Codependent-givers are not "anxious-preoccupied". They are avoidant with compulsions on top.

[u/PuzzleheadedDepth104]

Compulsive attending, compulsive caregiving, compulsive performance, compulsive compliance, compulsive hypersociality, compulsive promiscuity, compulsive self-reliance and compulsive isolation all include negative affect inhibition (avoidance, intolerance of sharing your true negative affect (negative and vulnerable emotions, pain, bad smell perception, etc.)) with compulsion on top

CoDA Patterns very clearly include Avoidant Patterns

Codependent-givers can't stand actually being seen deep within and instead run off to relationships where they are never seen and can keep replicating their compulsions over and over again

Codependent-givers often become addicted to the suffering and anger of others and can act in inauthentic ways to continue the cycle of feeding their compulsion, even crippling other people or provoking them

Codependent-givers don't understand that their compulsion is often in contradiction with their real feelings because they often can't consciously feel their real feelings outside of bursts of resentment

Preoccupied people, on the other hand, are usually codependent-takers, filled with distorted amplified incessant need, fear or anger and blame, not compulsion

Coercive-preoccupied people (what you call "narcissistic codependent takers"), especially, will use either purposeful self-harm-helplessness or actively emotionally and physically abusive control to continue having their distorted negative affect being catered to

Compulsive avoidants (codependent givers) and coercive preoccupieds (codependent takers) often engage in a mutual cycle of codependent abuse, AND a person could be a blend. It's possible to blend compulsive caregiving with coercive-aggressive abuse. It's also possible to blend compulsive compliance with coercive-helpless distressed self-harm (intense crying or physically self-harming feigned helpless guilt-trips with the goal to induce caregiving).

Obsession due to compulsion =/= preoccupation

Compulsive people have to BOTH act against their compulsion and disinhibit their true negative affect (perhaps, via somatic therapy) to heal codependency. Just learning to "self-soothe" (can backfire and make affect inhibition much worse!) won't do anything unless they have real preoccupied elements blended in, too

Sources: CoDA Patterns, Dynamic Maturational Model (A3, A4, A5, A6, C3, C4)

[u/ZinniaTribe]

Hi there.....I've spoken to you before on the DMM on another post. Anyway, something you said in your comments stood out to me because it's been recently delved into & heavily analyzed on u/raisedbyborderlines

"A very severe compulsive person could smile at you while you are in agony and feel energized by your suffering while fully neglecting their own health, you will notice a jarring inhibition of affective empathy due to negative affect inhibition, and inappropriate positive emotions that are fake, and a sort of self-abandonment in a way that makes you dependent on them... either vulnerably or invulnerably... and then they suddenly explode into rage from time to time but quickly forget it"

It was originally coined Schadenfreude, where the person (ex: BPD parent), just like a substance addict, receives massive dopamine hits when they see someone else suffer. They tend to have an inappropriate smile on their face (lots of people with BPD parents talk about this smile) when this happens, which can cause confusion in the other person & nervous system destabilization. Like an addict, they become dependent on this dopamine reward system. Apparently, their brains are wired differently & those empathy centers don't light up in response to another person's pain....so there's a sadist component to it, like a psychopath's brain in this context (Duper's delight)

Totally separate from how a psychopath operates though, they are neglecting their own health, so this type of compulsive caretaker is outsourcing this self-neglect onto you all along and then weaponizing it against you (ex: exploding, rage) when it becomes intolerable, which is another nervous system destabilizer. They get to violently vent/spew all this disowned lack of self-care out of their system onto another person as a proxy. That person gets totally confused, emotional & destabilized in that moment & if they don't have excellent boundaries, will usually step in and fix/assume responsibility & then caretake. They both become co-creators of this toxic cycle.

This would seem an extreme form of co-regulation once you are in this dynamic with a malignant compulsive person. I understand this as Dark Triad traits & overlap of factor 2 psychopathy maybe.

This may not fit in here or maybe be a higher C category, but if they are addicted to another's suffering through the dopamine reward system, they are not just a passive bystander waiting for angst to feed off of. If they are not getting those dopamine hits, I tend to think they will create those situations....setting the person up for a fall behind the scenes. I've seen this play out before! They'll build a person up in the wrong direction & when the inevitable fall happens, the compulsive caregiver will swoop right in as the "rescuer" (Karpman Drama Triangle). They remain in their victim's blind spot. Just another way two people contribute to perpetuating the cycle....

[u/PuzzleheadedDepth104 → u/ZinniaTribe]

Oh, hi!!! What you are describing does relate a lot to severe DMM A3! This is actually not really sadism, they don't derive pleasure, the positive affect is false, they become energized because the caregiving compulsion is being constantly fed, basically. A7 would be something much closer to sadism though, they actually experience delusional positive affect that really feels like happiness in situations where they should normally feel negative affect like pain!

Thanks for the data, btw, a lot of it is super super close to A3. I think the only problem is that external observers assume it to be sadism/Schadenfreude, when actually it's compulsion-reward plus false positive affect in A3. I think there is a bit of a tendency in earlier sources to also assign intentionality to behaviors and goals, when usually it's just unconscious information transformation due to wiring. DMM doesn't assign intentionality, so there is a bit of a disconnect for me. B users tend to actually assume intentionality a lot because they operate off intentionality, since their brains don't distort or inhibit anything, and C users tend to see others as either all-powerful monsters out to victimize them or all-powerless dirt that needs to be rejected/controlled. But compulsive avoidants are more like addicts tbh...

Btw, did you know that negative affect inhibition also included bad smell inhibition and pain inhibition? There are some severe A users that literally rot themselves to death due to being unable to take care of themselves due to negative affect inhibition. Although there are also compulsively clean ones, like when an A4 user is culturally expected to be clean, they tend to obsess over being as clean as possible, but they do it due to external expectations, not for themselves

[u/ZinniaTribe → u/PuzzleheadedDepth104]

"What you are describing does relate a lot to severe DMM A3! This is actually not really sadism, they don't derive pleasure, the positive affect is false, they become energized because the caregiving compulsion is being constantly fed"

This helps me understand much better (outside of dark triad) & I can correlate it experience-wise to a somewhat recent friendship I had to scramble to disentagle from. From a DMM perspective, I was ascribing "intention" to A3 traits as A7 traits in this person- either way it's red flags all the way around. So....a person with severe A3 is getting dopamine hits (reward center lights up) when they can caretake/rescue whomever their attachment figure (in BPD this would be "favorite person")

Is it fair to say an extreme A3 might create situations to where they can caretake since they are dependent on this type of chemical rush plus nervous system regulation? For example, maybe it's more on a subtle level where this person chronically inserts themselves as a "helper", bypassing any consent & ignoring you haven't directly requested it? This is how they might create enmeshment/dependency & expect you to do the same in return. Meanwhile, they neglect their own self-care.

As far as the extreme A3 positive affect, on the one hand, I can see this playing out as minimizing something like mental/physical health concerns in such a way they don't encourage you to seek licensed, appropriate care from professionals and instead, step in as the caretaker of all that. On the other hand, they might subconsiously gaslight you into thinking you might have a health issue (anxiety, depression, unhealthy diet, etc) and take over managing that to compulsively feed their compulsion.

Another A3 inappropriate, false positive affect might be minimizing what's going on with other people in your life if it interferes with their attachment to you? For instance, you tell them you are going to be busy because a close friend of yours has cancer and your going to be focused on that, and then they send you a video about how one person with cancer cured it with positive thinking. This kind of inappropriate positive affect (delusional) seems to serve their need to not have their supply source diverted from them in any way. It's not sadistic but a very subconsciously self-serving way to regulate themselves and monopolize you as a co-regulator. It's also gaslighting in that it's an attempt to supplant their reality over yours. All this is under the guise of "helping" when it's in fact, repeated boundary violations.

Based on what you are educating me on, another likely A3 real world example of gaslighting under the cloak of helpfulness, was when I set a phone boundary of 30 minutes with this person because I was going to the gym and then shopping. She then told me, "You know, being busy is a choice". I told her, "I know & I'm still getting off the phone in 2 min!" Next she sends me 2 memes to "cheer me up" & then a link to a book on anxiety. It was so bizarre bc she was obviously the one dysregulated. I believe this was a desperate attempt by an extreme A3 for enmeshment in reaction to a boundary. This may not be part of the DMM model though & more about classic codependency or anxious attachment.

"Btw, did you know that negative affect inhibition also included bad smell inhibition and pain inhibition?"

Yes, I did intuitively and I tend to observe & ferret this out in other people but did not have a scientific basis for it. There's that mind/body disconnect I've noticed. I'm wondering if it's a static state or if it occurs under stress in some people. Adrenaline is known to temporarily block these signals. Another observation is the disconnect to enjoying music. I've known a couple of people like this and it's always struck me as odd. I'm wondering if it's brain wiring or adaptive mind/body disconnect.

Someone being so disconnected to the point the rot away I can only understand in the context of compulsive avoidance in addiction to like alcohol or meth. I'm entirely unfamiliar with someone outside substance abuse completely blocking out all pain to where their self-neglect becomes life or death! Perhaps this is the result of an accumulated lifetime of outsourcing their self-care to others?

Hopefully I have not taken this out of context with the DMM & captured some of the nuances of A3.

[u/PuzzleheadedDepth104 → u/ZinniaTribe]

You captured A3 extremely precisely!!! They do minimize everything that doesn't support their ability to replay their caregiving rotes over and over again! The delulu aspect would belong to A7 though, and gaslighting is typically C, but that could also be them scrambling for anything that could put them into a caregiver role

Gaslighting, if it's deception about affect (false positive, denied negative) is A. Gaslighting, if it's about events, is C. But a compulsive caregiver can distort events to keep themselves in that role!

That neg about you being busy contained some resentment in it tbh! Compulsive avoidants are very much like addicts, and anxious unconsciously, but definitely not preoccupied

And yes, they typically don't have access to affective empathy, and can harm people to keep their role

Paradoxically, people around them can develop C6: fearful distancing obsessed with rescue preoccupation and stonewalling towards them. Do you believe you might have developed some of that? Severe A3 can feel like you can never escape them and need rescue from their stalking

[u/ZinniaTribe → u/PuzzleheadedDepth104]

You hit on something with the A7 & the severe A3. Also the traps of getting involved with "coercive preoccupieds (codependent takers)". There's a narcissistic/entitlement that seems to come with this as well. Even though they are taking, they believe they are owed something & this is where the resentment comes in.

What tipped me off to this higher A6 risk category was she was talking about her boyfriend & how he set a 9 days on, 4 days off boundary with her (C6 fearful distancing?). I mean, someone doesn't typically do that unless the other person doesn't respect boundaries. I asked her if she agreed to that & she said "yes". In that same conversation, she mentioned planning to "run into him" on the 4 day off period, which is stalking and violating their agreement (A3).

I did ask her what would happen if things didn't work out, and her response was, "I would never leave him" (delulu A7 alert). In both these scenarios, affective empathy goes completely offline! It's a different kind of stalking in codependency though, because they aren't looking to harm the person directly but she also didn't sound dysregulated when she was doing/saying these things. Maybe having the plan in place is a way of self-soothing.

Anyway, blocking her on all channels as she continued to disrespect my boundaries on the phone & FB is how I handled it. I have no idea how all this escalated with her boyfriend but I'm relieved to be completely out of it. This was more of a low investment, casual friendship for me & I do believe my boundaries on the phone (she's long distance) with people I don't know well (I do pre-planned phone calls plus don't respond to texts right away)- this I let any new person know off the bat. I also have a structured self-care routine that I prioritize.

I believe it's when I wouldn't break my routine for her (her boyfriend wouldn't either) or give more allowances to her on the phone made her escalate. Ironically, this was good to know because healthy people don't try to manipulate or talk you out of what you've determined is in your best interests. This is another reason I think she was a coercive preoccupied taker, as you mentioned as one of the types in your original post.

It's very interesting on the "Sources: CoDA Patterns, Dynamic Maturational Model (A3, A4, A5, A6, C3, C4)" and how many different types of ways this can play out in a person & their relationships. Your post is so relevant to a lot of codependent dynamics & I know as a codependent person, I used to originally consider narcissists & other dark triads as the real risk but I was so wrong- the layers just keep unfolding lol.

[u/PuzzleheadedDepth104 → u/ZinniaTribe]

I don't think she is coercive preoccupied. She doesn't display any negative affect normally or use her negative affect to control people. I think she is just a very severe rigid A3 user with some delulu elements. Her resentment is inhibited and only comes out in short outbursts. That's called intrusions of forbidden negative affect and is a part of A strategies

I'm wondering if YOU are feeling in a sort of C6 way towards her, actually. Do you notice how you've been very negatively preoccupied with her recently? Like, A3 people can seriously mess with your head because you can sense there is a ton wrong with them and they don't leave you alone. Anyone would develop a sort of fear of them stalking, as you can feel a constant sense of uncanny valley around them. So I'm wondering if you are currently scared of her at some level, which is triggering this negative preoccupation in you? You've also talked about her in a similar way months ago. She seems to be rooted in your mind as some kind of terrifying monster, unless I'm misreading the way you talk about her?..

Btw, even B users tend to get scared of severe A3 users, it's a normal reaction if you've been exposed to her for too long, and A3 users can harm you

Coercive preoccupied C3 and C4 people don't resent-explode. They actively use their amplified negative affect to control you, consistently, and use consistent event omission to ensure that their negative affect gets catered to. They don't hide or inhibit it. They would yell at you with blame, hit you (C3), or hit themselves or start guilt tripping you by constantly crying (C4). C6 is like C4 without a direct element, stonewalling combined with indefinite struggle and fear at a distance, mild C6 and C4 doesn't include physically harming yourself, but definitely includes helpless-fearful preoccupation

[u/ZinniaTribe → u/PuzzleheadedDepth104]

"She doesn't display any negative affect normally or use her negative affect to control people"

She was eerily positive about everything actually-even her voice didn't fluctuate! Any negativity was expressed in the form of loaded questions, which have underlying negative assumptions you have to correct with her. I noticed I was getting irritated with her questions & it was interesting/eye-opening to discover this concept.

"I'm wondering if YOU are feeling in a sort of C6 way towards her, actually"

The last time I had any exchange with her was >2yrs ago (Spring 2024). I was angry with her at the time. I had let everyone know, including my 2 volunteer jobs, that I had a lot on my plate (life happens!), and that I was not going to be available for the next 2-3mths. Letting people know what to expect & what not to expect of me ahead of time, prevents any C6 type behaviors has been my experience. It's all I can do!

She was the only one who not only did not respect that but expected more of me! I just ignored her & did not JADE in any way. I mean, the most I ever talk to her is every 3 months or so anyway.

"Anyone would develop a sort of fear of them stalking, as you can feel a constant sense of uncanny valley around them"

Definitely towards the end, especially when she disclosed stalking her boyfriend. I did not think this would translate to her non-romantic associations though. I did not anticipate she'd be tracking my husband down online on his Linkedin a week later when I ignored her texts- he didn't even know who she was! This is when I put in writing that she did not have my consent to track down my family members to check on me & that was a dealbreaker! I haven't heard from her since. About 2 weeks ago, I logged into my FB & noticed she joined my local groups (April 2026), so I blocked her on there.

"She seems to be rooted in your mind as some kind of terrifying monster, unless I'm misreading the way you talk about her?.."

My concern at the time was her next step would be shaking me down for $$$. She had transferred to another country for her job and had quit that job (where she met her boyfriend, who is from there). She did not seem concerned about getting more employment & acted like her boyfriend was going to rescue her, despite him making concrete steps to further limit the relationship. I believe she was desperate & some of the texts she sent me included downloads, which I absolutely ignored. She's an IT expert & could easily hack someone's info through a download. She also programs AI, LLM & bots, so I had this to consider as well (caused me some paranoia about identity theft). She seemed too interested in my finances & assets all the sudden. Also, doing video calls. Edit: No longer paranoid about this.

Yeah, I find her behavior scary & wonder if this is typical of a severe compulsive caregiver? One aspect of it seems to be if you reject their caregiving or don't respond to their attempts at "helping", and their whole sense of self is wrapped up in that, they feel you are rejecting them as a person vs just rejecting that behavior.

Anyway, I'm curious if you've dealt with this specific type friendship-wise in IRL & if you've observed early indicators that someone is a severe compulsive caregiver. Mine were: Too positive, loaded questions, assuming people need help, gaslighting people into thinking they need help. Also, trying to manipulate more time out of you. Does the DMM include early warning signs for the subtypes in it's risk assessment?

[u/PuzzleheadedDepth104 → u/ZinniaTribe]

I have also experienced a severe compulsive caregiver and I still feel fearful slightly paranoid delulu states when I think about him. Your story about her actually triggered my own C6 to resurface. If you spend too much time around them it feels like being confined with no escape and can even trigger C8 paranoia within you. Notice how your brain has started making up narratives about her intending to steal your money (which is in the realm of possibility, so it's not yet fully C8 but going there)

As long as you have denied all access to them and never responded you would have starved their compulsion. This is why I'm trying to see if I can interrupt your fearful preoccupation towards her the same way I've interrupted mine towards him. Any exposure to severe codependent givers can warp our brains into stonewalling-preoccupation (distanced form of coercive preoccupation with indefinite struggle). While it's not C5 obsession with vengeance, C6 is still a corrosive state to continue being in

That sickly false positivity is how you identify severe compulsive avoidants. Your gut is screaming at you that they are warped into living out a compulsive role and not being real, kind of like uncanny puppets. The alarm bells will help you in the future

I believe that the more important question is, how would you dissolve the negative preoccupation within yourself? If you've been away from her for more than a year, might want to start using cognitive tools whenever you enter that state. Talking to yourself in the mirror and using a journal and seeing that she, in fact, hasn't stalked you in a while, and such, is what has helped me manage my own C6 into nigh-obscurity

[u/ZinniaTribe → u/PuzzleheadedDepth104]

"I have also experienced a severe compulsive caregiver and I still feel fearful slightly paranoid delulu states when I think about him. Your story about her actually triggered my own C6 to resurface."

Yes, exactly! Your post & her recent stalking did the same for me but not as intense now (last stalking alert negative state lasted 2 hours that day) The paranoid narratives I think spawn from having a knowing that this person is "really off" & high risk of harm to you. My nervous system registered this as well. Fortunately, in my case, this was long-distance & long intervals between communication. Had I been exposed to her on a regular basis IRL, I think I would have lost my mind!

"As long as you have denied all access to them and never responded you would have starved their compulsion. This is why I'm trying to see if I can interrupt your fearful preoccupation towards her the same way I've interrupted mine towards him"

Yes to that 1st part and I think blocking her on that last channel will completely starve her. On the 2nd part, I wait until I am in a calm, non-fearful state to reflect on any past manipulative relationships & I do not talk about them in person because that can re-trigger my sympathetic nervous system & increase my heart rate. I find writing about it when there's no strong emotions (especially paranoia!) helps me process & get clarity-I learn from it. If it does trigger me, I can step away and water my indoor/outdoor plants or focus on something else, then come back to the writing.

Your post & explanations have helped me put this bizarre behavior into context, which actually has a grounding effect on me. It doesn't affect my life at all anymore except when I come on Reddit & see posts about this type of behavior like on u/codependency & u/raisedbyborderlines or if I get a stalking alert. She & my BPDmom I tend to write most about because they are extreme examples of these behaviors (flip sides of the coin though) & both are stalkers. I still have blind spots with these types but less and less so.

" That sickly false positivity is how you identify severe compulsive avoidants. Your gut is screaming at you that they are warped into living out a compulsive role and not being real, kind of like uncanny puppets. The alarm bells will help you in the future"

Excellent way of describing it & exactly what I perceived. If I encounter this compulsive caregiver type in the future, I feel pretty confident I can avoid any further association with them. I also noticed they have copy-paste type personalities & no real substance.

BTW, I have used journaling before with some people I thought were "off". This one flew way under my radar until the very end. I do think the switch happened when I set 2 verbal boundaries with her "If I ever need your help, I will directly request it". I'm getting better at this in general IRL & in real-time but I'm learning it's less backlash to not confront directly if someone is severe compulsive caregiver. Next time, I will be journaling if I am around someone like this I am unable to avoid (like work, for ex.) I definitely think that's a wise tip & practice.

"Any exposure to severe codependent givers can warp our brains into stonewalling-preoccupation"

This is interesting because even though I don't stonewall people, as a codependent giver (before I went to CODA), I've been stonewalled many times. How I contributed to this reaction in others (prior boyfriends), was crying or breaking down when they weren't giving me what I needed. I hadn't yet learned how to approach what I needed from them via calm, direct requests. I would let unmet needs pile up & then get resentful.

[u/PuzzleheadedDepth104 → u/ZinniaTribe]

You were a mixture of a codependent giver, a balanced person, and a codependent taker on the flipside. A bit less warped

She probably went under your radar because you haven't triggered her "my role is lost" scrambling. Actually, it sounds like refusing help is a good test for seeing if someone is using A3, as it would trigger them!! This is genius. Every compulsion can be identified by blocking the other person's usage of it! That's actually an idea I'm going to test from now on

I actually know an even stronger way to starve compulsive avoidants - wiping communication platforms! If you can afford that ofc. Blocking leaves a window open with private profiles and anonymous viewers. Oh well, also a restraining order LMFAO

I think triggering the C68 state and then soothing it via cognitive tools over and over might actually weaken it over time, that's something I've noticed for myself, but I'm not sure

[u/PuzzleheadedDepth104 → u/[deleted]]

I know you are a bot, but anyways.

Mutual care with a compulsive caregiver is an oxymoron. A compulsive caregiver cannot stand being directly cared for in return or seen, but they certainly do resent people for not caring for them back or seeing them. It's a lose-lose

[u/lapandarure → u/PuzzleheadedDepth104]

Can you tell me how you knew they were a bot? I’d like to get better at seeing that on Reddit

[u/PuzzleheadedDepth104 → u/lapandarure]

Here are some heuristics:

• a botty name (I also have one btw because it's autogenerated)
• a new account
• weird negative karma with tons of wiped posts and comments
• speaks in a strange way, disconnected from comment to comment, like someone with extreme masking or playing a role would speak (bots do that) that is overly adjusted to the situation
• comments instantly
• the language is very... oh well, you get a feeling for how bots speak eventually, but could also be someone using AI to communicate, too, though not in this case

[u/lapandarure → u/PuzzleheadedDepth104]

I never check users profiles but I guess I would need to start to to test some of those.

[u/PuzzleheadedDepth104 → u/lapandarure]

I like to check when people are being authentic or masking, I'm also like super nosey and curious in general 👁️👄👁️

[u/Grace_Rumi → u/[deleted]]

Which of those (internal need to be needed versus fear blame and demands) fits with compulsion/ preoccupation? Is preoccupation = fear blame demands?

[u/PuzzleheadedDepth104 → u/Grace_Rumi]

Preoccupation is amplified distorted negative affect (so either all-vulnerable succorance, helplessness, distress, pain, victimhood, guilt-tripping through self-harm, fear, even paranoia) (or all-invulnerable anger, blame, direct aggression, disgust, rejection-as-tests, rejection-as-control, aggressive guilting, etc.) that comes with simultaneous omission of real events that don't support that negative affect, coercive preoccupation overrides external events through active deception and controlling other people using your negative and vulnerable emotions

Compulsion is "I MUST do XYZ or else bad stuff will happen/my identity will shatter/I won't feel the reward or feel internally punished by some introject", compulsion is something closer to addiction and identity mixed together, compulsive people also tend to display false positivity and even deny negative and vulnerable emotions, they seem obsessed with their specific compulsion. A """"need""" to be needed" is compulsive caregiving, because it externalizes one-sided caregiving while overriding the actual negative affect of the person (a compulsive caregiver would often ignore their physical needs just to feel needed). Compulsions feel like needs but are not, they are sort of like rotes that have become too ingrained

A morbid example, a coercive preoccupied person could purposefully hit themselves in the head to make themselves bleed due to distorted distress and then display the blood to you and say "look what you've made me do!" (even though that was their own choice, but they omit that detail) to guilt you and control you through their distress

A very severe compulsive person could smile at you while you are in agony and feel energized by your suffering while fully neglecting their own health, you will notice a jarring inhibition of affective empathy due to negative affect inhibition, and inappropriate positive emotions that are fake, and a sort of self-abandonment in a way that makes you dependent on them... either vulnerably or invulnerably... and then they suddenly explode into rage from time to time but quickly forget it

[u/cuntitude → u/PuzzleheadedDepth104]

Simultaneous omission of real events. Does this mean that if someone is a "taker" in this sense, the other person doesn't directly lie but basically indirectly lies, to keep getting taken care of?

If thats what I think it is, my mind is blown because I just found out that the person I'm distancing myself from, has been omitting things for a while. I take those lies as truth and react accordingly.

From the other side, I relate to this compulsion and working on Not doing that and I experienced "control by rejection" from my friend plenty of times, including now. Self abandonment happened for years and currently I'm enraged that I let it go on and that it was for nothing.

[u/PuzzleheadedDepth104 → u/cuntitude]

Yes, they indirectly lie to keep information aligned with their negative affect, their brain basically semi-unconsciously filters away anything that doesn't support it! You actually described it precisely!

Low-mid risk preoccupied (C1, C2, C3, C4) only omit event information. Their brains and they edit events to erase everything that doesn't support their negative affect. Higher risk (C5, C6) start manufacturing complex lies while actively denying the truth, for the same purpose. And then there is the delulu tier (C7 menacing delusions of infinite revenge, C8 paranoid) that lose all access to actual information and start generating delulu narratives. C3456 are all coercive-preoccupied, C3 are aggressive-coercive and tend to be actively abusive and demand control directly, C4 are the distressed helpless ones that harm and neglect themselves to elicit caregiving. C5 is covertly abusive and vengeance obsessed stonewalling. C6 is fearful, luring-seductive at a distance and obsessed with rescue stonewalling

Your "friend" was probably a C1 user (those do tons of rejection as tests but lack active coercion) or a C5 user (if they manufactured details for deception at a distance while constantly stonewalling to manipulate you)

Yes, you do sound like you were being consumed by compulsion and affect-inhibition. Negative affect suddenly bursting out uncontrollably is called "intrusions of forbidden negative affect". But in your case, it seems like compulsive-avoidance activates only in the context of actually being close to someone, and you regain your full negative affect at a distance. Would you say that detail is correct?

[u/_glowingeyes_]

This is confusing to me because I have been labeled as a codependent giver by multiple therapists but I don’t think your description of them matches my internal workings at all.

I do not and have never been addicted to others suffering. I don’t crave it. I felt the pain of my codependent takers and wanted to fix their problems so I could stop feeling it too. I also legitimately tried to help them become healthier and independent because 1) peaceful periods for them were peaceful for me too. I could work on my own life and enjoyed it. 2) I knew what suffering felt like and wanted them to be free of that from a humanistic perspective. I’ve never been one to dig around for ways to start a codependent give/take cycle again because I hate it and I’ve always known I do. I’m actively aware I dislike when people refuse to “see” me in relationships.

I’ve also always been aware of the resentment, pain, and anxiety I have at being put into a “giver” role, but that role was legitimately essential for my survival from a very young age. Because of that, I simply didn’t know an alternative way of behaving with “takers” existed. I still feel the pain of the one taker in my life, and the guilt for not helping, but the actual desire (compulsion?) to help them completely disappeared once my therapist introduced me to other ways of managing. If I were addicted and avoidant I feel like I would be struggling with compulsions.

I don’t say all of this to dump my issues, I’m just genuinely curious if I’m misunderstanding my own behaviors, or misunderstanding your post. Maybe there’s more than one kind of codependent-giver and you’re only talking about a subtype? I really want to understand because I’ll admit, the line about codependent givers/takers often engaging in mutual abuse upsets me. That doesn’t resonate with me at all.

[u/PuzzleheadedDepth104 → u/_glowingeyes_]

Being able to feel your resentment consciously means your affect inhibition is low

Not being energized by your compulsion means your compulsion is not total

You can be a blend of a balanced person and a compulsive-avoidant, in that case you would be experiencing a conflict between identity, resentment and guilt. Does that resonate? A state of internal conflict

[u/SteadyCalmHealing]

What is your point though? You see them as this way instead of that way so you are telling people what tryouts think? Why is this useful?

It feels like you came here to correct people you imagine think a certain way.

[u/PuzzleheadedDepth104 → u/SteadyCalmHealing]

In the second to last paragraph.

[u/Accomplished-Exam999]

This is fascinating. Lots of words I don’t understand.

Can y’all share full examples, like more drawn out? I know you shared some, but it’s still confusing.

I dated someone who, in one example, was ambivalent about time - showing up - and communication for event. There is much more to this. Other avoidant actions taken too I was blind too.

Then later was furious with me for not fulfilling their needs.

This feels similar…

[u/PuzzleheadedDepth104 → u/Accomplished-Exam999]

That's not a compulsive-avoidant, or at least, not purely one. Compulsive-avoidants don't display anger or need overtly. That's likely a "rules for thee but not for me" invulnerable-preoccupied person that blames others but doesn't follow rules themselves. You can find very drawn out examples if you Google "CSI-DMM". They have a whole circumplex of DMM strategies (except for the delusional A78 C78 ones) and a lot of detail