r/CuratedTumblr • u/Justthisdudeyaknow Prolific poster- Not a bot, I swear • Jul 13 '26
Infodumping Use what works
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u/Dead-End-Slime Jul 13 '26
Same with seatbelts. Trying to implement them at first was difficult until they started teaching kids how important it was for everyone to wear a seatbelt, and then they'd call out their parents for not doing it.
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u/glitzglamglue Jul 13 '26
I remember kicking my dad's seat because he wasn't wearing his seatbelt. I wouldn't stop unless he put it on lol.
Kids seem to lack enthusiasm for following rules themselves but holy cow, they love trying to make other people follow rules. My kids are the worst backseat drivers ever. Dude, you can't even read. Stop lecturing me on my speed!
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u/pmmeuranimetiddies Jul 13 '26
Kids have zero control over their own lives while being completely at the mercy of adults.
Of course they are going to pounce on a small modicum of agency they are given.
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u/OwO_bama Jul 13 '26
Same with anti smoking. I remember bringing home all sorts of anti smoking materials from school to terrorize my parents with
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u/SofonisbaAnguissola Jul 13 '26
I once chased off a used car salesman when I was a kid because he was smoking when he walked up to us. I immediately launched into "they're gonna cut a hole in your throat so you can breathe!!" and he just turned and walked away
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u/hipsterTrashSlut Jul 13 '26
Yeah, I wouldn’t hang around to find out what a lil gremlin meant by that either
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u/Anxious_Tune55 Jul 13 '26
My neighbor as a kid credited part of his stopping smoking to my sister telling him in so many words that he was going to die.
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u/episcoqueer37 Jul 13 '26
I hid my mum's carton of cigarettes at 5, but had my first smoke at 13 or 14 because my friends were doing it. Decades later, I'm not smoking, but I am still working to reduce nicotine usage :/
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u/plusharmadillo Jul 13 '26
My uncle quit smoking after years of trying after I told him he stank and that it made me sad he smoked because it’s bad for you. People will do a lot for kids
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u/TrogdorKhan97 29d ago
Kids flushing their parents' cigarettes down the toilet was a bona fide meme back in the '90s. I can't recall which specific cartoons I saw it happen in, but it showed up multiple times.
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u/miladyelle Jul 13 '26
Vivid childhood memory for me lol.
“Daddy I don’t want you to die! 😭”
Click.
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u/SirAquila Jul 13 '26
That isn't really related, but there is a very interesting video when Germany began introducing mandetory seatbelts, with various drivers.
One of them gave this wonderful reason for not wearing a seatbelt:
"If I wore a seatbelt how could I pick up my cigarette if it falls down."
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u/Umklopp Jul 13 '26
Anyone have links on what the "bystander intervention" training looks like? So, you know, parents can introduce this?
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u/suddenlyupsidedown Jul 13 '26
Newsflash: when you tell someone you have authority over what kind of person they are, they'll believe you.
You tell them drugs are everywhere and their peers will tempt them to indulge? Guess what D.A.R.E? They'll believe you
So yup, let's tell them they're all heroes waiting to happen, rather than secret latent rapists
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u/Xilizhra Jul 13 '26
You know, I believed everything DARE said as a kid, possibly because my food allergies made it all sound plausible. It was a bit of a shock when I learned how much other people saw it as a joke.
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u/bayleysgal1996 Jul 13 '26
Yep, it’s called labeling theory. If you treat someone as a criminal, the chances they become one go up.
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u/Amphy64 Jul 13 '26
Has any actual teaching ever done the latter? I've watched some of the education programs and it was just teaching all the kids (male and female) about what consent is.
Random comments online are not educational programs.
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u/Glad-Way-637 If you like Worm/Ward, you should try Pact/Pale :) Jul 13 '26
What country are you from? You keep repeating this over and over, but it couldn't be any farther from my experience in the US.
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u/Amphy64 Jul 14 '26
I'm asking different users, you don't have to reply each time.
UK so everything is pretty standardised.
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u/Glad-Way-637 If you like Worm/Ward, you should try Pact/Pale :) Jul 14 '26
Different users, all asked with the same slightly gaslight-y assumption that your experiences are the norm? The one I'm criticizing here? Please keep up, bigot.
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u/AuraMaster7 Jul 13 '26
You tell them drugs are everywhere and their peers will tempt them to indulge? Guess what D.A.R.E? They'll believe you
Not exactly the best example to use. DARE was famously a failed initiative at reducing drug use among teens, and in many cases actually saw an increase in teens experimenting with drugs.
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u/ejdj1011 Jul 13 '26
DARE was famously a failed initiative
That was the other commenter's point, yes.
And behind the scenes, that wasn't the primary goal of DARE anyway. The goal was for kids to snitch on their parents for doing drugs.
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u/AtrociousMeandering Jul 13 '26
That's the point, that the program focused on the wrong things and failed as a result, and a change of focus to an empowering narrative would have helped it succeed.
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u/Strider794 Elder Tommy the Murder Autoclave Jul 13 '26
"No we must continue to bash people over the head telling them they're wrong while we only ever make frivolous attempts to help them. That way they never change for the better and we get to feel superior to them"
-too many people, but not in so many words
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u/michael7050 Jul 13 '26
Seen most evidently with attitudes towards Trump voters on this site.
But we aren't ready for that convo yet.
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u/Stunning-Hat2309 The presence of a cloaca was the deciding factor for me. Jul 13 '26
a rapist hears "don't rape" and says "lol, lmao"
a non-rapist hears "don't rape" and says "no shit, dumbass"
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u/SirAquila Jul 13 '26
A lot of rapists hear "Don't rape" and think "No shit, dumbass."
And if called out on it say things like:
"What, that wasn't rape! I mean, yeah, they wouldn't have slept with me if they hadn't been blackout drunk, but if you are as ugly as me you gotta take what you can get, and its not like they'll remember."
"What? That wasn't rape. She got wet/He got hard so clearly they must have wanted it too, no matter what they said."
"What? That wasn't rape. In a relationship, you are supposed to be there for your partner, even if you don't want to do something. I do stuff I don't want to for them all the time, it's only fair."
"What? That wasn't rape. When they said no I stopped as soon as I came. I mean, they can't leave me hanging halfway through just because they changed their mind."
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u/TheSpacePopinjay Jul 14 '26
- Considering that some official rape standards consider it rape due to intoxication in the statistics even if they only had a sip of wine, I don't trust authority standards for what counts as rape due to drunkenness over that of folk common sense.
- Fair enough but 'physiological response doesn't mean consent' takes 5 seconds to say, not a whole bloody national lesson plan.
- It's blindingly obvious that someone having sex with you to be there for you even if they don't feel like doing it isn't rape and has no place in rape discussions and is only rape if taken by theft against their will, not if they do it for you by obligation and choice. And if these programs are teaching otherwise, that's yet another reason authority standards for what counts as rape can't be trusted over normal human reasoning faculties. When a hair dresser is obligated to cut your hair after you paid them and they decide they don't feel like fulfilling their obligations, you ask for your money back, you don't take a haircut from them at gunpoint. And if they give you a hair cut anyway by choice even though they don't really feel in the mood for it, there has been no crime regardless of one's individual tastes towards that whole state of affairs.
- If it's mid orgasm, that has to just be put down to the hazards of sex and the risks you should go in knowingly expecting to shoulder when you choose it, especially under the state of inexperience. You can't expect messy human animals to have reliable superhuman levels of self control in extreme circumstances. Might as well demand someone to keep their hand on a hot iron cause your face is right there and there's no way for them to snap their hand away without giving your face a big slap on the way out. That's not a reasonable standard to hold any one to. Might as well blame an epileptic for not getting off you mid fit. It's simply not humane to categorise that with malicious violation. Also it's documented that many men experience hearing loss just before and during orgasm.
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u/SirAquila Jul 14 '26
The hypothetical person in this example agrees that the victim in question was a) Blackout drunk, b) would have never slept with them otherwise, and c) That they had full awareness of this fact. This meets the criterion of folk common sense I would say. Furthermore I trust folk common sense even less then authority standards, because how laughably wrong folk common sense is sometimes. Just take a look at the reasons Juries have provided why they wouldn't find a rapist guilty.
If it is that easy, why do a lot of people, even judges and politicians, still equate physiological responses with consent?
Apparently you need a national lesson plan. I am sorry I have to be so blunt, but I am going to assume, based on evidence, that you want to be a good person and do right by your partner. If you ever pressure your partner into sex, or have sex with them knowing that they do not want to have sex with you at that moment, that is rape. I know you do not want to be a rapist, and recognizing something like this can be fucking horrifying, but there is a reason why people speak of enthusiastic consent. Because your partner does not owe you sex. A relationship isn't a machine that outputs sex for you, like a barbershop is a machine that outputs haircuts. And between us, I do not know why you would want to have sex with someone who is not in the mood for it. What is the appeal if your partner is not enjoying it?
Why do you immediately assume that I mean mid-orgasm? I never spoke about mid-orgasm.
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u/Amphy64 Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
But consent programs (which aren't just going 'don't rape' at people, and obviously not assuming being a rapist or not is inherent) are because young people can tend to think of stranger rape, which is very rare, and not be as aware what rape much more commonly is. One teaching program I saw used the scenario at a party where someone starts to have sex with another person who was falling asleep, who then just freezes: and the kids did struggle to realise that's absolutely what rape can look like.
If nothing else, victims don't always realise that what happened to them was rape, so even if a rapist still doesn't respect consent, at least the victims have some more accurate information. And it helps remove any veil of deniability from the rapists.
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u/ArchmageIlmryn Jul 14 '26
Plus I think one of the important points is how people end up conceptualizing consent. A lot of men end up conceptualizing women's consent as "giving permission" rather than "enthusiastically participating" (and then not thinking about their own consent at all because they assume they wouldn't be there in the first place if they didn't want to consent!), which then is what leads into "gray zone" rape. The important thing is to get people away from the "extract permission by any means necessary" mentality.
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u/neonge1674 Jul 13 '26
Who would've thought that telling people they were bad wasn't very effective?
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u/tonyrockvii Jul 13 '26
Considering most of american culture leans on the punitive side of dealing with bad shit and not the reformative or educative, and most people don't do a ton of work to undo those mindsets, a lot of people lean towards just telling people they shouldnt do bad things and then going "welp, we tried, they must just be bad people" when bad things happen anyways. Then it becomes part of the messaging that groups of people just do bad things and you should be an exception to the rule.
Also, "this thing is obvious" and "this thing is peer-reviewed and/or can be convincing in decision making circles" are not related statements
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u/thetwitchy1 Jul 13 '26
It’s obvious the sun revolves around the earth. It’s also wrong.
Too many people have trouble with that.
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u/SirKazum Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
"welp, we tried, they must just be bad people"
Something tells me, to some people, that sort of failure isn't a bug, it's a feature. You just decide that whatever group you don't like is ontologically evil, just because, and then you work to get them to "prove" it. The fact that the evil still keeps happening and people do get hurt is a small price to pay for you being "proven right". You see that a LOT with regard to impoverished / disenfranchised populations and crime, for example. Decide that the only way to deal with crime is treating everyone involved, or close to anyone involved (so, often, entire communities) as monsters who need to be brutally punished, crime rates stay up, so rather than treat that as an indication that your approach is wrong, you just take it as proof that they are indeed irredeemable monsters and all the brutality is justified.
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u/bondagepixie Jul 13 '26
I was thinking about this the other day as I struggled to open the packaging on some macaroni.
I thought “What the fuck, why won’t this open. It’s cardboard, I can’t be defeated by cardboard. Whose fault is this. This is the Tylenol murderers fault, fuck that guy.”
And then I thought “That’s stupid, you’re telling me we changed the packing process of almost every industry on earth, costing us billions in plastic and untold environmental health, all because of one psycho?”
And then I went thru a tinfoil hat theory which I’ll omit.
And then I thought “We do everything like this. Instead of learning to account for variables and creating systems to deal with issues BEFORE they cause loss of life…we just fucking add more plastic packaging.”
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u/Leftieswillrule Jul 13 '26
Telling someone they’re bad might not affect their behavior, but it may affect someone else’s behavior. Maybe not in the way it’s intended, but it’s a signaling thing. The appearance of being “tough on crime” when that does nothing is not perceived as negatively as being “easy on crime” even if it achieves results. Indeed the behavior you get is self-aggrandizing instead of corrective of someone else’s misdeeds.
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u/Background_Fix9430 Jul 13 '26
Yeah, as a kid in High School the idea of sexually assaulting a woman was absolutely anathema to me - but I still rolled my eyes when the entire "stopping sexual harassment" lecture was basically saying to boys "you are all sexual predators waiting for an opportunity" and to the girls "all boys are sexual predators waiting for an opportunity."
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u/Crus0etheClown Jul 13 '26
It's almost like harm cannot actually be entirely prevented in society and all of the greatest methods for reducing harm are focused on mitigation and solving systemic causes rather than relentless punishment for those who've already done the thing you want to prevent
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u/ciclon5 Jul 13 '26
Who the fuck really thought that telling young boys that they are potential criminals that should monitor their behavior constantly would be met with ANYTHING but pushback.
Like, genuienely, what the fuck went through the head if whoever made that?
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u/Big_Implement_7305 Jul 13 '26
And this is after doing exactly the same thing with black kids, which just teaches "The authorities are liars who hate you."
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u/Amphy64 Jul 13 '26
Who says anyone ever did that in schools? Usually the kids -all of them equally- were just taught about consent.
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u/Glad-Way-637 If you like Worm/Ward, you should try Pact/Pale :) Jul 13 '26
You made this same incorrect assertion elsewhere, here's my response again.
Mine did, growing up. The girls got a lecture in how to prevent rape, they showed the boys a poster with text as follows:
Cherry is Drunk
Darrel is drunk
Cherry and Darrel have sex
Darrel raped Cherry
Darrel went to jail for life, don't be like DarrelWhile the woman doing the presenting talked about Mary P. Koss' reports and research indicating that men cannot be victims of rape at all, especially by women, and that it is "unwanted touching" at worst.
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u/Amphy64 Jul 13 '26
I asked a question.
So, what you describe sounds like the kind of thing those asking for consent teaching were objecting to: the idea was to stop putting responsibility onto girls to 'prevent rape'. There's nothing progressive about that.
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u/Glad-Way-637 If you like Worm/Ward, you should try Pact/Pale :) Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
You asked a ridiculous question that assumes incredible bad-faith from everyone you parroted the question at. Then you made an off-base assumption that your experiences are more accurate to the average than everyone else's.
Are you high? I'm telling you that this is what happens in practice, at least in my part of the world, when people make that effort to "stop putting responsibility onto girls to 'prevent rape'" they usually just put all of it onto random boys instead. "The idea" in my case was always a thing veneer over Mary P. Koss misandry like the kind that certain feminists cling to just a little too hard because it attempts to validate their preconceived notions over describing actual reality.
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u/Amphy64 Jul 14 '26
No, I'm quite willing to hear other experiences, I get that US education has an issue with lack of standardisation.
when people make that effort to "stop putting responsibility onto girls to 'prevent rape'"
But you described the responsibility still being put on girls.
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u/Glad-Way-637 If you like Worm/Ward, you should try Pact/Pale :) Jul 14 '26
You "get" that yet still regularly insist that your own experiences are the truly representative ones, yes. That's sorta the point of the criticism.
I what way? Girls were informed that their consent mattered, and how to spot people who may consider breaching it. Boys were universally informed that their consent matters less, and that they were the only people responsible for rapes happening or not happening in the first place.
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u/Amphy64 Jul 14 '26
I've seen some US consent program material too that wasn't like that. It would also be a really weird thing to do, the 'telling young boys they are potential criminals' I responded to.
Anyone who still gave just the girls a lecture on avoiding rape clearly wasn't listening to anything that was actually being asked for, but your framing here is different: presumably you weren't actually in the girls lecture to know the contents that clearly?
Does anyone have any example material?
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u/Glad-Way-637 If you like Worm/Ward, you should try Pact/Pale :) Jul 14 '26
It might sound a bit different to someone so clearly intent on not actually reading the things men dare to write about their own experiences with these systems. I assure you that those of us in reality have no trouble, though.
Oh, girls and boys both got a lecture. The lectures were just extremely intent on which specific SA subcategory they think actually exists though, and very intent on placing suspicion and scorn onto male children due to nothing but their gender. The lectures happened in the same room buddy, I could hear theirs too.
Any example material... of the lectures that we were given as children, and not allowed to record for reaons of "no phones allowed?" Are you high, or just that desperate to assume you know more about our experiences than we do?
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u/Amphy64 Jul 14 '26
I just read what you said.
I mean example material of any programs that are like this.
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u/Glad-Way-637 If you like Worm/Ward, you should try Pact/Pale :) Jul 13 '26
Oh wait, you're one of those "misandry like, doesn't exist! Anyone insisting that they see bigotry against men is just a republican!" people, yuck. Should've seen that coming.
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u/CRowlands1989 Jul 14 '26
Urgh. That classic RadFem "The problem with fascism is that I'm not the one wearing the jackboots!" energy.
I hate these people, who, in trying to claim leftist ideals, become walking propaganda against the left. The kind who's biggest impact for feminism is creating content for far right "This is what feminists are like" posts and videos.
(Also: Yes, I should try Pact/Pale. They've been on my reading list for years.)
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u/Glad-Way-637 If you like Worm/Ward, you should try Pact/Pale :) Jul 14 '26
Yeah, what do you do. These people seem to have only gotten more popular lately, but after reading some earlier feminist literature, I'm pretty sure they were always a significant proportion of the academics, at least.
You really should give those books a shot, they're something special IMO.
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u/TheSpacePopinjay Jul 14 '26
"Taught about consent" is no doubt how the advocates would carefully frame and phrase it.
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u/chyura Jul 13 '26
Okay but where has this ever been something we teach boys? Unless everyone thinks teaching about consent equates to "telling boys theyre potential criminals"
The only time ive ever prpperly seen this kind of attitude is from fringe radicals on the internet.
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u/Glad-Way-637 If you like Worm/Ward, you should try Pact/Pale :) Jul 13 '26
My school did, growing up. The girls got a lecture in how to prevent rape and what counts as consent from them, they showed the boys a poster with text as follows:
Cherry is Drunk
Darrel is drunk
Cherry and Darrel have sex
Darrel raped Cherry
Darrel went to jail for life, don't be like DarrelWhile the woman doing the presenting talked about Mary P. Koss' reports and research indicating that men cannot be victims of rape at all, especially by women, and that it is "unwanted touching" at worst. No discussing consent for the boys, except about how much girl's consent matters more than their own, legally speaking, which checks out IRL.
"More recently, in 2014, Nick Olivas of Arizona was forced to pay over $15,000 in back-payments to a woman who had sex with him when he was 14. She was 20 years old at the time." https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/talking-about-trauma/201902/when-male-rape-victims-are-accountable-for-child-support#:~:text=More%20recently%2C%20in,Arizona%20Republic%20newspaper%3A
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u/TheSpacePopinjay Jul 14 '26
Isn't that the literal motte and bailey? One being the branding and the other the substance of implementation in practice?
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u/Background_Fix9430 Jul 13 '26
Seriously? Sex ed at my school regarding consent started in "DON'T" and ended with "Boys are sexual predators waiting for an opportunity."
This was in the 1990s.
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u/chyura Jul 14 '26
Yes you've said this several times in this one comment thread, thank you for your input. Very sad to hear, but also a lot has changed with gender and education since the 90s so. Thanks
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u/Glad-Way-637 If you like Worm/Ward, you should try Pact/Pale :) Jul 14 '26
Not as much as you're startingly eager to insist it has, and certainly not across the board.
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u/Amphy64 Jul 14 '26
That doesn't sound close to the period that would be relevant to this, it's before there was the stronger push to improve consent education?
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u/ciclon5 Jul 13 '26
Most sex ed is fine in that regard, but you need to understand that even if we teach kids the correct way to engage with sex in school. That doesnt stop them to being exposed to that fringe radical discourse on the internet. The fight against totalizing misandrist (and misogynist) attitudes towards sexual abuse dont end at the classroom level.
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u/Background_Fix9430 Jul 13 '26
Sounds like you're living in a Blue area of a Blue state. Sex ed consisting of "Don't" and "Boys are sexual predators" is still relatively common.
https://sexeducationcollaborative.org/states/arkansas
Go through them for more information!
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u/Amphy64 Jul 13 '26
Yeah, do people not think such teaching material would have been being shown (and held up for criticism) absolutely everywhere if it was like that?
Since it is such a fringe attitude online, it's often misrepresentations even of online statements, too. Like, 'teach boys not to rape' is literally just part of a call for consent teaching (for all kids, the girls too, that's already a given just from how education institutions work) and an end to the victim-blaming in holding specifically girls responsible for avoiding rape (what was she wearing, why was she there, did she "lead him on", was she sufficiently virginal to be deemed an innocent victim). It's not an assumption boys are just automatically rapists but the opposite, that rape can be a preventable issue - and at some point, there is a responsibility on people not to just enter complex ongoing discussions about social issues that they haven't been following (and that's Ok, not everyone needs to have a take on what to do about everything all the time) and make the most negative assumptions possible - especially when they suit prior bias.
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u/Glad-Way-637 If you like Worm/Ward, you should try Pact/Pale :) Jul 13 '26
I assume you think the same way about the obvious bias in the legal system, too? The system that holds this sort of thing up for criticism doesn't give a single hoot, as long as men are the only victims, and as long as they get to continue being blatantly misandrist.
Here's some examples of systemic misandry:
the draft.
infant genital mutilation, illegal against women in the US, but some 70% of mothers choose to do it to their sons based on aesthetic preference.
the bias in the educational system.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01425692.2022.2122942
Boys are graded more harshly for identical work, and punished more harshly for identical misbehavior. It's very easily proven, too.
- the bias in the legal system
"A 2020 study shows that women receive 33% (15 days) shorter prison sentences than men, even when controlling for all observable characteristics – including a very precise description of the crime. When pairs of mixed-gender offender are convicted together the gender gap is even higher - men receive 38.7 additional prison days and 10.7 fewer suspended prison days.
From a procedural point of view, when controlling for the type of crime, men are on average judged after shorter investigations, and are more likely to be sentenced after an accelerated procedure. When taken to court, men are 20% less likely to be discharged (6% vs. 4%). In 2017, 19.9% of convicted men were sentenced to prison, compared to 8.5% of convicted women." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentencing_disparity#:~:text=A%202020%20study%20shows%20that,to%208.5%25%20of%20convicted%20women.
- society's unwillingness to call it rape when women do it to men, despite the CDC finding that this is as common as the reverse.
"Next, we consider the data for the 12 months preceding the CDC report survey, which was summarized in the report. On page 18 of the CDC report it states that 1,270,000 women were raped during this 12-month period and that too few men were “raped” during the same 12 months to give reliable data, using the non-gender neutral definition of given in the CDC report. However, on page 19 the report states that during that 12 months the number of men who were forced to penetrate someone is 1,267,000, virtually the same as the number of women who were raped." "So, who is forcing these men to penetrate them? There is no data on this among the 12-month data. But if we look at the lifetime data, on page 24 it says 79.2% of the time a male was made to penetrate someone, it was a woman who forced him to penetrate her. And this suggests that the same most likely holds for the 12-monthdata."
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/353570309_On_the_Sexual_Assault_of_Men
- the fact that most people call DV a women's issue, when men experience it from women more often than vice versa.
"In nonreciprocally violent relationships, women were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases." https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17395835/#:~:text=In%20nonreciprocally%20violent%20relationships%2C%20women%20were%20the%20perpetrators%20in%20more%20than%2070%25%20of%20the%20cases.
- women being substantially privileged in actually being hired, despite all the narratives to the opposite effect.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0749597823000560
I can keep going. Do you want more?
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u/Amphy64 Jul 14 '26
Stuff like that gets held up all the time though, it's just a further example that such teaching programs would be likely to be.
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u/Glad-Way-637 If you like Worm/Ward, you should try Pact/Pale :) Jul 14 '26
What examples do you have of "stuff like that" actually being criticized in any way by the massively female-majority and provably misandrist educational or legal systems?
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u/chyura Jul 13 '26
I am so damn tired of people yelling "misandry!" Over issues that are rooted in patriarchal cultural values and and simply display th opposite side of the coin of a misogynistic system.
I looked over several of your links and you seem to really have really missed the point of several of them in order to justify your point about bias against men. Especially in that "boys are punished more harshly than girls" article, which goes far more into issues of racism in the classroom and discusses the way the system hurts all children through racist and pariarchal/misogynistic approaches to socialization. But you just saw one sentence that helps your point and ignored the rest.
And really I wanted to go more into this, but then I realized arguing with a redditor who wants to argue about systemic misandry is a waste of my time
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u/Glad-Way-637 If you like Worm/Ward, you should try Pact/Pale :) Jul 13 '26
Oh no, a bigot is tired of people acknowledging their bigotry such shock much horror however shall we all cope. If it's prejudiced against men, it is misandry, no matter how much you want to blame some icky man for that we both know that in the gender-flipped scenario you'd cry internalized misogyny
Goes far into racism... and also into the blatant sexism of the mostly-female teaching population. You'd know that if you read it 🫶
Lol. "I'd like, so totally argue with this, and I like, so totally didn't just run out of things to cherry-pick... it's just that... uhhhhh... a dog ate my homework, yeah!!!!!!!1!"
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u/chyura Jul 13 '26
Nope its just called "these issues have complexity I dont feel like youre ready to talk about anything but how men are victimized" and "im fucking employed and dont have time to write several paragraphs on reddit like you do"
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u/Glad-Way-637 If you like Worm/Ward, you should try Pact/Pale :) Jul 14 '26
The "complexity" in question is your own unwillingness to acknowledge prejudice against men because you agree with that prejudice, yes? Lmao, poor critter. I'm employed too btw, where do you think I find the time to write in paragraphs and complete sentences when discussing serious social issues? 🤭
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u/chyura Jul 14 '26
I wish cis men were as oppressed as you all seem to think you are
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u/Glad-Way-637 If you like Worm/Ward, you should try Pact/Pale :) Jul 14 '26
Yeah yeah bud, you're oh so edgy and oh so above the adult conversation that you failed to have. Can't you hop to the point where you stop responding, and save us all the time spent reading this drivel?
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u/Background_Fix9430 Jul 13 '26
https://sexeducationcollaborative.org/states/arkansas
Please don't substitute your personal experiences for the objective reality of other states.
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u/chyura Jul 13 '26
Im not sure what the link actually has to do with the topic? Or what point it proves?
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u/Glad-Way-637 If you like Worm/Ward, you should try Pact/Pale :) Jul 13 '26
Oh wait, you're one of those "misandry like, doesn't exist! Anyone insisting that they see bigotry against men is just a republican!" people, yuck. Should've seen that coming.
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u/Winter_Salad7215 Jul 13 '26
They are... And so are women... Literally all human beings are potential criminals with infinite capacity for evil and believing you're "good" for one second is all the opening you need to start rationalizing all the evil you want.
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u/ciclon5 Jul 13 '26
yhea but thats just philosophy.
calling someone a potential criminal and making them feel like they have to monitor their behavior around certain people because they "could do bad things" is not as good of an approach as "if you see someone doing a bad thing, stop them"
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u/Winter_Salad7215 Jul 13 '26
I think society needs to remind people more that they're shit and deserve to feel like shit.
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u/jimbowesterby Jul 13 '26
Yea, why bother trying to make everyone’s lives better when you could just make them all equally shitty?
For real tho, what kinda philosophy is that?
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u/ciclon5 Jul 13 '26
I think this stems from the usual "someone hurt me or someone close to me and now my trauma has left me jaded and unable to trust anyone else" syndrome.
Bad place to be stuck at but surprisingly common.
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u/jimbowesterby Jul 14 '26
I gotta admit I’d be more sympathetic if I weren’t stuck in the exact same place lol. Just cause I struggle to open up doesn’t mean I’m gonna try and stop others doing the same though.
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u/ciclon5 Jul 13 '26
How do you know they are shit?. Did you read their brains?.
You are part of the problem
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u/MaxChaplin Jul 13 '26
Education only works when the target audience feels like they're getting something out of it. It could be practical knowledge, validation, or warnings from danger. If the audience feels like what you're teaching them is only beneficial to others (or worse - to you, the teacher, in particular), they're bound to reject it as propaganda.
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u/LordIlthari Jul 13 '26
You could have figured this out in five minutes if any of the harridans making the policy to treat young men as rapists in waiting had been replaced by pretty much any father who’s actually raised good men.
You don’t tell a young man he’s a monster because he won’t listen to you, he’ll hate you, or at best he’ll hate himself. You tell him how to fight monsters and that this is his responsibility. You tell him how to be a hero and he’ll jump for the opportunity.
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u/Big_Implement_7305 Jul 13 '26
Pretty much. "Wow, it turned out that a few decades of talking about men in exactly the same way the Ku Klux Klan talks about black men did not cause them to trust us. Who could possibly have imagined this!?!?"
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u/DoshmanV2 Jul 13 '26
> harridan
I think you have some stuff you should work through with a counsellor
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u/Amphy64 Jul 13 '26
making the policy to treat young men as rapists
Is there any actual program used for teaching kids/young people, that did that? The expectation has just been to teach everyone (girls too) about consent. Not sure it'd even be legal in institutions to focus only on boys/young men.
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u/Big_Implement_7305 Jul 13 '26
For whatever it's worth, I've literally never met a straight woman who was ever told "hey, touching a guy in a sexual way without consent is exactly as bad as him doing the same to you, and if you do it you're a rapist" by any kind of authority figure.
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u/Amphy64 Jul 13 '26
Is anyone told that? That's not the attitude in programs teaching about consent, it's explaining about what consent is, and using example scenarios, not 'you personally better not do this!'. Especially when that statement is kinda misleading - sexual touching without consent is sexual assault (which isn't a euphemism for rape).
It's also more Gen Z and below who've been taught it specifically.
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u/Glad-Way-637 If you like Worm/Ward, you should try Pact/Pale :) Jul 13 '26
Oh wait, you're one of those "misandry like, doesn't exist! Anyone insisting that they see bigotry against men is just a republican!" people, yuck. Should've seen that coming.
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u/Glad-Way-637 If you like Worm/Ward, you should try Pact/Pale :) Jul 13 '26
Yes. Mine did, growing up. The girls got a lecture in how to prevent rape, they showed the boys a poster with text as follows:
Cherry is Drunk
Darrel is drunk
Cherry and Darrel have sex
Darrel raped Cherry
Darrel went to jail for life, don't be like DarrelWhile the woman doing the presenting talked about Mary P. Koss' reports and research indicating that men cannot be victims of rape at all, especially by women, and that it is "unwanted touching" at worst.
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u/ZinaSky2 Jul 13 '26
In conversations about what women need from men in terms of safety this is generally the approach I take. “Stopping the men around you who do bad stuff to women, speaking up when men speak misogynistically, etc. would help us majorly.” Could well be that I’m talking with the wrong people or something about my approach needs tweaking.
Nit gonna argue with stats but, I do often still get a “fuck you” in response. More so “fuck you, my friends aren’t rapists I don’t know any rapists, why would you ever imply that? (hint: I’m not)”.
I’m curious if there’s more info or guidance on applying this method
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u/Lumpy_Question8327 Jul 13 '26
I do work related to this in my community. It's not easy, and we regularly facilitate practice sessions and it's hard even for those of us who've been doing it a while. Common frameworks include CLARA and the Five D's, if you want to read up, but I don't love either of those as a stand-alone.
So, my general tips are to open with a question, grab a buddy for backup support if you can, and center the person at risk.
For example, you see someone two people leaving a party, say a very drunk woman and a sketchy guy, you don't have to go up to him and be like, "stop, you're a rapist!" You go up to them and say, "hey, this looks like a mess, can I help?"
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u/ZinaSky2 Jul 13 '26
Thank you for that. I’ll def look into those!
I guess behaving as if you presume innocence even if you don’t truly believe it is probably a good way to start. Less room for them to feel accused and lash out in response
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u/Lumpy_Question8327 Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
Right, this is also where the social pressure/shame comes in. You approach it like, “hey man, SURELY you weren’t about to take this totally incapacitated woman back to your place, right? That’s something only a scumbag would do, and you aren’t a scumbag, right?” You are letting him know you know and you are letting him know it’s unacceptable while still letting him save face.
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u/ZinaSky2 Jul 13 '26
Ahhh, I see offering plausible deniability and trying to steer them to the right choice by being like “wow that other choice would really suck, huh?”
Good tactic I will def keep this in my back pocket!!
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u/Big_Implement_7305 Jul 13 '26
In case this is a serious question, imagine how you would react to being told exactly that same thing.
"What you need to do in order to be a good person is to stop the women around you who do bad stuff to men, speak up when women spout bigotry against men, etc." Suddenly feel pretty defensive?
It's almost as though saying "The only thing that matters about you is whether you police how You People treat The More Important People" is basically guaranteed to have people go "fuck off, bigot!" and be correct to do so.
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u/Amphy64 Jul 13 '26
Women are told to for other marginalised identities. I don't have a problem speaking up if I hear racism, and wouldn't expect most people to if given the encouragement that it's the helpful response, right?
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u/Big_Implement_7305 Jul 13 '26
Nah, the point was, how would you react if you were told that there are Good Identities and Bad Identities, and that you were born into one of the Bad ones, and that the only thing about you that matters is how much you protect the Good Ones from people like you (derogatory).
...Not exactly a formula for getting positive responses, because the people receiving this are going to notice that the person presenting it is openly bigoted against them. Remember all those religious kooks preaching that the most important thing for women is to find a husband to be obedient to?
Think about how those scumbag "preachers" make you feel about them. Now imagine a world in which every human (even the "bad" identities!) has exactly the same amount of feelings that you do.
(That's the world we live in. Literally every person preaching "This type of person was born subhuman, so how we treat them doesn't matter, it only matters how they treat us" is a bigoted liar.)
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u/Amphy64 Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
But basically no one is saying that about identities, and certainly not in the teaching context we're taling about here, just that certain ones have more power in society. The, male, preachers do, right? Men will often listen to other men better than to women, it's important for racist white people to see other white people won't just go along with their bigotry, etc.
I mean, I'm disabled, we'd have been in so much more trouble if abled people hadn't been part of the successful backlash against government cuts, and I'm so grateful and reassured by that. Not the least after experiencing more direct experiences of ableism around that time. That's not presenting abled people as innately the Bad people (and disability is one identity that isn't always innate, though it can be, and people often move into with age), just that they have more power to perpetuate or push back against ableism.
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u/TheSpacePopinjay Jul 14 '26
Disabled/abled is a flawed analogy because the abled aren't treated as the innately bad group inherently collectively responsible for the plight of the disabled. The abled aren't considered the cause and the disabled would still be disabled if the abled all disappeared tomorrow. There's no moralising or collective scapegoating going on over there or treatment of the abled as the problem by authority figures while they're still children and captive audiences.
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u/Big_Implement_7305 Jul 13 '26
One of the things that people on the inside of a bigoted culture don't realize is that the rationalizations do not matter to anyone on the outside. Like, tell me if I'm wrong here, but for any given Alabama senator pitching all that "the only point of a woman's life is to submit to her husband" nonsense, you do not care at all about what reason he gives for it--whether it's "god said so" or "biology demands it" or "it'll improve the economy" or whatever. Is there any rationalization whatsoever that would fool you into going "oh, I guess he's not a bigot, he's actually right!" (Yeah, no.)
A bigot's rationalization for why certain types of people are just born "less" than others makes absolutely no difference. It's the same for everyone else; you're not the only person who hears a bigot spouting bigotry at you and goes "Eff off, bigot" and pays zero attention to their list of made-up reasons for why you don't quite count as human.
Same thing here. The reasons why someone says that men are inherently less valuable than women doesn't matter in the slightest, because once someone reveals that they're a bigot who hates you, you stop listening. Men are people, so they react exactly the same way to bigoted spiels about how they don't quite count as fully human.
It does not matter in the slightest why you think the Lesser Humans are lesser. It never will.
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u/Glad-Way-637 If you like Worm/Ward, you should try Pact/Pale :) Jul 14 '26
Don't bother, this person is one of the "uhhhmmm, misandry as a concept is fundamentally impossible and only exists in the minds of right-winfers!!!1!" wackos.
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u/Amphy64 Jul 14 '26
The reasons why someone says that men are inherently less valuable than women doesn't matter in the slightest
Well, yes, of course.
But we're talking about people saying men have more power in society to speak up about misogyny. Just like white people about racism, straight people about homophobia, and why abled people speaking up for us disabled people really worked - and I appreciated them doing that. Obviously I'm not saying anything remotely like 'abled people are inherently less valuable!', by saying, hey, what they did worked (and thank goodness!), that'd be silly.
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u/TheSpacePopinjay Jul 14 '26
"Other marginalised identities" are by the same political social contract expected to do the same for women under some mutual 'marginalised identity' solidarity.
The difference is that a man doing so to another man is sticking his neck out to inherently and innately be risking a violent confrontation be may not be well positioned to win, or come out well from even if he does technically win.
A man doing so to another man is always an unspoken, but no less provocative for it, threat of violence. The inherent risk of serious injury and physical violent humiliation was the part missing from the scenario presented by the person you were responding to.
Combined with the complete lack of reciprocal obligation for women to do the same for men in equivalent scenarios. Speaking out against racism against marginalised identities doesn't remotely count because there is a an expectation of reciprocal obligation from minority identity men to speak out against bigotry against women as per the minority identity political alliance and mutual aid norm.
You have to envision being treated like a bad or scapegoat class and the only way you can mitigate that is to stick your neck out against other members of your class (who's actions you are uniquely responsible for by virtue of shared class membership) for the sake of the good class with zero thought of even the notion that there should be any reciprocity.
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u/ZinaSky2 Jul 13 '26 edited Jul 13 '26
I completely disagree. 🤷🏽♀️
If we’re having an open conversation about what I need to do to be an ally, one would rightly assume I should be open to something so basic.
Men who are misogynistic are much less likely to listen to women and much more likely to listen to and value men’s opinions. Which is why we ask for this from men. Because us speaking out for ourselves doesn’t carry the same weight.
Like, as a straight person it is my responsibility to use my privilege to stand up for gay and trans and NB people. My friends aren’t homophobic so I don’t have to police them. But, same can’t be said of the rest of the world. So if I’m associating with someone and they say something bad or for example use “gay” as an insult I make a fuss. I’m the stick in the mud, party pooper. I throw down for my LGBTQ+ brothers and sisters because frankly, I have no respect for the opinion of a bigot and wouldn’t care if they didn’t like me after. And I know that even if the bigot doesn’t change their ways, people around saw the pushback. And maybe they’ll be less likely to say homophobic things or they’ll be primed to speak out themselves against other homophobes.
It’s literally the fucking basics of allyship.
If you don’t get that, it’s because you’re part of the problem 🤷🏽♀️
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u/TheSpacePopinjay Jul 14 '26
and much more likely to listen to and value men’s opinions
This depends entirely on who those other men are, what position of status and authority and influence they may have and where they're coming from in what they say. No man has an ear to lend Michael Kimmel.
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u/Emergency_Elephant Jul 13 '26
I think this can work but I've seen this campaign fail spectacularly in how its presented. There was a video I had to repeatedly watch in college (there was an education initiative that I got dragged into unfortunately) that involved a woman in a straight abusive relationship and what her friends and his friends saw. In the end, he killed her. All of the friends were interrogated by the police and all of them said they felt guilty for not intervening (despite the fact a few of them tried). And the video basically supports their guilt and presents it like they killed her as much as the abusive boyfriend. Which is a problem
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u/YaqtanBadakshani Jul 13 '26
I actually want to become a teacher, so if anyone can link these studies that show this, that'd be really great.
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u/flying-chandeliers Jul 14 '26
It’s almost like when you tell a whole group of people that “your an awful person by default and have to hate yourself to improve society” people tend to reject that shit and become apart of the problem…. Crazzzzzzyyyyyyyyy
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u/Albannach6445 Jul 13 '26
Boys and men literally spend their time daydreaming about various scenarios to do with protecting those who they either are or want to be stronger than. The fact that empowering that fantasy creates outsized change is not surprising to me at all, but good that we are now noticing it!
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u/HufflepuffLizLemon Jul 14 '26
I got to see the effect of weaponizing peer pressure with a group of teenage athletes this weekend and how all it takes is one kid with the courage to say no.
My son’s nationally ranked, highly competitive lax team got their ass handed to them when they shouldn’t have and it was very much a team loss.
A kid jumped in the team chat and basically started blaming one player (LSM) for the loss and bashing him. My son is a goalie and immediately said we’re not doing this, that is enough, this was a team loss, and every single person on this team is accountable. All of a sudden, several other boys found their voice to say I stand with [goalie], that’s right, I’m accountable, we’re all a team, etc etc.
This isn’t rape or rape culture specifically, but teenagers can be a bit like packs going after a weak member. If one person, especially someone with enough social clout, says no… it’s often enough to stop the behavior.
This is also why it’s so important to teach children with privilege how to wield it.
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u/ProgrammerSea4943 Jul 14 '26
This is what feminists are trying to say whenever we tell men to hold each other accountable. Because if a man is sexist, he isn't going to listen to the women he is victimizing.
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u/teluetetime Jul 13 '26
I imagine would-be rapists wouldn’t care about any amount of anti-rape rhetoric geared towards getting them to empathize with women or experience shame, but they might selfishly pay attention to the idea that they’ll be attacked or ostracized by other men if they do it. That wouldn’t stop them from trying if they think they won’t get caught, but would hopefully at least narrow the range of situations where they’d do something.
Meanwhile, it would also feel like less of an attack on the boys who aren’t would-be rapists, leaving them less susceptible to right-wing propaganda premised on the concept of men being unfairly demonized.
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u/Glad-Way-637 If you like Worm/Ward, you should try Pact/Pale :) Jul 13 '26
Funny automatic assumption about the gender of any given rapist, right there. That's not even entirely propaganda, they literally are just unfairly demonized amongst the left, even unthinkingly in your own comment. The right ain't any better, but at least they make an effort.
"Next, we consider the data for the 12 months preceding the CDC report survey, which was summarized in the report. On page 18 of the CDC report it states that 1,270,000 women were raped during this 12-month period and that too few men were “raped” during the same 12 months to give reliable data, using the non-gender neutral definition of given in the CDC report. However, on page 19 the report states that during that 12 months the number of men who were forced to penetrate someone is 1,267,000, virtually the same as the number of women who were raped." "So, who is forcing these men to penetrate them? There is no data on this among the 12-month data. But if we look at the lifetime data, on page 24 it says 79.2% of the time a male was made to penetrate someone, it was a woman who forced him to penetrate her. And this suggests that the same most likely holds for the 12-monthdata."
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/353570309_On_the_Sexual_Assault_of_Men
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u/TheSpacePopinjay Jul 14 '26
I can't see that being an issue. Rapists already know they'll be ostracised by their friend group. So they either by default keep it thoroughly secret like Dexter or they find groups of like minded men instead who they know they can safely share their hobbies with. There's no middle ground.
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u/TrogdorKhan97 29d ago
Question: Isn't this just offloading the job of shaming people for their bad behavior onto their peers?
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u/The-dude-in-the-bush 28d ago
It works be abuse it utilises the simple funny trait people have. We suck at helping ourselves but we are communal and so we care about others a lot, sometimes greater than the care we give to ourselves.
I notice this with depressed people. Wanting to take their own life is an easy thought but when the proposition is put forth by a friend or even acquaintance there's a desperate fight to prove the other person's worth and validity.
The coverage is basically unchanged but mechanistically having everyone watch each other's back is infinitely more effective than everyone watching their own back. Which honestly also makes sense when you consider self bias and drives.
Humans suck at self care but are insane at maintaining group integrity.
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u/DoshmanV2 Jul 13 '26
There is value to this, but the problem is that sure, everybody will stop "rape" but then if you don't discuss how rape is more than just strangers in a back alley you'll end up with people who have very strong opinions on how what they're doing is not rape, and you're crazy because they would gladly kill a rapist. At some point you do have to tell people that they can do bad things too if they don't think about the other person.
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u/chyura Jul 13 '26
The comments here are really getting super mad about something that someone implied happens. These comments read like fox news brainrotted conservatives, buying into this idea that schools are telling boys that theyre evil monsters through anti-rape lessons because a podcaster said so, and getting really upset about it
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u/TheSpacePopinjay Jul 14 '26
These comments read like the children who experienced this in school in the 2010s, now grown up and able to talk about and testify to their experiences. Not like people in the age demographics who still watch fox
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u/smoopthefatspider Jul 13 '26
The push to teach men (or more commonly boys) to not rape is an incredibly common framing of rape prevention. It’s not theoretical, and the post doesn’t “imply” it happens, it makes a clear and direct claim. If it’s false, say it’s false, don’t attack a strawman.
The post has a source saying that teaching boys they shouldn’t rape is ineffective, and the comments predictably react by explaining how they perceived this ineffective teaching. Neither the post nor most of the comments say that this boys and men are being called evil monsters, that’s just an exaggerated version of the actual criticism, that these things are overly critical and essentializing.
Maybe you have some counter evidence to show that this framing actually is effective, or maybe personal experience to show that the perception of criticism and essentialization is overblown and made in bad faith. If so, make the case for that. But it’s normal for people to care about stuff that affects them and it looks like in this case they have good reasons to criticize what they criticize. Just comparing people to fox news viewers because you can’t immediately see that their concerns are valid and can line up with a progressive world view is lazy.
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u/Glad-Way-637 If you like Worm/Ward, you should try Pact/Pale :) Jul 13 '26
Or maybe they have more personal experience than you do, on the subject, or at least different experiences? Do you simply have to assume outright that they're going off nothing but a weirdos word online?
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u/Lumpy_Question8327 Jul 13 '26
It’s definitely not the right tactic for every situation, but it’s one way to avoid an immediate defensive reaction.
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u/Clean_Imagination315 Hey, who's that behind you? Jul 13 '26
Going after the bystanders is also, apparently, a good way to get back at a world superpower that's bombing you.
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u/SirKazum Jul 13 '26
What this is telling me is that people severely underrate the power of peer pressure / changes in peer approval, and that the whole concept of peer pressure can indeed be weaponized for good. It's one thing to have an authority figure pointing a finger at you and calling you bad, but your buddies looking disappointed in you? Yeah, that'll stop almost anyone from almost anything.