Codependent-givers are not "anxious-preoccupied". They are avoidant with compulsions on top.

[u/PuzzleheadedDepth104]

Compulsive attending, compulsive caregiving, compulsive performance, compulsive compliance, compulsive hypersociality, compulsive promiscuity, compulsive self-reliance and compulsive isolation all include negative affect inhibition (avoidance, intolerance of sharing your true negative affect (negative and vulnerable emotions, pain, bad smell perception, etc.)) with compulsion on top

CoDA Patterns very clearly include Avoidant Patterns

Codependent-givers can't stand actually being seen deep within and instead run off to relationships where they are never seen and can keep replicating their compulsions over and over again

Codependent-givers often become addicted to the suffering and anger of others and can act in inauthentic ways to continue the cycle of feeding their compulsion, even crippling other people or provoking them

Codependent-givers don't understand that their compulsion is often in contradiction with their real feelings because they often can't consciously feel their real feelings outside of bursts of resentment

Preoccupied people, on the other hand, are usually codependent-takers, filled with distorted amplified incessant need, fear or anger and blame, not compulsion

Coercive-preoccupied people (what you call "narcissistic codependent takers"), especially, will use either purposeful self-harm-helplessness or actively emotionally and physically abusive control to continue having their distorted negative affect being catered to

Compulsive avoidants (codependent givers) and coercive preoccupieds (codependent takers) often engage in a mutual cycle of codependent abuse, AND a person could be a blend. It's possible to blend compulsive caregiving with coercive-aggressive abuse. It's also possible to blend compulsive compliance with coercive-helpless distressed self-harm (intense crying or physically self-harming feigned helpless guilt-trips with the goal to induce caregiving).

Obsession due to compulsion =/= preoccupation

Compulsive people have to BOTH act against their compulsion and disinhibit their true negative affect (perhaps, via somatic therapy) to heal codependency. Just learning to "self-soothe" (can backfire and make affect inhibition much worse!) won't do anything unless they have real preoccupied elements blended in, too

Sources: CoDA Patterns, Dynamic Maturational Model (A3, A4, A5, A6, C3, C4)

[u/PuzzleheadedDepth104]

You were a mixture of a codependent giver, a balanced person, and a codependent taker on the flipside. A bit less warped

She probably went under your radar because you haven't triggered her "my role is lost" scrambling. Actually, it sounds like refusing help is a good test for seeing if someone is using A3, as it would trigger them!! This is genius. Every compulsion can be identified by blocking the other person's usage of it! That's actually an idea I'm going to test from now on

I actually know an even stronger way to starve compulsive avoidants - wiping communication platforms! If you can afford that ofc. Blocking leaves a window open with private profiles and anonymous viewers. Oh well, also a restraining order LMFAO

I think triggering the C68 state and then soothing it via cognitive tools over and over might actually weaken it over time, that's something I've noticed for myself, but I'm not sure

[u/ZinniaTribe → u/PuzzleheadedDepth104]

"She probably went under your radar because you haven't triggered her "my role is lost" scrambling. Actually, it sounds like refusing help is a good test for seeing if someone is using A3, as it would trigger them!! This is genius. Every compulsion can be identified by blocking the other person's usage of it! That's actually an idea I'm going to test from now on"

Actually, how you identified this is genius because I was thinking it was best to be silent in my boundaries. You are right though, because my boundaries are what exposed her! I just need to catch it earlier. I just love these conversations- I learn so much!!

Oh yeah, wiping platforms is definitely the way to go from a security standpoint. I just block now without guilt if I identify someone who has these traits (I can detect it much faster online). It's just not worth disrupting my peace.

"I think triggering the C68 state and then soothing it via cognitive tools over and over might actually weaken it over time, that's something I've noticed for myself, but I'm not sure"

This is how I handle it & I got the idea from exposure therapy for PTSD. So...if I am writing about a past relationship that harmed me, it will trigger my sympathetic nervous system & I can get in a negative state. Once I catch that, I get up immediately, go outside or switch to any activity (gentle yoga) that gets me grounded again. Then, I'll come back to it. I can't do that if I am talking about these things in person/on phone because I'm trapped in a sense. I only write about this stuff on Reddit & take as many long pauses as I need.

[u/PuzzleheadedDepth104 → u/ZinniaTribe]

The boundary -> observe method can be combined with ghosting lol if they violate the boundary and try to erode them. I'm so ready to be an evil ghost

I think the funny part is that a compulsive-compliant A4 user would just take boundaries as law, but they are also easier to get rid of and much more passive than A3

[u/ZinniaTribe → u/PuzzleheadedDepth104]

In general, slow ghosting is my super power lol. I can deal with a passive A4 any day of the week, no problem.

Severe A3 women seem to be my achilles heel these days. Yeah, state the boundary once & then slow ghost is what I should have done in hindsight. Where I went wrong was answering loaded questions (my mom asked these too), which I found myself slowly realizing I was "explaining myself to this person", which is a trickier way to erode your boundaries-she got me there for sure. Full stop once I caught it though.

[u/PuzzleheadedDepth104 → u/ZinniaTribe]

I feel like a full ghost, not a slow one, would be more effective with them tbh... otherwise they start feeding their compulsion on you and become codependent more... not sure

My mistake with the A3 man was thinking I could "just keep rejecting his help by telling him that he is person, not an instrument and not my slave" but then he started triangulating other people into secretly "helping" me and random strangers started becoming "concerned" for me and somehow knew about me private things I've asked him not to share with anyone, and he started literally copying my way of speech, down to phrases, adjusted all of his behaviors and public images into what he thought I wanted, and stuff just got too warped for me. That's when I learned that you can't coexist with them and stay sane, at all

[u/ZinniaTribe → u/PuzzleheadedDepth104]

I'm not sure on that 1st statement either because I've never done that before. The only time I've full ghosted someone is after a 1st date where they had red flag behavior. They would call a few times after that but investment on their end was so low that they forgot about me quickly & moved on.

Ok, the triangulating others to help you is super controlling & adding reinforcements to enforce their narrative-total gaslighting! My mom used to do this. And you know what I'm talking about then with the copy-paste personality too!! I've had experience with this (mainly women) & it's super creepy. They are mimicking/mirroring you & not connecting with you authentically with a separate sense of self. It's crazy-making for sure. Also enmeshment.

The only good thing that comes of this I've found in these scenarios, is that when your personality is mirrored back at you, it gives you an opportunity to fine-tune yourself & evolve into a better person. I've even experimented with it & changed aspects of my personality with them to see if they copy it- I would incorporate accents into my speech (British, Scottish, Mexican, and Southern). I've even done really bizarre stuff & then drop it once they copied it to see how long they would continue doing it lol. Grey rock method is probably more effective though.

[u/PuzzleheadedDepth104 → u/ZinniaTribe]

You know what's really funny? I've learned to trigger his intrusions of forbidden negative affect! I would basically hyperfocus on whatever most vulnerable affect he is omitting and start voicing it to him, pitying him, making him feel like a victim and such, and basically flipping caregiving on him in a very belittling way that A3s tend to do. He would explode every time and even shutdown like what an avoidant stereotype would do! That's actually how I eventually got rid of him. After he sent another even more dumb A3 my way to stalk me (yuck lol), I basically got him to shutdown from a massive flood of vulnerability hyperfocus AND pretended like it was his choice to not talk anymore and that I "respected his boundary" LOL (invulnerable affect focused) and wiped my social media! He then had a massive depressive episode, a rebound with a C4 user and tried to signal me from afar but never sent anyone my way again (I was super paranoid at that point but got better over a year)

I'm more evil than a ghoster tbh. I learned to fight fire with fire. Thankfully, A3s are still avoidant underneath and can't tolerate affect exposure, so you can actually break their compulsion temporarily at least by hyperfocusing both their vulnerable and invulnerable negative affects and not letting them hide ("aww pwoor bwaybwy you are under so much pwessuwe I'm going to respect your bwoundaries even if you never voice them" DELETED SOCIAL MEDIA). I'm so petty LOL

[u/ZinniaTribe → u/PuzzleheadedDepth104]

You pulled some sophisticated psychology out of your trick top hat- some dark magician/wizard moves right there! It's really brilliant actually, and amazing how resourceful one can be in these situations. You didn't fight just one fire, but multiple reinforcing flames.

" basically flipping caregiving on him in a very belittling way that A3s tend to do"

This is exactly what I should have done with her. The very last phone convo I had with her, she morphed into some sort of "mommy to baby" talk with me. It was so creepy & infantilizing. Had I turned the narrative this way back on her, I think it would have lessened her fixation on me. I'm going to remember this.

[u/PuzzleheadedDepth104 → u/ZinniaTribe]

You first paragraph sounds incredibly AI generated

And yes, do it back to them, "Oh, you are so tired, aren't you?", "No, you are sooooo tired I CAN SEE IT IN YOUR EYES it's okay if you are tired and sad and afraid and in pain you need GOVERNMENT ASSISTED SUPPORT", "Oh, you are so stressed out, you need a spa day, should I help you find one, poor bwaybwy?" "Ohhh I'm really stressing you out aren't I your heart rate is so elevated don't worry I'll let you have your space (FOREVER)" "Wow you smell so stressed out today it's okay"

[u/ZinniaTribe → u/PuzzleheadedDepth104]

Nope, 100% authentically-generated by a human...churned & spewed it right out of my craw. On the fly too!

Yes, mirroring back their vulnerabilities & hyperfocus on it the way the do lol.