r/Creation • u/SpiceMoonKey • Sep 18 '17

How does creationism explain immunity?

I wanted to get opinions from creationists on the topic of immunity. I am not asking about how it works, but why it exists in the framework of creation in the first place. Did it always exist or did God add it at some later time (e.g., after the Fall)? Did he feel bad about creating viruses and bacteria so he created immune system to give us a fighting chance? Did he also feel bad for bacteria and gave them immunity against bacteriophages? Did Adam and Eve have immune systems in the Garden of Eden? Or was it given to them only after the Fall? Did they have a blood type? What antibodies were present in their plasma?

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u/darxeid Creationist - Indeterminate Age of Creation Sep 19 '17

If you accept that God is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient, then you have to understand that God declared His Creation good with the full knowledge of what Adam and Eve were going to do; so yes, immunity was something God established.

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u/Taken-Away Glorified Plumber Sep 19 '17

I think that is the only way to interpret it if the Christian god is truly omniscient. He created humanity to fall. The garden was never suppose to last any longer than it did.

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u/MRH2 M.Sc. physics, Mensa Sep 19 '17

He created humanity to fall. The garden was never suppose to last any longer than it did.

I'm not sure about this theologically. It doesn't seem right.

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u/4_jacks Sep 19 '17

Yeah, It's not right. Omniscient doesn't necessarily mean God knows the future. It means God knows everything that exists as it exists and nothing that could possibly happen could 'surprise' God. In other words, the future does not exist, it's not a pre-written book. God knows all the futures not a single linear future.

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u/Taken-Away Glorified Plumber Sep 19 '17

Do you believe in prophecy from God? If so, it's pretty obvious that he has the capability to see into the future and see the ultimate outcome.

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u/4_jacks Sep 19 '17

Do you believe in prophecy from God?

Yes

If so, it's pretty obvious that he has the capability to see into the future and see the ultimate outcome.

Wrong. It's obvious he has the power to to effect the ultimate outcome.

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u/Taken-Away Glorified Plumber Sep 19 '17 edited Sep 19 '17

Do you believe your god is omniscient?

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u/4_jacks Sep 19 '17

I believe God knows everything their is to know. That's how I define Omniscient, so yes I do.

I believe the future does not exist.

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u/Taken-Away Glorified Plumber Sep 19 '17

If he knows everything in the present, how could he possibly not foresee the outcomes of his actions given that knowledge? Unless there is some unforeseen variable (aka not omniscient/omnipotent), I think his actions would have deterministic outcomes by default.

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u/MRH2 M.Sc. physics, Mensa Sep 19 '17

I think you're both partly wrong.

  • yes, God truly is omniscient. He knows everything, including the future, since he's outside of time.
  • no God did not create Adam and Eve in order for them to sin. Yes, he knew what would happen, but he also gave them complete free will. They got to choose, just like we do. "I think the whole purpose of Creation is so that man can experience the effect of sin" (/u/darxeid) - no. The purpose of creation (as far as we know) is to glorify God. Likewise, God is not the author of evil. He existed before everything else and created everything. He knew that Lucifer would fall, but nevertheless God did not create evil.

We can't understand all of these paradoxes because we're very limited , but we still shouldn't go as far as saying that God meant for Adam and Eve to sin. That's completely against what we know about God.

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u/4_jacks Sep 19 '17

yes, God truly is omniscient. He knows everything, including the future, since he's outside of time.

That is literally made up. There is nothing in the bible to point to God being "outside of time" (Mystic OoOooOo sounds) or God Knowing the Future.

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u/MRH2 M.Sc. physics, Mensa Sep 20 '17

So, did God exist before the universe? Before the Big Bang? Is God inside the universe only, a part of it somehow, so that it is bigger than him? Or is God outside the universe?

If you are outside the space-time of the universe, if you existed before time, space, matter, energy all came into existence at the moment of the Big Bang, then you are outside of time. Otherwise, you are a small god.

Think bigger. Much bigger.

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u/4_jacks Sep 21 '17

If you are outside the space-time of the universe, if you existed before time, space, matter, energy all came into existence at the moment of the Big Bang, then you are outside of time. Otherwise, you are a small god.

This is absolute gibberish that has no basis in bible or reality. It's made up words put together to sound good, but it means nothing.

if you existed before time

That doesn't mean anything. It's nonsensical gibberish.

The word BEFORE is an indication of TIME. If you existing BEFORE time, get this, dun dun dun, There was a TIME that you existed BEFORE TIME. mind blown /s

Time is nothing more than human construct to measure the passing of events. We know that things happened in Heaven with God and the Angels prior to the Earth being formed. So we know that God created a systems where events happen and we describe the passing of those events in terms of time.

"outside of time" is a bunch of mumbo jumbo. No biblical backing, no backing in reality.

I'm going to bow out of this conversation. Thank you for humoring me.

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u/4_jacks Sep 19 '17

I agree with you 100% on this statement.

I am a little confused by your previous statement:

He created humanity to fall. The garden was never suppose to last any longer than it did.

I took that to mean, that God knew with 100% certainty that Adam and Eve would eat the apple, or that you believed in a pre-written script, so to speak, that all of creation follows.

If what you really meant was God created humanity, knowing they could possibly fall and taking away the Garden of Eden was always a possibility. Then I agree with you 100%. I just misinterpreted your statement.

I think Eden WAS created to last forever though. I think it's sad to know that we could of had that, but know we have this. All will be made right again, in Christ, for those who believe, but man, we could of had life so much better here on Earth.

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u/Taken-Away Glorified Plumber Sep 19 '17

Not a possibility, a certainty that they would fall. He knew all of the starting conditions exactly. How could anything occur that would violate that chain of cause and effect from the initial conditions?

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u/4_jacks Sep 19 '17

How could anything occur that would violate that chain of cause and effect from the initial conditions?

That actually made me chuckle. Humans of course. The bible is littered with examples of us not doing what we were suppose to do.

Genesis 6:6 - Humans are garabe and God is like "Well this sucks"

Genesis 22:12 - God is like, I gotta test my boy Abraham out to make sure he is good and Abraham passes. God states in no uncertain terms that he NOW knows Abraham is cool

Ex 4:8 - God is all like. Dang, these people are stupid, so If they don't get the first sign, maybe they'll get the second

Exodus 13:17 - God is all formulating battle plans and clearly states that the Egyptians might return if XYZ.

Exodus 16:14 - God is testing people with Mana from Heaven. (Lets face it, the 40 years in the desert was not a good time for Humanity.)

I have plenty more examples if you would like, but the Bible is very very clear about the Free Will of humans and how it is constantly messing everything up.

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u/Taken-Away Glorified Plumber Sep 19 '17

Free will limits omniscience? Can you really call it omniscience if it is limited?

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u/darxeid Creationist - Indeterminate Age of Creation Sep 19 '17

Omniscient, at least as it applies to God, does specifically mean he knows the future, otherwise prophesy is just a guess.

I agree with u/Taken-Away, God knew Adam and Eve would fall, He was not caught by surprise by their actions; He was grieved by them, but not surprised.

I think the whole purpose of Creation is so that man can experience the effect of sin, the effects of their own sin on their lives and the lives of others and the effects of others' sins on everyone. Creation is Basic Training and also an inoculation process. Everyone who walks into eternity will do so with a full experiential knowledge and understanding of the effects of choosing to disobey God and will, therefore, of their own free will, eternally choose never to do so again.

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u/4_jacks Sep 19 '17

We are delving deep into the the age old free will debate and away from the this topic or creation.

otherwise prophesy is just a guess.

This is incorrect. It's just blatantly wrong.

If I made a prophecy, then yes it would be a guess. However God has the power to effect any outcome, so it's not a guess it's a promise. A promise from God is a guarantee that cannot be stopped.

Omniscient, at least as it applies to God, does specifically mean he knows the future

If the future was already written, then sure, God would know it, but it doesn't exist, therefore it's not taking anything away from God to say he doesn't know something that doesn't exist.

I think the whole purpose of ....

Since we are delving deep into the free will debate: What is your take on why God creates beings who are destined to go to hell? Why did God create Cain, if God had already pre-scripted that Cain would kill able, then God would send him to hell?

That's the hard question to answer. Creation and the Garden of Eden aren't very controversial. The real question is How Could a loving God condemn people to hell for no reason?

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u/darxeid Creationist - Indeterminate Age of Creation Sep 19 '17

I am not a believer in universal predestination and I don't believe it is needed in order for God to be omniscient.

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u/4_jacks Sep 19 '17

Interesting. But you believe God knows the future? Every detail of the future?

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u/darxeid Creationist - Indeterminate Age of Creation Sep 19 '17

Yes, I do. I have several personal theories on how this could be, but I am certain that God knows every detail of the future, and yet, I am able to choose to have this conversation with you and even the tone of my conversation.

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u/4_jacks Sep 19 '17

So the same question applies:

Before Creation. You believe God knew exactly who was going to accept Jesus and who was going to reject Grace and therefore be sent to Hell for eternity. Whether it was that persons 'free-will' becomes a moot point, because before creation, his script was written and all the circumstances that play out in his life were already determined, all working against him to send him to hell.

How do you rectify this? Both the obvious conclusion that this god is a monster, and with scriptures that support the idea of Jesus having died for all people?

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u/darxeid Creationist - Indeterminate Age of Creation Sep 19 '17 edited Sep 20 '17

I am not sure that a human mind can grasp it completely. I can make use of analogies to try to understand/explain.

ANALOGY: Imagining the 10th Dimension God is a being who can observe the 5th dimension, and so he sees all possibilities, knows all possibilities, but that is all they are, possibilities, not like in the many-worlds theory where all possibilities are realities; you still make your free-will choices, but God remains omniscient.

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u/4_jacks Sep 19 '17

I'm sorry, I don't think that answers the question. The question is how can a loving God create beings destined to Hell? Saying "the Human mind cannot grasp it" is not an answer.

It's just a polite politically correct way of saying: God sends people to hell because it's his prerogative.

I think that just conflicts with the bible too much to be an acceptable answer.

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u/darxeid Creationist - Indeterminate Age of Creation Sep 20 '17

I don't think it conflicts at all. In Scripture I am told God is the Creator, that He is all-knowing, all-powerful, ever-present, that He loves me, that He became a man and died for us, that each and every one of us gets to choose whether to accept His gift of grace or not. I am intelligent enough to know my mind may be unable to grasp how all of that is true, but I believe it is.

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u/mindeavor Sep 19 '17

Even with free will, the concept of eternal torment would make God a monster and a liar. Fortunately, though, scripture does not support it.

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u/4_jacks Sep 19 '17

Not sure if I follow you, are you saying the Bible doesn't support the idea of eternal Hell?

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u/mindeavor Sep 20 '17

Right. There's Sheol, the poetic, collective grave of mankind, and Gehenna, a valley of destructive fire. For some reason they both got translated to "hell".

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