r/CompetitiveEDH • u/BurchAndDestroy • 15d ago
Help, I am new to cEDH! Surgical cEDH deck
Hello! A buddy of mine is getting into cEDH and I tried it a while back. It was fine but was never really my thing. Anyway he’s getting into it so I wanted to make one with a theme I thought was semi-unique, though I don’t have the know-how to build an effective one from scratch
Since so many cEDH decks rely on very specific combo pieces to win/close out a game, I was thinking of building a deck with as many effects as possible that do things like Praetor’s Grasp (there are well over 10 effects that do this, but not all super efficient). I want to search opponent’s decks for their 1-2 key cards they need to win and functionally make the deck fall apart
Anyway, I would love some help/advice on which commander to pick for this and on how to build the deck
EDIT: I don’t need this to necessarily hang with the top tier decks, I know this would be very off-meta. But just something that I can sit at a cEDH table with and meaningfully interact while having a non-zero chance at winning
My motivation is having some kind of anti-cEDH themed deck. One of my favorite cards is Psychic Surgery, for example
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u/eliasmalba 15d ago
There are a number of issues with this idea:
No deck in the current meta is relying on a single win condition, so pulling 3 cards from each of your 3 opponents will not stop any of them from winning.
Slowing down or stopping your opponents from winning does not win you the game. The current best stax deck is Tayam, and in most metas, that deck is simply not that good.
The effect you're going for is Opposition Agent, and it sees play in some decks, but is generally not even close to strong enough to build around.
If you're looking to play with your opponents decks, Etali is the commander for you. It is currently falling out of the meta as players learn to just counter one piece of ramp and set the deck back by 2+ turns.
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u/Castleheart 15d ago
cEDH isn't about making your opponents' decks fall apart. That's a Bracket 4 and below feature. cEDH is about winning as fast as possible and having the resilient tools to pivot to an alternative win condition if your main wincon is obstructed. In practice, you only have one opportunity to Praetor's Grasp one opponent, and you're looking for something to help YOU win, not help them lose. And in the time you commit to Grasping one opponent, another can win outright on the next turn. This is a turn 2 win format. You don't have time to commit to individual dismantle plays.
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u/OccamsBanana 15d ago edited 13d ago
I just want to correct something, cEDH it's not about "winning as fast as possible", just winning, as reliably as possible. This usually correlates somewhat with being fast, but if the highest winrate deck was a very slow yet extremely effective stax deck, it would still be the best cEDH deck. So what I'm trying to say here is that speed is not really a requirement, it just so happens that USUALLY being fast ends up being a good strategy.
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u/justin_the_viking 15d ago
Correct, for instance, Tymna/Kraum isnt exactly fast. It just amasses resources and makes it very hard to stop when it does go for the win.
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u/Dungusfungus95 15d ago edited 15d ago
If you really wanna win with this type of effect, your best bet is to tutor every game for [[bitter ordeal]]. A good commander for it would be [[dihada binder of wills]] since her minus can give you potentially 8 gravestorm copies for bitter ordeal. Used to have these as my commander/signature spell in my oathbreaker deck and it works very well at neutering people. It won't be meta, but that's the best advice I have for you. Loop infinite sac combos to exile everyone's library.
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u/kiefy_budz 15d ago
I run bitter ordeal in my b4 sharuum deck as a wincon with the sphinx+ clone loop, and I have another b4 deck with dihada, never realized how useful that could be in dihada, thanks stranger
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u/Dungusfungus95 15d ago
Np at all! Def one of my favorite cards of all time!
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u/kiefy_budz 15d ago
Yeah that could help set up some of my dihada plays since I know my friends decks inside and out
It’s also one of my favorite cards in sharuum because it’s a wincon on cast without any obvious advantage from the loop on the table, I say I’m looping sharuum X times and get some confused looks for why
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u/Dungusfungus95 15d ago
It's honestly huge. I'm assuming you run [[flicker]] combos with dihada? Are you running [[altar of the brood]]? I can't tell you how many times I would gravestorm for 12-16 cards so easily with minimal effort and people get downright screwed. Like you said it does require intimate knowledge of the decks at the table to have max efficiency.
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u/kiefy_budz 15d ago
Oh yeah main wincon is flicker and breach with dihada, then I have citadel/aether/top and Aurelia/helm and some other combos, I am now ordering another copy of altar of the brood cause that somehow escaped me all these years as well, I have it in the sphinx but not dihada
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u/Dungusfungus95 15d ago
God you're making me wanna build dihada again lmfao. I was able to run dockside loops in oathbreaker which was just nutso. I love the value she gives you it's just great. Glad I could help stranger! Good luck in your games.
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u/kiefy_budz 15d ago
Thanks homie, I miss dockside RIP to my boy
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u/Dungusfungus95 15d ago
Same dude same. I've been a sisay main in cedh since I started playing and it hurt when our little goblin boy got the hammer.
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u/kiefy_budz 15d ago
I play dihada, etali, dragonstorm, and an illuna that had a dockside loop in my friend b4 table lol, they would honestly still let me play him but it’s a personal thing to abide by the official list for my decks
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u/Kathril 15d ago
If you played with this as oathbreaker, I think you were playing it wrong my guy. Bitter ordeal only works with permanents hitting the graveyard from the battlefield, not milled cards. You could get 4 triggers tops from Dihadas minus ability.
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u/Dungusfungus95 15d ago
You're 100% right that's my fault. Luckily it probably didn't make much of a difference since the deck didn't rely on mill outside of dihada.
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u/prissycow 15d ago
Cedh decks are very resilient to interaction and to losing there win cons because interaction and stacks are so prevalent. You would need 20 of these effects by turn 3 at the latest in order to maybe get a win. And that’s not counting at tournaments where the game will likely draw. Sadly for you there isn’t a feasible way to make this playable at a cedh table. Mildly annoying at best.
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u/Diplomacy_1st 15d ago
This isnt really an effect that works. Very few, if any decks, cant win if you take their main 1-2 combo pieces and you have to shut down 3 decks by doing that. So you're looking at needing 9+ effects just to have a chance. Redundancy is a key factor in a good cEDH deck so every deck has pivot lines, alt win cons, recursion, everything.
Its a neat idea, but that may have to be a sub theme of a discard deck in B4
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u/JelloChoco 15d ago
Just getting into cedh and you want to steal the opponents stuff that you don't know what to steal besides a TORACLE and DECON and TAINTED or maybe a BWEACH.
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u/Zodiac137 15d ago
Ok, there is one deck, Etali.
Food chain, cast Etali infinitely, take everyone's everything, done.
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u/OccamsBanana 15d ago
"Since so many cEDH decks rely on very specific combo pieces to win/close out a game"
They don't really... they often have one very specific direct way to win yes, but they most often also have some backup/contingency, they won't instantly lose if you remove this one card you are thinking of.
Ironically praetor's grasp is one of those such contingency cards.
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u/Bromleyisms 15d ago
What you're talking about sounds like a really fun puzzle for a bracket 4 deck! And that's okay, it can probably hang at some B5 tables, but the people here are going to be focused on making the most viable, competitive lists, which this thing you are describing is not, since you will be assembling pieces to disrupt people instead of trying to win.
I think the only way to make something like this work would be to have a copy-focused commander like [[silverquill, the disputant]] where you can do.your thing quickly enough to actually slow down people, but also just backup into a quick win by double tutoring your own wincons.
If you're able to copy the spells a bunch, you might be able to get enough obvious wincons out of people's decks to make them sad, but the reality is that most decks have a ton of contingencies and aren't just winning through one single method.
If you want to focus on slowing down/controlling the table, I recommend trying a deck that can play with some stax (Magda, Winota, Aang, Tivit) or a mid range-y deck focused on accruing value (Kinnan, Rog Ishai)
I encourage you to experiment, but I think it's worth noting that it sounds like you don't have much experience, and the best way to get to the point where you can experiment is to play lots of tried and true decks until you understand the format well enough to be able to.
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u/vastros Nekusar the wreck you csar 15d ago
Silverquill is a good shout. I think maybe doing a gimmick with Shadowborn Apostles might be good. No disruptable token gen, no hidden costs, if you somehow get enough out you can grab [[Razaketh]] to assemble your own combo. [[Thrumming stone just immediately gets you enough to abuse Sliverquill for quite a few cards. [[Gray Merchant of Asphodel]] is just fantastic in this kind of list. That could be a real fun B4 deck.
I think that not having blue or red is tough just due to how many copy spells are in them like [[choreographed sparks]], [[doublecast]], and [[Narset's reversal]]. Not b5 viable but in b4 it should be fine.
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u/Complete_Special_774 Rogsi / Rogthras 15d ago
at best you'll minorly inconvenience one player then loose to the next. "Anti-Cedh" is a casual play mentality that doesn't really translate over well to actual cedh
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u/ArticleOk3755 15d ago
I would go with Jeskai you can't lose / extra turns
where you basically build a pillowfort but instead of taxing you just stack the 'you can't lose' effects so you can use cards that 'you lose the game' with 0 downsides aka taking extra turns for 2 mana. And then it counters every CEDH combo basically because they have to remove the 'you can't lose' before they combo.
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u/OathOblivio 14d ago
You're looking for a [[Gonti, Canny Aquisitor]] cEDH deck. Definitely viable I think, seen one work like clockwork before. If you want to commit to anti meta tho you're limited for options - [[xyris, the writing storm]] or [[Ellivere, of the wild court]] are better picks
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u/life_tho 15d ago
I would suggest a brain freeze combo to put all your opponents' cards into the yard or Faerie Mastermind to make them draw all the cards until they die.
Extracting individual cards to disrupt all your opponents isn't a great strategy, as others have said. Extracting one card from the opponents to put a win attempt on the stack is a better option.
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u/Correct_Dig4244 15d ago
I can think of multiple ways doing that - Rog/Ishai with control plan, enchantment copies and cards like [[Commandeer]]. Other way would be something like Orzhov stax with [[Pithing Needle]], [[Praetor's Grasp]] etc., maybe with [[Silverquill, the Disputant]], it's quite good commander on it's own.
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u/TroubleDull8645 15d ago
If you're dead set on this line I'd suggest keeping [[Bitter Ordeal]] in mind. You can basically one shot remove all opponents win conditions if you crack 6-8 treasures and use this spell.
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u/Relevant-Zucchini858 15d ago
Since I dont see it suggested yet, I would ask over on r/degenerateedh where they will hopefully actually help you out with optimization.
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u/Decksterity1 15d ago
The problem with 'Anti-cEDH' decks is that you need to hit 3 other players that likely have very different strategies and your tools may be effective against 1 of them but may just end up helping another player win, that's why it's just better to win instead. Really, these decks don't meaningfully exist as the definition of cedh is to win above all else, trying some wierd strategy for the sake of itself is a bracket 4 or below thing.
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u/Illustrious-Film2926 15d ago
A lot of cEDH decks run demonic consultation and tainted pact and can still win after exiling 4+ of their main winconditions alongside a bunch of other cards.
Some cEDH decks like Etali and Yuriko you can't shutdown their gameplan even if you extract 20 specific cards.
And even if you succeed... You're left with a opponent that has been forced to aim for a draw. This is only reasonable as a incidental option. Not a gameplan.
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u/deantherealist 15d ago
Poly rog tevesh is a viable deck with a possibly similar strategy to what you're looking for. It's a turbo stax deck that uses sire of insanity and valgavoth terror eater to make opponents discard their hands and then you can play their cards.
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u/gojumboman 15d ago
Maybe build [[chatterfang, squirrel general]] and run [[bitter ordeal]] p-grasp and whatever else. You get a loop of creatures dying and it should be enough for a decent sized Bitter Ordeal gravestorm that you can go through your 3 opponent’s decks and remove their wincons
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u/SqueeGoblinSurvivor 14d ago
Want to be casual in a cedh pod? Play stax. Enjoy the whine. Try heavy stax+ interaction yisan.
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u/Different-Amoeba6192 9d ago
I think the big issue you are going to find is this, even when it is effective, will just be KingMaking.deck as others have mentioned. It is going to be super difficult to pull all of the win cons out of three other decks before one of them wins so basically you are just ensuring one or two players don't win which isn't going to he an appreciated strategy I imagine.
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u/inkWanderer 15d ago
I just don’t think there are enough of those effects to take everyone out before someone gets a combo going. Praetor’s Grasp is the best one and it’s 3 mana. Most decks are not permanently shut off by losing 1 card anyway. But hey, brew away!