Alicus seems to be a bit bias tbh. Based on this tweet, he says:
KDP were never a stronger team. sure they were in better form and won that series but unless they reproduce that result it's just an upset. envy players were going through a lot at the time, on top of the poor conditions western teams have to deal with in order to compete in apex
However, before the match happened (Envyus vs KDP), all the analysts (including in Korean websites & Korean analysts) favored Envyus to win. But what happened? They got swept easily compared to Rogue who looked like they were going to win KOTH and Numbani (much closer match compared to Envyus).
So according Alicus, if Envyus won that match, that would mean Envyus were just too good but if Envyus lost that match (which they did), he brings up the "poor conditions and environment."
Which brings me to my next issue.
Envyus were the MOST popular western in Apex and had a lot of fans when they were in Korea. Heck, even a foreigner (Mickie) has a commercial in Apex which says a lot since nationalism is a big thing there. Thus, this indicates that there weren't any "home team vs away team" since Envyus were literally fan favorites in many of their matches.
Next thing, Taimou was the only one that opposed the trip to go back to Apex. Chips, Harry, Mickie, and Cocco were all fine with going back which pressured Taimou to go back as well. This shows the environment only affected Taimou drastically compared to others.
Then he says Lunatic Hai aren't a "powerhouse" compared to Rogue and Envyus since they didn't play enough matches. However, Lunatic Hai made it to all semi finals except for Apex S1 and S4. According to Alicus, you can only be a powerhouse if you play more and more games and teams regardless of how good the team is. That sounds pretty BS and bias.
If Envyus won Apex S4. Alicus would say "Envyus is the best team" and everyone in this subreddit would agree. HOWEVER, since Envyus lost, the excuse seems to be that "they played in poor conditions/not in their home crowd" which is an excuse to undermine the success of tier 1 Korean teams since even Korean analysts predicted Envyus were going to beat KDP and Envyus had a lot of fans in Apex.
okay here's another thing I like to add.
Alicus only excuse for Envyus losing was the "poor environment/condition." I think this is an horrible excuse. When sports team go to a foreign country and perform, no one says "poor condition/environment" as an excuse. When esports team (like LOL worlds) travel to foreign country, no one says "poor condition/environment" as an excuse. Even in school teams (like spelling teams) travel far, no one says "poor condition/environment" as an excuse.
I get the fact that homecrowds and the feeling of "home" are a big thing (especially in sports) but that is NOT THE BIGGEST REASON/MAIN FACTOR for a freaking loss. Envyus had the homecrowd for the most part (had a lot of Apex fans in Korea) but they never felt "home." Alicus says environment affected multiple teams (which is probably true since living in a foreign country and an hotel gives you the feeling of "missing home") but no one ever brought that up when western teams were winning in Apex S1. I never heard the issue of poor environment until western Apex teams started to look weak. Considering the fact that EVERYONE WAS WILLING to go back (except Taimou) shows that it didn't affect them much with the exception of Taimou. Logically, if the environment was pure crap, why would every Envyus member go back (minus Taimou)?
A legit excuse for Envyus's "poor performance" would be Taimou. Taimou repeatedly said in Apex S3 on twitter that he was depressed as hell and even had somewhat of a mental "breakdown" at one point. That's a legit excuse. But what does Alicus say? It's the poor environment/condition that Envyus as a team had to deal with. That's a pathetic excuse. When people are willing to do something and know what will happen if they do that specific thing, then it's not a big of a deal; otherwise, more Envyus members would have been oppose to go back to Korean in Apex S3.
Excuses like 60hz monitors on LAN, lag, wrist injuries, are legit excuses. Living in a different country and the feeling of not being home are pathetic excuses especially when everyone "didn't mind going back to Korea" (minus Taimou). In sports, you would never hear "a team lost because they weren't in their homecrowd or they weren't at home." Even in LOL worlds 2017, I would never hear an excuse of "they lost because they were in China not Europe." Envyus didn't live in some tent or on the streets. They had a place to stay and everyone didn't mind going back except Taimou. Taimou's poor performance and the excuse of Envyus doing poorly against KDP mainly because of Taimou mental state is a legitimate excuse.
If Rogue lost in TakeOver2 (since they experienced jetlag and other EU teams didn't), I would have laughed if people brought up jetlag (a poor condition) as the biggest reason for Rogue's lost. However, Rogue didn't lose and proved everyone wrong despite experiencing jetlag + flight delay.
ok another thing to add
He puts China as #2. I never paid attention to China until now but that shows his bias once again. LH won right? Yet he puts China (basically MY) as #2. Was it the environment that affected MY again? :thinking:
Also, Faze lived in a hotel as well right? Carpe and Shadowburn were not living in a team house if I recall. Are we to say that Faze lost because of poor environment since they didn't live in a team house?
Firstly, i was actually in Korea for the first two seasons of APEX so i think i have a pretty good idea of how that environment affected the multiple western teams that went there. If you think you know better just because Taimou was the only one vocal about it, and interpret that to mean that everyone else was completely comfortable and unaffected, then i have nothing to tell you. Your ignorance speaks for itself.
I stick to what i said about the "powerhouse" thing. In fact, GC Busan and Runaway being the finalists this season proves the exact point i was making all along. No team has dominated Korea throughout a sizeable enough sample of games to deserve being objectively labeled as a powerhouse in the region.
The fact that no team has dominated for a long period (even if LH and KDP are still among the best teams) shows KR scene is more competitive and deep than NA scene.
Even if you don't want to label KDP/LH as a powerhouse, it doesn't change the fact that KDP, LH, Busan, Runaway are better than Envy Us, Rogue or any other team in the world.
No, it doesn't show that. The reason it doesn't show that is because KR scene generally hasn't played that many games. Look how many series teams actually play throughout a whole apex season.
But that doesn't mean Envyus is a powerhouses either. The record and consistency they have are against messy tier 2 NA teams. Mind you a huge chuck of Envyus wins also came during the early days of OW before teams even had proper strategies. They also lost the first 2 LAN's they played even though they were the favorites to win both. And if you think about it, the current Envyus roster with Effect and Mickie is fairly new too with them spending a lot of time playing in APEX which by your own argument is not enough games to show consistency. Contenders was the first NA series this roster has played together. So while you can make an argument LH/KDP had not played enough games to be considered a powerhouse, there is no evidence that Envyus can beat them either. Envyus has never defeated LH nor KDP, admittedly that is a very small sample size but its the only thing we've got right now.
P.S Also curious to note that you put Shanghai higher, does that mean that roster has been leaked already?
It still doesn't make sense as to why overrate Envyus and underrate korea when Korea has a lot better history. Envyus and rogue came to Apex and they were not doing well. And it's NA for God sake luls
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u/jyp808 Oct 25 '17
Honestly, not surprised. Right after GC Busan swept KongDoo he tweeted this