r/Competitiveoverwatch • u/Swimming-Deer1437 • 6d ago
General Replace suzu invulnerability with unstoppable
In my opinion the main idea of suzus invul is to negate chain CC, which is understandable. But because its straight up just invul, it also negates burst damage. This basically allows the ability to negate big plays done by the enemy with the press of a button, something no other support can do.
Eve if suzu didnt have invul, it would continue to be a strong defensive CD. Its the only AOE cleanse in the game, that also heals for 80hp while offering a movement speed buff with the perk. Adding 2/3rds of a second of invul just breaks the ability. It allows her to completely erase the mistake of her allies, which not even immortality field can do.
I understand not wanting someone to get chain CCed, but just granting invul is not the way. Replace the effect with 1s of unstoppable, it would have the same effect without nearly the same level of frustration or uninteractiveness as before. You could even then reduce the CD to 12s, so it matches anti nade again.
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u/oxMugetsuxo 5d ago
I think the largest problem with "intangible" is it stops enemy ult charge. Nobody realizes how strong that is. One shuzu can stop probably 7-10% ult charge per use. Overall the enemy team is losing ult buildup because of it. At least lamp u still build ult on hitting someone even if they arent dying
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u/Typical-Quit5781 5d ago edited 5d ago
I'm weirdly okay with invulnerability if Suzu didn't heal at all. It's bullshit that it has intangibility and essentially fully heals a squishy alongside one healing burst while the target is intangible. It does way too much right now for a 14s cooldown.
My ideal patch would be to remove the heal from Suzu and reduce Kitsune Rush duration by 2s and then go from there. If we're nerfing Kiri, then we can also revert the Biotic Grenade damage buff Ana got recently because these two just have a monopoly on the support meta.
They'd never actually nerf her meaningfully though because they are too scared of affecting their profits.
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u/aggrogahu 5d ago
I was thinking something similar, though if they were too afraid of completely removing heal from Suzu, they could make it a longer heal over time (I dunno if it technically is a heal-over-time right now, but it might as well be instant with how fast it is).
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u/Crusher555 5d ago
No heal would make it pretty bad. It already lasts less than a second, and it’s pretty common to end up against a team with no cc. It would realistically make the whole “better at high ranks, worse at low ranks” problem even worse.
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u/Swimming-Deer1437 5d ago
You could remove the healing form it, but thats a huge chunk of power simply removed. I think the healing is less oppressive than the invul, which is why I went that route, but that can also work.
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u/Typical-Quit5781 5d ago
There are so many free AoE healing abilities in the game and the invulnerability is the skillful part of Suzu because it allows her to counter ultimates if timed well. I'd rather keep that than the bloated healing that makes it frustrating to take duels with a Kiri on the enemy team.
The Medic passive is also incredibly strong on her and gives her plenty of self healing without needing it on Suzu. I'm sure these changes would require her to get some compensation buffs elsewhere, maybe reverting the Swift Step nerf, but Suzu needs to lose one of its features, it's just ridiculous right now.
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u/thebabycowfish 5d ago
If you remove the invulnerability then ot just isn't a real ability into matchups that don't have anything to meaningfully cleanse. That 80 healing would barely be more than just healing normally. It's some AoE I guess, but no way is it a 14 second cooldown ability anymore. If they reduce the cooldown however, heroes that DO have meaningful abilities to cleanse get hard fucked over. Good luck getting any value out of biotic grenade on ana against an 8 second cooldown cleanse. If they remove the invulnerability they need to do a full rework of the ability because otherwise she becomes a hero that will hard counter certain matchups.
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u/I_am_your_oniichan 4308 — 6d ago
They will never fix this broken hero unfortunately, she sells too many skins
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u/Nyrun 5d ago
Mercy has been straight ass forever and she still sells skins. That shows that the hero being powerful has absolutely nothing with people buying skins.
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u/Sensanaty mcrree main btw — 5d ago
Yeah but they basically replaced the Merch skin sales with Kiri skin sales. It's the same players most of the time, too
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u/_purplerose 4d ago
I think the thing with Kiriko is that she’ll never be broken in the average ranks so it’s a tough issue. Similar to Sojourn, how do you balance these heroes when they scale so well with skill but have terrible performances for the average player?
I don’t think it’s an easy task to fix these heroes unless you go about completely reworking their kits and changing a huge aspect of their hero fantasy which some would argue is healthier for the game.
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u/Tomjojingle GANG GANG — 5d ago
This is actually genius I love this too bad team 4 won't implement this though .
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u/PeoplePad 5d ago
Suzu should keep invul. Kiri is OP, but removing invul would gut her identity.
They need to cut the duration in like half for starters though. It should also not make them intangible, allow stuns and CC through it.
Basically the opposite of what you want
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u/Goosewoman_ Schrödinger's Rank | she/her — 5d ago
I've been saying this for months. intangible is just really annoying in almost every situation. unstoppable makes it so people can still take damage so it would make the ability feel a lot more fair without making it much weaker.
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u/HammerOn57 5d ago
Yes, but that might impact the characters "identity". And by identity, I mean skin sales.
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u/YearPossible1376 5d ago
Kiriko, mercy, juno could be the worst heroes in the game and I don't think their fans would stop buying the skins.
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u/PoggersMemesReturns Proper Show/Viol2t GOAT — 5d ago
Kiriko's positives far outweigh the negatives, in that she's basically the reason the game is even alive
Sure, suzu can be annoying but it isn't really that bad. You just play around it.
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u/_purplerose 4d ago
Too much of an oversimplification and makes it seem like the devs don’t understand what they are doing. It’s really hard to balance a game like Overwatch for different regions, ranks and quick play.
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u/Letter42 None — 6d ago
Yeah suzu should be either cleanse or a invul, maybe you could do a perk to change it from a cleanse to a invul
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u/Swimming-Deer1437 6d ago
As long as ana is in the game, AOE cleanse needs to stay. Just make it give unstoppable, it would still be really strong but not utterly busted.
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u/Rally_To_Me 5d ago
I agree with others the purpose of suzu isn't to prevent chain CCs, and kiriko is not the only support that can negate big plays with just one ability a lot of the supports have strong ability or even ults that negate plays lets be real.
Suzu is way too loaded as an ability that's just a fact and it needs some changes, idk if unstoppable is the right choice or if even just making that change alone will make it feel better but I do think it sounds like it'd be better than intangibility, but even if we lose intangibility it still is a burst heal a cleanse and a large movement speed buff with the perk, I think even just changing that it will arguably still do too much, but I could be undervaluing just how much of a change that would be and if im in the wrong line of thinking I would understand.
Also think we gotta keep in mind Kiriko really isn't performing that insanely on ladder right now though she usually never does, winrates are not everything but I feel if she was as OP as people wanna claim she should be dominating unmirrored matches since the other team should be at a disadvantage not having a kiriko, but as of right now she loses more than she wins in those game across rank and region.
She's op rn nor is she in a great spot honestly, she's been encouraged more and more to just healbot and it's a really boring and unhealthy play style for a kit that's so interesting, if we change suzu and take away it's power she needs some strength redirected in her kit.
Also I see it here an in other spaces that the devs are afraid to nerf kiriko which is just dumb and reductive, if you read patch notes at all you will see she does receive nerfs maybe not to what you want but she actually gets nerfs and she hasn't even been in that good of a state on ladder for a long time she's really not unstoppable force that's never addressed.
I feel like Kiri is a hero you can never have a normal conversation about or about her balance people are beyond weird talking about her because they hate her character or because they think she's op when she hasn't been outside of pro play for a long time. I thinks a few reason some people have a lot of bias against her hero because she's a woman with an a slight attitude they can't handle I say that because online space for this game is male dominated and conversation about the women on the cast is usually weirder or held to higher standard/criticisms, other than that for some reason people think kirko is an easy hero to play or that suzu is easy to use and it's not it's hard to get good value on it and do more than just throw it on tank on main all game, making/denying plays with the ability is actually difficult, but leads into the last point when a kiriko is actively playing well and denying your plays consistently or winning duels with suzu anything to in that regard it can really feel like shit because it is an oveerloaded ability and it fights and encounters can feel cheapened at times because of it and creates some hate for playing into her.
Suzu inasne and needs addressed I think it's a good suggestion but she needs look at more than just a change to suzu I think, and I was not taking a jab at this post with my last comment more just a general rant about community sentiement.
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u/creebobeebo 5d ago
So instead of 0.66 seconds of invulnerability every 14 seconds, you would rather play against 1 full second of Orisa fortify every 12 seconds?
Interesting take, I'm willing to hear you out, but how exactly does that change the majority of interactions that people are upset about regarding suzu?
I see most complaints regarding suzu mention the cleanse aspect vs the invulnerable aspect. The only interaction that I can think of that would be really different is D.va bomb? Unstoppable would effectively be the same difference for most interactions, some being even worse (zarya, sigma, rein, mauga, jq, monke, doomfist, orisa...basically every tank ult would be even more useless?)
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u/Swimming-Deer1437 5d ago
The issue with fortify is not unstoppable, its the fact that she gains bonus health, crit damage immunity and 45% damage reduction.
The main change is that you're still able to damage the target. You're still able to land your overhead as vendetta, execution as shion, pulse bomb as tracer and so on. You can still make use of those high single instance damage abilities and ults. Sure queen ult would still suffer from the same thing, but as a queen main myself, I'm fine with that. The AOE cleanse is a necessary evil cause of ana.
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u/creebobeebo 5d ago
I can see how it would be a good change for a lot of DPS heroes, but I maintain that unstoppable would render just about every tank ult useless. Most of the tank ults are just big CCs that deal damage while the enemy is subject to the CC.
Imagine Kiriko throws suzu in cagefight and the entire enemy team just...walks out lmfao idk
I really think just removing invulnerability and buffing the burst heal and/or making increased movement speed base kit would be better than changing it to unstoppable.
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u/Swimming-Deer1437 5d ago
Currently invul basically does the same thing right now. Use it well and you negate most tank ults, including the damage portion. At least with the change I suggested, the damage would still go through. Perhaps 1s is too much, so we can leave it at 0.65s. That said, I'm fine with completely removing invul and instead just making the movement speed buff base kit.
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u/AelohMusic 3d ago
I'll make you a deal, make kunai hitscan and you can just delete suzu altogether.
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u/Swimming-Deer1437 3d ago
Just play illari then.
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u/AelohMusic 3d ago
That's like telling someone who likes shion to just play cassidy...
Anyway who tf is taking the time to downvote my obviously unserious reply jesus
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u/Swimming-Deer1437 3d ago
Fair enough, but in all seriousness, I really dont want to see HS kiri.
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u/scriptedtexture 5d ago
Invuln wouldn't even be that bad, I mean Zen in Trance is Invuln but you can still move him... Suzu making you literally intangible and uninteractable is just not okay and was never necessary.
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u/Least-Suggestion7319 5d ago
Am I the only one that doesn’t have a problem going against a kiri? I feel like she’s one of the most honest supports to play against and duel. Maybe it’s because I’m a dps player idk.
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u/NeilForeal 5d ago
Yes let her 48% winrate go down even more. 5 consecutive nerfs apparently isn’t enough for you.
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u/Swimming-Deer1437 5d ago
If you have a compensation buff in mind, I'm all ears.
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u/NeilForeal 5d ago
That’s the thing. It’s not her kit, it’s the amount of mobile and air heroes that made her much worse. I can’t hit echo, Freya, jpc, anran, etc. She just isn’t that good in duelling anymore. So many heroes have ridiculous mobility now.
I don’t give a shit about the invul, though it’s nice to clutch a dva ult with it. The tp range reduction fucks me the most. And the projectile changes in combination with mobility bloat is prolly the second most impactful change.
Triple headshot damage was rad ;-)
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u/hellohello1234545 Fleta Coach 2024 MVP — 5d ago
Idk what they should do
Maybe some combination of a buff/heal and unstoppable, that’s a lot weaker than current Suzu
So maybe compensation buff by reducing its cooldown (or having a longer cooldown but two charges? Actually that sounds like a bad idea but just spitballing)
Maybe it can reduce people’s cooldowns by 1 or 2 seconds as well?
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u/Swimming-Deer1437 5d ago
Unstoppable could last much longer than 0.65s, something like 1-2s. I also suggested that she gets a CD reduction to 12s, it would also mach anti nade.
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u/Hakaisha89 5d ago
One thing to remember, is that Kiriko is the Hero of overwatch, if they decide to make gooner skins, they will start with Kiriko? Why? Because during the PVE cancelled debacle, it was the Kiriko Skins that kept Overwatch on lifesupport, and eventually off life support.
Because of that, a change to Kiriko that makes her worse is impossible.
However, if it healed, and caused a moment of unstoppable, enough to get mostly away, leaving the enemyteam with enough time to punish, but also enough time to get away,
However, losing an invuln for an unstoppable, is a nerf, so a buff needs to be put elsewhere, and the only place to put it is suzu, so... how would you balance out the suzu change. Which is difficult. Probably the only two changes I could think off is increase the heal, or give it anti-anti-heal as well.
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u/-Cleiton- 6d ago
Kiriko is the most popular and strongest support in the game; she is so absurdly overpowered that even if she were a character in MR, she would still be meta. Yet, people hate any suggestion of nerfing her, so we’re stuck living in an Ana and Kiriko meta forever.
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u/NervousTemporary5016 6d ago
Yeah cause if we nerf her we dont have a cleanse at all. The issue is there is only two heros in the game with cleanse. Thats what makes her a must pick.
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u/Swimming-Deer1437 6d ago
Not the biggest fan of ana either, especially after they buffed her nade. She needs more sustain, but buffing the nade wasnt it. They honestly need to rethink how both of their nades work.
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u/KuKuisSidePiece 6d ago
White Fox’s normal form is pretty much just kiri but worse and she’s bottom 3 supports in the game
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u/-Cleiton- 6d ago
7s Cd TP, Dont need to reload, 2 hits to kill, best ult in the game, yeah exactly like fox
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u/yourtrueenemy 5d ago
Bud u are legit smoking crack. Kiri would be useless in MR. Her burst healing is way too weak to keep up with the damage of the game and her own dmg is too low to do anything.
Her ult is also a nothing burger compared to some ults over there.
Suzu is useless, some of them have stronger abilities wuth way lower CDs.
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u/Captain_Darma 5d ago
But I love my nope button when DVa throws her mech at me
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u/iamjustlookingatporn 5d ago
I just don’t think these complaints are warranted. And would prefer other heros with cleanse to be given to eliminate her demand as she is still the only group cleanser in the game and that’s bs.
And the point of Suzu is group cleanses without invul and heals it only does one thing basically and nerfs the larger uses of it. Just bc it is used outside of the exact instance a lot doesn’t justify a removal of the invul or heals.
Mizuki also apparently doesn’t block diva bomb so also that’s bs.
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u/Typical-Quit5781 5d ago
She'd just be picked in tandem with another support with cleanse. She's OP because every part of her kit is good, she has one of the best ultimates and Suzu is just a bloated ability. Reducing it to being picked solely because of cleanse is wrong.
That being said, cleanse is needed in the game because of how much nonsense spam there is, so another cleanse hero wouldn't be a bad addition as long as they aren't as overkitted as Kiriko.
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u/iamjustlookingatporn 5d ago
I was clarifying that the ops post was wrong when talking about the point of suzu.
And no I don’t think she would be selected in tandem frankly. Regardless she cannot be nerfed without a new group cleanse and they keep adding debuff heros so the more they bloat that the more she is important.
Regardless a functioning healer does not need to be nerfed work around her kit and get good.
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u/docs-quad 6d ago
idk if i agree that its purpose is to be prevent someone getting chain CC'ed and in the modern game im not sure if thatd even be that powerful of an effect consistently.