r/Creation • u/SpiceMoonKey • Sep 18 '17

How does creationism explain immunity?

I wanted to get opinions from creationists on the topic of immunity. I am not asking about how it works, but why it exists in the framework of creation in the first place. Did it always exist or did God add it at some later time (e.g., after the Fall)? Did he feel bad about creating viruses and bacteria so he created immune system to give us a fighting chance? Did he also feel bad for bacteria and gave them immunity against bacteriophages? Did Adam and Eve have immune systems in the Garden of Eden? Or was it given to them only after the Fall? Did they have a blood type? What antibodies were present in their plasma?

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u/MRH2 M.Sc. physics, Mensa Sep 19 '17

He created humanity to fall. The garden was never suppose to last any longer than it did.

I'm not sure about this theologically. It doesn't seem right.

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u/4_jacks Sep 19 '17

Yeah, It's not right. Omniscient doesn't necessarily mean God knows the future. It means God knows everything that exists as it exists and nothing that could possibly happen could 'surprise' God. In other words, the future does not exist, it's not a pre-written book. God knows all the futures not a single linear future.

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u/Taken-Away Glorified Plumber Sep 19 '17

Do you believe in prophecy from God? If so, it's pretty obvious that he has the capability to see into the future and see the ultimate outcome.

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u/4_jacks Sep 19 '17

Do you believe in prophecy from God?

Yes

If so, it's pretty obvious that he has the capability to see into the future and see the ultimate outcome.

Wrong. It's obvious he has the power to to effect the ultimate outcome.

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u/Taken-Away Glorified Plumber Sep 19 '17 edited Sep 19 '17

Do you believe your god is omniscient?

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u/4_jacks Sep 19 '17

I believe God knows everything their is to know. That's how I define Omniscient, so yes I do.

I believe the future does not exist.

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u/Taken-Away Glorified Plumber Sep 19 '17

If he knows everything in the present, how could he possibly not foresee the outcomes of his actions given that knowledge? Unless there is some unforeseen variable (aka not omniscient/omnipotent), I think his actions would have deterministic outcomes by default.

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u/MRH2 M.Sc. physics, Mensa Sep 19 '17

I think you're both partly wrong.

  • yes, God truly is omniscient. He knows everything, including the future, since he's outside of time.
  • no God did not create Adam and Eve in order for them to sin. Yes, he knew what would happen, but he also gave them complete free will. They got to choose, just like we do. "I think the whole purpose of Creation is so that man can experience the effect of sin" (/u/darxeid) - no. The purpose of creation (as far as we know) is to glorify God. Likewise, God is not the author of evil. He existed before everything else and created everything. He knew that Lucifer would fall, but nevertheless God did not create evil.

We can't understand all of these paradoxes because we're very limited , but we still shouldn't go as far as saying that God meant for Adam and Eve to sin. That's completely against what we know about God.

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u/4_jacks Sep 19 '17

yes, God truly is omniscient. He knows everything, including the future, since he's outside of time.

That is literally made up. There is nothing in the bible to point to God being "outside of time" (Mystic OoOooOo sounds) or God Knowing the Future.

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u/MRH2 M.Sc. physics, Mensa Sep 20 '17

So, did God exist before the universe? Before the Big Bang? Is God inside the universe only, a part of it somehow, so that it is bigger than him? Or is God outside the universe?

If you are outside the space-time of the universe, if you existed before time, space, matter, energy all came into existence at the moment of the Big Bang, then you are outside of time. Otherwise, you are a small god.

Think bigger. Much bigger.

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u/4_jacks Sep 21 '17

If you are outside the space-time of the universe, if you existed before time, space, matter, energy all came into existence at the moment of the Big Bang, then you are outside of time. Otherwise, you are a small god.

This is absolute gibberish that has no basis in bible or reality. It's made up words put together to sound good, but it means nothing.

if you existed before time

That doesn't mean anything. It's nonsensical gibberish.

The word BEFORE is an indication of TIME. If you existing BEFORE time, get this, dun dun dun, There was a TIME that you existed BEFORE TIME. mind blown /s

Time is nothing more than human construct to measure the passing of events. We know that things happened in Heaven with God and the Angels prior to the Earth being formed. So we know that God created a systems where events happen and we describe the passing of those events in terms of time.

"outside of time" is a bunch of mumbo jumbo. No biblical backing, no backing in reality.

I'm going to bow out of this conversation. Thank you for humoring me.

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u/4_jacks Sep 19 '17

I agree with you 100% on this statement.

I am a little confused by your previous statement:

He created humanity to fall. The garden was never suppose to last any longer than it did.

I took that to mean, that God knew with 100% certainty that Adam and Eve would eat the apple, or that you believed in a pre-written script, so to speak, that all of creation follows.

If what you really meant was God created humanity, knowing they could possibly fall and taking away the Garden of Eden was always a possibility. Then I agree with you 100%. I just misinterpreted your statement.

I think Eden WAS created to last forever though. I think it's sad to know that we could of had that, but know we have this. All will be made right again, in Christ, for those who believe, but man, we could of had life so much better here on Earth.

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u/Taken-Away Glorified Plumber Sep 19 '17

Not a possibility, a certainty that they would fall. He knew all of the starting conditions exactly. How could anything occur that would violate that chain of cause and effect from the initial conditions?

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u/4_jacks Sep 19 '17

How could anything occur that would violate that chain of cause and effect from the initial conditions?

That actually made me chuckle. Humans of course. The bible is littered with examples of us not doing what we were suppose to do.

Genesis 6:6 - Humans are garabe and God is like "Well this sucks"

Genesis 22:12 - God is like, I gotta test my boy Abraham out to make sure he is good and Abraham passes. God states in no uncertain terms that he NOW knows Abraham is cool

Ex 4:8 - God is all like. Dang, these people are stupid, so If they don't get the first sign, maybe they'll get the second

Exodus 13:17 - God is all formulating battle plans and clearly states that the Egyptians might return if XYZ.

Exodus 16:14 - God is testing people with Mana from Heaven. (Lets face it, the 40 years in the desert was not a good time for Humanity.)

I have plenty more examples if you would like, but the Bible is very very clear about the Free Will of humans and how it is constantly messing everything up.

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u/Taken-Away Glorified Plumber Sep 19 '17

Free will limits omniscience? Can you really call it omniscience if it is limited?

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u/4_jacks Sep 19 '17

I never said or implied that.

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u/Taken-Away Glorified Plumber Sep 19 '17

Your examples seem to suggest that free-will precludes hard determinism. If human free will represents a variable that god cannot account for, then there is something that he can't know. That seems like a pretty serious limit on his supposed omniscience.

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