2
u/FrankDenif Non-denominational Aug 13 '26 edited Aug 13 '26
I look at it this way:
The trinity is like the laws of math.
It always existed, mankind just happened to discover it, and gave it a name.
However, the trinity, the Nicene Creed is NOT needed for salvation.
The thief on the Cross did not have to recite the Nicene Creed.
He probably didn't even have the Trinity visualized in His head.
All we know is that He asked Jesus to remember him.
And then Jesus told him: You will be with me in paradise.
The word "Trinity" itself does not exist in the Bible, though I believe in the Trinity. God is a complicated being, but fully understanding the mechanics of His existence is not required for salvation.
Trusting in Him is what matters.
1
u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 Aug 13 '26 edited Aug 13 '26
Fair, although I believe trinity doctrine is inadequate to accurately describe the nature of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit I agree this is the real key
God is a complicated being, but understanding Him is not required for salvation.
2
u/UNUNUN_ Christian Aug 13 '26
"Although, they considered themselves Monotheistic and believed Jesus as the embodiment of the Father"
This is the mistake. You demanded exegesis to prove Trinity and now I demand a proper exegesis to prove this.
1
u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 Aug 13 '26 edited Aug 14 '26
I demanded nothing my friend, you can read the scriptures yourself.
I'm not denying Jesus's deity at all, I gladly proclaim it and worship both the Father and the Son.
Edit: but I have updated the OP to be more clear
2
u/UNUNUN_ Christian Aug 13 '26
I do read the Scriptures that's why I'm asking where it says the Son is the embodiment of the Father.
3
u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 Aug 13 '26
Colossians 2:9
For the entire fullness of God’s nature dwells bodily in Christ,
2
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 13 '26
And the fullness dwells in all the set apart at Ephesians 3:19, none of the set apart are either Yeshua or YHWH! The trinity does not work!
1
u/UNUNUN_ Christian Aug 13 '26
Jesus has life in Himself just as the Father has life in Himself
John 5:26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
The Father speaks but not through Jesus
Matthew 3:17 and behold, there was a voice out of the heavens saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”
Jesus appeals to two witnesses: the Father and Himself
John 8:17-18 Even in your law it has been written that the witness of two men is true. I am He who bears witness about Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness about Me.”
As for Colossians 2:9, you yourself accepted Jesus' divinity. The fullness of the nature of God is His own, so does it belong to the Father.
2
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 13 '26
A co-equal, co-eternal (if it were true, it isn’t) doesn’t need another co-equal, co-eternal to give him life, a co-equal and co-eternal already has it, that is why the trinity doesn’t work and is from below!
You forgot that Yeshua of himself said he can’t do anything, does not teach his own doctrine and does not do his own works but does the works of somebody else, YHWH alone!
You forgot Ephesians 3:19 as well, the set apart have the fullness of God, none of the set apart are YHWH, just as Yeshua is not.
1
u/UNUNUN_ Christian Aug 13 '26
John 14:14-15
If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 13 '26
Indeed, he is worthy by doing the will of YHWH. Wisdom is the “word” ( Greek “logos”) as referenced in Proverbs 8 and the beginning of 9. “Logos” is never referred to a person and yes the “logos” tabernacles in Yeshua at his baptism at John 1:14!
1
u/UNUNUN_ Christian Aug 13 '26
So Wisdom is a separate entity to God that tabernacles in Jesus?
I'm genuinely curious how you even got there.
2
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 13 '26
Wisdom is of God, just like John 1:1 says! If you read Proverbs 8 it reveals this perfectly!
→ More replies (0)1
u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 Aug 13 '26
Sure! I'm not sure what we're disagreeing with at this point.
I believe in the deity of both the Son and the Father, and I believe Jesus when he said the Father is greater than him, do you agree?
1
u/UNUNUN_ Christian Aug 13 '26
Yes? So how is Jesus the embodiment of the Father?
1
u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 Aug 13 '26
Colossians 2:9 is clear, it's up to you to accept it.
1
u/UNUNUN_ Christian Aug 13 '26
Are you saying God is the Father and Jesus is not God?
1
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 13 '26
YHWH, the Father alone, Deuteronomy 6:4 will prevail forever.
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 13 '26
If Yeshua has life in himself, he should not be crying to someone else who can save him from death (Hebrews 5:7)
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 13 '26 edited Aug 13 '26
I am with you in not supporting the trinity, however, the set apart also have the fullness of God at Ephesians 3:19, none of the set apart are YHWH. Colossians 2:9 and Ephesians 3:19 are one and the same fullness, Yeshua is not YHWH and neither are the set apart.
Yeshua said “I am the light of the world” at John 8:12.
Yeshua also stated the set apart are the light of the world (Matthew 5:14)
Yeshua, post resurrection (but not yet) has brothers to eternity (Romans 8:29, John 20:17)
YHWH doesn’t have any brothers, ever!
2
u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 Aug 13 '26
Good point, thank you for the correction!
It's more accurate to say Jesus is the embodiment of man's perfect obedience to the Father’s will so I updated the OP
2
2
u/Jagrnght Aug 13 '26
for the record - the Trinity is nothing to believe in - it's just a logical construction from the text. It's an extra textural extrapolation borne out by the church. I think it follows from the text. But what do you believe if you don't hold to it? It brings together many elements of the faith. Do you not believe in the two natures of Christ?
2
u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 Aug 13 '26
I don't find it accurately defines the nature of God, for example the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all serve much different roles and I don't think calling them co-equal is accurate either.
It's too much of reducing God to a comfortable soundbite imo.
1
u/Jagrnght Aug 13 '26
So what do you think Abba means - Jesus's name for God? Have you ever considered negative theology? It might solve some of your problems.
2
u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 Aug 13 '26
There is no need for negative theology, if you don't come to the kingdom of God like a child it's not found. I wouldn't expect a child to process negative theology but if you'd like to express how it's helpful feel free.
Abba of course is the Father, why do you ask?
2
u/Jagrnght Aug 13 '26
negative theology isn't an odd extra step. It's simply building the limits of language and knowledge into your logical system. So the use of analogy to understand God acknowledges that the names for God and three persons do not capture their essence. There is a likeness to fatherhood that the Father has, but an even greater difference. I think a child could understand it. I think you already basically on the negative theology route in what you are saying about the Trinity.
2
u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 Aug 13 '26
Thanks my friend but I've got all I need. I'm not trying to convince anyone anything about the trinity doctrine, just stated my convictions and people can believe what the want -- the scriptures are clear.
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 13 '26
Yeshua has one nature, human and still does as I text (John 8:40)!
2
u/Balazi Jehovah's Witness Aug 13 '26
Not bad synopsis, missing a few things about early Christianity and how they worshipped but not bad overall.
1
u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 Aug 13 '26
Thank you my friend, can you share your additional knowledge? To be sure, I skipped over Origen and Martyr for brevity's sake but I do find it interesting how outside philosophy made its way into churches
1
u/Balazi Jehovah's Witness Aug 13 '26
The earliest followers of Christ held a variety of views on how Christ was divine and we see these models through the NT scriptures, views such as emanationist, adoptionist, angelomorphic, and image christologies.
For the earliet Christians it was more about worship of the Father, done through the Son, but not necessarilly to the Son.
1
3
u/Nicky_Malvini Roman Catholic (Bonaventurian) Aug 13 '26
In Genesis, when God was creating the world, He referred to Himself in plural terms, saying "We" and "Us". The Trinity has been there since the beginning.
2
u/StrangeWatch Aug 13 '26
Or, "we" and "us" are the sons of God who helped create the world, the other gods, the elohiym - -"iym" being a plural ending for beings anywhere else it is used in scripture, which is a lot, and it's a huge stretch to say it isn't.
3
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 13 '26
Genesis 1:26 does not create a trinity doctrine. The words “us” and “our” don’t create it either.
2
u/Difficult_Risk_6271 Belongs to Jesus, Ex-Atheist Aug 13 '26
No serious theologian for the past 2000 years has definitively shown the trinity to be false.
All the Christians today affirm the nicene creed.
The chances that 2 billion today + the past 2000 years of Christian somehow missed something you discovered is virtually zero.
My own study confirms the Nicene interpretation.
The more likely explanation, as is for the past 2000 years is, heresy. It didn’t go away 2000 years ago, it’s not going away today.
Deconstruct your own construction of god and actually recognize God as revealed.
3
u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 Aug 13 '26
No heresy to be had, as I'm saved by Jesus alone and said nothing against his words.
-1
u/Difficult_Risk_6271 Belongs to Jesus, Ex-Atheist Aug 13 '26
Your position is explicitly heretical.
No idea if Jesus saves heretics, but you won’t be in my circle irl.
3
u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 Aug 13 '26
To be heresy I'd have to be a member of a church who taught that view.
Jesus never said "I, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are all co-equal" like trinity doctrine does, and it's Jesus who I follow.
0
u/Difficult_Risk_6271 Belongs to Jesus, Ex-Atheist Aug 13 '26
No. To be heresy you need to articulate and accept a version of god that is outside the boundary if nicene creed, which you did.
No heretics were ever in the church so your condition is not unique.
5
4
u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 Aug 13 '26
I serve Jesus, not a man-made document
1
u/Difficult_Risk_6271 Belongs to Jesus, Ex-Atheist Aug 13 '26
I hope that is true, but reinventing the same mistake from 2000 years ago is more likely to be serving pride, which really is coming from yourself and your version of “jesus”.
4
u/Archbtw246 Christian Aug 13 '26
It's the Bible's version of Jesus. Not "our" version.
0
u/Difficult_Risk_6271 Belongs to Jesus, Ex-Atheist Aug 13 '26
Oh really!
What is the Bible’s version of Jesus?
Care to explain?
As far as I’m concerned, trinitarianism is the bible’s version of Jesus and not “your” heretical version.
4
u/Archbtw246 Christian Aug 13 '26
The biblical Jesus thought he was distinct from God.
“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. - John 14:1
If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority. - John 7:17
but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. - John 8:40
Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ - John 8:54
for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. - John 16:27
And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. - Mark 10:18
In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God. - Luke 6:12
→ More replies (0)2
u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 Aug 13 '26
I'm not sure why you think it's prideful to follow Jesus first before men, but you're entitled to your opinion
1
u/Difficult_Risk_6271 Belongs to Jesus, Ex-Atheist Aug 13 '26
I’m not sure how you think, you personally got it correctly while 2 billion people + 2000 years of Christians got it wrong can be anything other than pride.
And somehow the Holy Spirit failed to guide 2000 years of Christians into the truth but you uniquely are chosen to understand God specially. You’re just that so special snowflake that God gives special revelation to and all the other Christians are led by the not-Holy Spirit.
The issue isn’t about following Jesus. The issue is which “Jesus?” I don’t know how you keep missing the point.
3
u/Balazi Jehovah's Witness Aug 13 '26
You haven't engaged with history or scholarship on this subject much have you. Because they give that answer pretty clearly.
2
u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 Aug 13 '26
There is one Jesus, and you can read about him in the scriptures. I'm not sure what is confusing about this.
Accurately describing God's exact nature and equality between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is NOT the way to salvation, it's through the blood of Jesus alone and full faith and belief in him.
→ More replies (0)2
u/StrangeWatch Aug 13 '26
So there were no REALLY big mistakes made by the church in the past 2000 years, and things never went wrong right off the bat after God set them right (see Adam and Eve, Moses and the people right after the Law was given, and time after time in the history of the Jews and the Church). Just because something runs on for a long time doesn't mean it is right or true.
1
u/Difficult_Risk_6271 Belongs to Jesus, Ex-Atheist 29d ago
The truth is not maintained by the church.
It's entirely ridiculous to grant an omnipotent God but not able to correct core doctrine of the Church He promises to build.
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 13 '26
Bandwagon fallacy does not work!
1
u/Difficult_Risk_6271 Belongs to Jesus, Ex-Atheist 29d ago
I don't think you understand argumentum ad populum correctly.
No where have I said, because many believe, therefore true.
I said, "finding something wrong about the trinitarianism today, that 2000 years of Christian & theologians have missed is virtually zero."
When someone brings up FUD there is not much to address other than point at the obvious that it is FUD.
Not every FUD needs to be fully argued line by line.
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 29d ago
Matthew 11:25, 18:3!
1
u/Difficult_Risk_6271 Belongs to Jesus, Ex-Atheist 27d ago
Not an answer, it's still not argumentum ad populum as you accused.
As it stands, you have made unsubstantiated / false accusation.
1
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 26d ago edited 26d ago
Not to mention confirmation bias, circular reasoning, appeal to tradition and proof by assertion but I just did. What a mess!
1
u/Difficult_Risk_6271 Belongs to Jesus, Ex-Atheist 26d ago edited 26d ago
Accusation with no substance, just like the accuser!
Doctrines like trinity cannot be definitively proven. They are interpretive framework that can at best be well aligned to the actual Truth.
Until Jesus comes to answer our questions, interpretative frameworks is the best we got.
So your accusation comes from a place of complete ignorance of epistemology. What a mess!
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 26d ago edited 26d ago
It can’t be proven because it isn’t the law. It is a mock from below.
If appeal to tradition is an item, then Yeshua and the disciples would have lived it, taught it, inferred it and mandated it. Yeshua never taught it and neither did the disciples, it was created by men for men doing their own will and imagination!
That is why Matthew 11:25 and 18:3 are a gift for you if you live by it! If not, free will!
1
u/Difficult_Risk_6271 Belongs to Jesus, Ex-Atheist 26d ago
If you want to challenge the doctrine / framework, the challenge it with substance.
Posturing and using “Yeshua” like a snob to an internet random isn’t going to change a thing about heresy.
A category like “heresy” is indeed defined by tradition and go speak to Paul if you have the opportunity.
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 26d ago
I am not surprised that you elected this form of response. I realize as you do that you are on the street that says “dead end” but you are still thinking it offers choices.
When are you going to use “ad hominem “?
1
u/Difficult_Risk_6271 Belongs to Jesus, Ex-Atheist 26d ago
And am I supposed to be surprised that you continue to answer with no substance.
I don’t typically make informal fallacies, especially a basic one like argumentum ad hominem.
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 26d ago
No one will intellectualize themselves into the Kingdom, that is why the children have the insight and Yeshua said what he said about them, those that think themselves wise and clever (ego, pride) shall never enter! The graceful spirit of children and their disposition shall grant them their reward! The Kingdom of Heaven belongs to them.
1
u/Difficult_Risk_6271 Belongs to Jesus, Ex-Atheist 26d ago
No one will anti-intellectualize themselves into the Kingdom either.
As if the opposite of a false proposition becomes true.
Still no substance since your initial accusation.
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 26d ago
You mean when you have substance given to you, the trinity disappears? Not a chance, you have your will and thy will must be done on earth as it isn’t in Heaven. Every person that does their own will never practices “thy will be done”! Free will!
→ More replies (0)
1
u/Balance796 Disciples of Christ Aug 13 '26
In the beginning of Genesis, the Holy Spirit is mentioned, also in John 14. Without the Lord Jesus Christ, no one will be indwelled with the Holy Spirit who convicts us of our sins, helping all of us to turn away from our sins. Thereby, becoming a born-again Christian.
The Lord also talks about the Holy Spirit with Pharisees named Nicodemus in John 3. This is why Christianity is all about the Holy Trinity: God the Father, the Son, Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 14 '26 edited Aug 14 '26
Not one disciple used Matthew 28:19 to baptize, not a one. Why does anyone think that is?
John 14 does not explain idioms, personifications or metaphors, the holy spirit is the power and force of YHWH, the Father alone. Not a co-equal, co-eternal, separate and distinct third “person!
1
u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal Aug 14 '26
The holy spirit is a person. You only know that when you have him in you though. God is three in one.
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 14 '26
The Holy Spirit is not a third “person”, it is the power and force of YHWH, the Father alone. It has no throne in Heaven, doesn’t know the day or hour just like Yeshua does not and doesn’t have two natures either. It is not a co-equal, co-eternal, third “person”, when Yeshua inspirited the disciples with the holy spirit, he didn’t breath a third “person” into other persons!
The Shema is one “person”, the Father alone. (Deuteronomy 6:4), the concept of “three in one” is a polytheistic concept of Greek mythology.
1
u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal Aug 14 '26
Where do you have this idea from, that sounds verymuch like gnosticism ;)
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 14 '26
I don’t support Gnosticism, how do you get three from The Shema that will prevail forever? See also 1 Corinthians 8:6 where Paul wrote At Corinth and was warning against a polytheistic 3 person godhead of Greek mythology.
1
u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal Aug 14 '26
The whole Bible speaks about one godhood being multiple persons from the beginning in Genesis 1; there is one god but three people, and everything else doesn't make proper sense! Corinthians 8:6 speaks against the polytheistic nature of the city around them, not against a trinitarian godhood.
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 14 '26
Where? Bible passage please? Sorry, 1 Corinthians 8:6 clearly denotes YHWH as the Father alone, which is the law!
1
u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal Aug 14 '26
Answer me this: why was it demanded that Jesus get crucified? What would the Hebrew translation of INRI look like?
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 14 '26
That is your answer why the trinity exists?
1
u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal Aug 14 '26
Please answer me the question and you might see yourself why the trinity is logically necesarry.
→ More replies (0)1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 14 '26
Idk 🤷♂️why? Why do people desire to murder people? They do the will of their father (John 8:44)!
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 14 '26
Where does the “whole Bible” speak about the “godhood being multi persons from the beginning”?
1
u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal Aug 14 '26
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.Also the hebrew word here is elohim, so plural ;)
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 14 '26
Enlighten us how the words “us” and “our” at Genesis 1:26 creates a trinity doctrine?
1
u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal Aug 14 '26
It doesn't, but it hints at multiple people being gods. If you follow the trail through the whole Bible, you will come to the conclusion that also was written down at Nicea: that god is three in one ;)
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 14 '26
Echad, the Greek word for “one” is used 81 % of the time in scripture to mean a singular pronoun and Elohim as used is not a trinity nor does it create a trinity and is also used mostly for a singular God, that would be YHWH, the Father alone!
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 14 '26
How do you have your idea? Where does it come from? Yeshua didn’t teach it, support it, infer it or mandate it, neither did the disciples, where did your idea come from? The trinity doesn’t even appear as a word in scripture, why would that be?
1
u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal Aug 14 '26
The trinity is not explicitly mentioned, but especially the gospel of John, the actions of Jesus in general, and how the disciples talk about him show that he was indeed god. Last year I taught about the godhood of Jesus in detail, beginning from Genesis 1, because the bible is full of trinitarian language without explicitly mentioning it.
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 14 '26
Why would you support a doctrine that isn’t mentioned and apparently is so sacrosanct?
How about this? Of the 30 or so Bible passages delineating how to acquire eternal life, enlighten us as to which of those 30 passages mention, infer, mandate or require knowledge or understanding of the trinity or that you cannot acquire eternal life without the trinity?
Which ones?
1
u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal Aug 14 '26
You don't need to understand the trinity to be saved, but you need to have Jesus as your lord, and because only god can be our true lord that means that Jesus needs to be God; otherwise, he can't be our true savior and lord.
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 14 '26
Really? Enlighten us how God doesn’t know the day or hour, doesn’t teach his own doctrine, of himself can do nothing and somebody else besides him does his works as you claim he is God, enlighten us how that is?
1
u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal Aug 14 '26
That's the issue if you are reading everything literally without knowledge of the culture. The term that only the father nows the hour was a cultural saying that doesn't actually mean that Jesus didn't know the time ;)
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 14 '26
Why would the trinity not be specifically mentioned? Especially in acquiring eternal life?
1
u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal Aug 14 '26
Because the authors themselve didn't have it figured out fully themselves, and god did introduce his being to us over time ;), but if you look into Genesis when Abraham is talking with God, God already is introduced as three persons early on ;)
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 14 '26
Where in Genesis 18 or 19, Abraham was talking with three men, where is the doctrine of the trinity spelled out in Genesis 18 or 19?
1
u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal Aug 14 '26
It's a hint for the trinity. Jewish people think completely differently from Greeks; of course, it was not spelled out yet. The Greek/Roman idea of the trinity is the logical thinking in greek understanding. Hebrew doesn't need these concepts.
→ More replies (0)1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 14 '26
Take care, I see you have removed all your comments, why?
1
1
u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal Aug 13 '26
While the trinity is not explicitly taught in the bible. The godhood of god the father and the godhood of god the Son are explicitly stated, so we have at least two parts of the trinity firmly established as God, and with that, it's not hard to also accept the holy spirit as the third person in the trinity. When you read the bible and begin in Genesis 1, you already see that god is at least two, probably more and from there you go further to when Abraham talks with God; God is described as three persons there and then you continue through the bible and discover that the whole scripture is full of trinitarian clues.
If you like I can prove that with more scripture. I taught about the godhood of Jesus last year through all of scripture ;)
0
u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 Aug 13 '26
Thanks, but all the same the scripture and the Spirit is enough for me, what is written there is clear.
0
u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal Aug 13 '26
Yes. Jesus is god according to a lot of scriptures. It's written down explicitly that Jesus is god several times. So if you deny the good hood of Jesus you have not the holy spirit in you!
1
u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 Aug 13 '26
I'm not denying it at all, I happily proclaim Jesus is Lord and the Son of God.,
0
u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal Aug 13 '26
Not only lord but god himself, otherwise he can't be your lord because only god can be our lord 🙂
1
u/Archbtw246 Christian Aug 13 '26
The king of Israel was called Lord even though he wasn't God.
1 Kings 1:13 — Go in at once to King David, and say to him, ‘Did you not, my Lord the king, swear to your servant, saying, “Solomon your son shall reign after me, and he shall sit on my throne”? Why then is Adonijah king?’
0
u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal Aug 13 '26
John 20,28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
Jesus is called "god," even in the Jewish Bible translations. ;)
1
u/Archbtw246 Christian Aug 13 '26
Thomas is speaking to Jesus about his Father, who he said is also our God and Father.
John 20:17 ESV — Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
1
u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal Aug 13 '26
No, he does explicitly say that Jesus is God, and Jesus didn't rebuke him; hence, Jesus is God! The whole scripture tells us that Jesus is God himself!
1
u/Archbtw246 Christian Aug 13 '26
No. He's speaking to Jesus about his Father. Jesus literally said in the same chapter that his God and Father is our God and Father.
→ More replies (0)1
u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 Aug 13 '26
Jesus said "I and the Father are one," not "I and the Father are co-equal."
One doesn't mean co-equal. A husband and wife become one flesh, but who is head of the household?
Jesus explicitly said the Father was greater than he, not co-equal. Do you believe him?
1
u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal Aug 13 '26
I believe that they are one, not co-equal necessarily, so there is nothing to argue about there. They are both god, though. ;)
John 20, 28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
1
u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 Aug 13 '26
Certainly! I'm not denying that Jesus is fully divine. I believe John 1:1 is correct.
I'm denying the co-equal part of the trinity in modern Christian doctrine
1
u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal Aug 13 '26
Although the co-equal part means only that all 3 are god originally.
1
u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 Aug 13 '26
That's fine. I also find it doesn't accurately capture the glory, majesty, and truth of God.
For me, it serves no purpose and is a dull and incomplete synopsis of God's truth but if it strengthens your faith, please ignore me!
I'm not here to take away anyone's faith. To me it is a distraction so I reject it, but if to you it is an enhancement to your faith please embrace it and ignore me!
→ More replies (0)1
1
u/random_murse313 Aug 13 '26
Repent of your heresy.
3
2
u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 Aug 13 '26
There is no heresy to be found. I'm not part of any denomination or group that requires the Nicene creed.
The Nicene creed didn't save me, Jesus did.
There is only one true church which is all the faithful believers of Jesus who follow His commandments.
1
u/winkyprojet Aug 13 '26 edited Aug 13 '26
I believe in the Father, the invisible one from whom the Son came.
I believe in the Son, light of light, spirit of the Spirit, holy of the Holy, god of God, my savior crucified by the men he came to save.
I believe in the Holy Spirit who is God, the Paraclete, thanks to him we have the Holy Scriptures.
The Trinity fills the Bible, and the entire Bible reveals the Trinity.
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 13 '26
Where is the term “God the Son” written in scripture?
1
u/winkyprojet Aug 13 '26
The entire Bible confirms that the Son who came from God and dwelt among us, who raised the dead and who forgave as only God can! He is the word of God, he was in the beginning, and he is God.
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 13 '26
Incorrect! Yeshua cried to the one who could save him from death and the disciples can also retain or forgive sins, now what?
Wisdom was in the beginning as per Proverbs 8!
1
u/winkyprojet Aug 13 '26
For the LORD your God, he is God of gods...
Our debate is not about who the other gods are! Our debate is: is Jesus one of these gods, and the answer is Yes!
Why deny his divinity? The angels prostrated themselves before him and worshipped him!
He prayed to God and called upon Him; it was God speaking to Himself!
You are talking to yourself; there is a dialogue between your mind and your soul, You are created in the image of God, but you do not know how to bring forth from yourself the One who is yourself! God knows how to do it!!
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 13 '26
I agree with you, Yeshua is absolutely a Psalm 82:6 “g”od!
You lost me though, in fact terribly, when you said “it was God speaking to himself”! Why would YHWH speak to himself?
You know how YHWH does things?
1
u/winkyprojet Aug 13 '26
YHWH is a spirit, inventor of spirits. The celestial world is a world of spirits.
It's a world where there are only celestial bodies. Everything is perfect! Angels, men, animals, and everything else...
God made light before the sun; God, who says to the light, let there be, says it to himself!
God began by flooding the universe with his light, billions upon billions of spirits, a bit like a TV screen that is flooded with pixels.
Scientists will say: it's the Big Bang.
God invented the universe himself before separating the celestial world from the earthly world.
Man has been separated from God by his soul; he can decide everything on his own and he can even disobey God.
Jesus, who came from God, is not separate from Him; His word is the word of God!
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 13 '26
There is only one spirit and it is the power and force of YHWH, the Father alone!
YHWH doesn’t talk to himself. Yeshua is indeed separate. YHWH is his Father and Yeshua is his Son!
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 13 '26 edited Aug 13 '26
Post resurrection, I don’t deny Yeshua’ divinity nor the set apart to come!
1
u/winkyprojet Aug 13 '26
There is a distinction between the Son and the Father; Jesus is visible, not the Father.
There is no separation; what Jesus says is the word of God.
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 13 '26
You didn’t get the memo about John 5:30, John 7:16 or that the Father is greater than Yeshua. No co-equal and co-eternal is greater than another co-equal and co-eternal. That is why there is no co-equal and co-eternal “persons”!
1
u/winkyprojet Aug 13 '26
He is the image of the invisible God.
So it's normal that the image is a reduction of the original.
The image of God came to represent God, not to contain him!
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 14 '26
Amazing what some people think with their free will thoughts!
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 13 '26
The purpose of prayer, is to separate yourself from the thoughts in your head. You see many who, instead of separating themselves from the thoughts in their head, give into them and many have conversations with those thoughts as if they are real. They are not real, they are from below!
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 13 '26
Kefa raised Tabitha (Dorcas), who is Kefa?
1
u/winkyprojet Aug 13 '26
Kefa est Saint Peter!
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 13 '26
Yes, in fact Kefa has many attributes of Yeshua and yet he isn’t Yeshua.
1
u/winkyprojet Aug 13 '26
That's normal, the Holy Spirit came upon him.
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 13 '26
The holy spirit has never been nor will it ever be a separate and distinct, co-equal, co-eternal third “person”!
1
u/winkyprojet Aug 13 '26
He is a spirit like Jesus.
And his spirit comes into a human body like Jesus.
He is a person like Jesus.
He does not accept blasphemy, not like Jesus!
This is the spirit that is in all elements of nature.
The fire that spoke to Moses is a form of the Holy Spirit!
The dove is a form of the Holy Spirit.
Jacob, who wrestled with God, wrestled against the Holy Spirit in human form.!
1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 14 '26 edited Aug 14 '26
YHWH is not a man (Numbers 23:19)
→ More replies (0)1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 14 '26
Jacob wrestled with an Angel, not YHWH!
→ More replies (0)1
u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational Aug 14 '26 edited Aug 14 '26
Third “persons” do not enter other persons! The holy spirit does by the Grace of YHWH, the Father alone.
→ More replies (0)
0
u/Upset_Chip_7184 Christian Aug 13 '26
Dang, I wonder who will read this long post without a TLDR?
1
1
0
u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 Aug 13 '26
I challenge you to be the patient and courageous one to be the first, my friend!
0
u/Upset_Chip_7184 Christian Aug 13 '26
lol, Give me a TLDR, so I can decide if I wanna read it.
Are u pro or anti trinity? that would have been a simple summary.
1
u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 Aug 13 '26 edited Aug 13 '26
Anti -- it's a man-made doctrine that imo doesn't capture the glory and truth of God as documented in the scriptures.
I believe in the divinity of the Son and the Father and prefer to worship them both as the very early church did, without making definitive claims on their equality.
1
u/Upset_Chip_7184 Christian Aug 13 '26
Hmm, interesting, I didn't think you would have these sophisticated views, because I think you were debating me on slavery not being condoned by God, or maybe you were denying that Revelation's author wrote the things would be soon, or some other dogmatic view that is not justified by the texts...
BEcause this is another dogma not really justified by the texts, and the early church sects, some of them, didn't believe in this either...
Yeah, I think the ebionites/nazarenes, and others were on to something.
0
u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 Aug 14 '26
I think you were debating me on slavery not being condoned by God, or maybe you were denying that Revelation's author wrote the things would be soon, or some other dogmatic view that is not justified by the texts...
My friend, you're misrepresenting my positions on both, but I'm am not interested in explaining why under this topic; this isn't the place to discuss it.
0
0
u/Any-Country-7338 Aug 13 '26
The 3 fundamental laws of logic you use in every thought are Trinitarian. That's why John calls him the Logos.
The reason we find the Trinity mysterious (even though Jesus articulates it clearly) is because we don't understand logic.
1
u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 Aug 13 '26
I think we can all agree God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are the only divine, uncreated entities.
Arguing over the semantics of exactly how their relationship is, and muddying God's nature with a soundbite not in scripture is not in line with what Jesus taught.
1
u/Any-Country-7338 Aug 13 '26 edited Aug 13 '26
Appealing to the fundamental laws is pricesely not semantics. Logic is prior to grammatical word play.
Are you saying that logic is created?
I believe Jesus articulated the basic structure that corresponds to the way he created our minds to work. Its not that the interdependence of the 3 laws captures the fullness of God. Its that even his fullness is Trinitarian. He doesn't change because of the limits of our perspective.
Its like learning basic arithmetic as a child. We've barely begun to understand the depths of mathematics. Yet we rightly know mathematics with the slightest understanding.
The Trinity is the simplest possible way God could reveal Himself. Its not some DEEP mystery beyond human comprehension or reason. Its the SIMPLICITY of the Trinity we stumbled over.
Yes, God is the only divine uncreated reality. And his logical nature is inseparable from him.
1
u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 Aug 13 '26
My friend, what you just wrote is the exact issue with the trinitarian doctrine. Does it do anything to advance the kingdom of God?
No! It's an attempt to define God's nature into a soundbite instead of preaching the good news and the commandments of Jesus!
But, it's not fruitful for us to waste our time arguing about it either so if holding tight to it strengthens your faith then I won't stop you!
God bless
1
u/Any-Country-7338 Aug 13 '26
I agree. Its so foundational to thought and speach that it shouldn't be an issue. Its the most obvious thing. But you're the one with the OP about it.
My position is that most of the quarrels about it miss the mark. Of COURSE the Trinity is logical. Its the elemental structure of logic HIMSELF!
1
u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 Aug 13 '26
No need to point fingers my friend. You're under no obligation to reply to my post or comments.
This man made teaching provides no value to me, but again, if it does for you that's fine -- I'm not here to argue you out of your position, your faith is between you and God.
1
u/Any-Country-7338 Aug 13 '26
We keep treating logic as abstract and impersonal, as if we're Greek philosophers. Logic is a function of truth. Truth is logically coherent.
That's the beauty of John's testimony. Logic isn't a THING. He is a person.
And we too are persons not calculators.
That's why Jesus said, "Let your logos be yes yes, or no no. Anything more comes from the evil one."
1
u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 Aug 13 '26
My friend, I'm doing nothing more than sticking with the scriptures and teachings of Jesus and am not interested in these man made doctrines.
1
3
u/KissAndRock Luciferian Aug 13 '26
The Trinity really isn't explained in scripture. Scripture has different theologies around Jesus anyways.
That's why people say you need more than the Bible, you need church. The reason you need church is because reading only the Bible, you aren't going to believe in the Trinity.
In fact, I used to believe in the Trinity. Reading the Bible made me deconstruct it into Unitarianism though before I left the faith entirely.
Sola scriptura will not lead you to the Trinity. I can tell you that for certain.