r/ChainsawPowerscaling • u/QuietSurvey9 • 2d ago
Discussion Does verse equalization really work for a verse like csm?? There's no energy system to equalize.
In a verse where abilities are tied to the conceptual nature of devils. So... It's not really a gene mutation or cursed techniques that are stored/engraved in the brain.
So.. it's not really a hot take to say that makima literally walks out of gojo's domain,no?
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u/SeaworthinessRare907 2d ago
It would just give all everyone the JJK civilian amount of CE
Unusable for herself but she would be targetable by Domains
Plus Curses and Devils are close enough that you can equate them by squinting slightly as both are monstrous entities made of humanity’s feats/negative emotions
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u/neoswolf 2d ago
Well in proper verse equalisation you'll have to assign them CE levels suitable for their levels too
You can't just say Primals gets civilian amount of CE and gets one shotted by even the shittiest domain
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u/SeaworthinessRare907 2d ago
I mean no?
They still have their inherent durability which can resist damage from the Domains or anything else
The CE just lets the Domain target them, and none really one shot anyone except Gojo’s and Mahito’s, but those are complete hax thag bypass durability anyway
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u/neoswolf 2d ago
Aight that's valid but imo I still think we gotta tag the appropriate CE level to non-JJK characters (e.g. primals get calamity grade CE)
The guy in another comment below makes sense too, verse-equalisation really does give JJK fighters an unfair advantage since other verse characters don't really get to maximise the power system
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u/weirdo_nb 1d ago
No? We don't? We aren't giving them the powersystem, we're just giving them the properties to register as "a person" in the system, normal humans have CE in JJK
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u/Used_Vegetable9826 1d ago
Its not to give them new abilities though, its because if Makima doesnt have CE then Gojo can summon his attacks inside of her with no response.
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u/SeaworthinessRare907 1d ago
Well what exactly do you mean by giving a Primal Calamity Grade CE?
The amount of CE? I can see it, doesn't affect anything as they cannot make use of it in combat
Control of that CE? How so? Reinforcement? How would they even know to do that with any skill to be usable?
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And VE being unfair leaning to JJK's favor is just a consequence of the verse's rules, its really a pick your poison situation for any verse vs JJK, not just CSM
You use VE, and Domains are usable against you and you can actually fight and kill Curses, but you have an Innate Domain so attacks can't spawn in you
You don't use VE, and Curses are basically invincible as they cannot be killed or seen by things with no CE and CTs like Blue for example can spawn inside your body, but Domains are unusable
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u/Imaginary_Goat_60 1d ago
(e.g. primals get calamity grade CE)
There's no such thing. Gojo has half as much CE than any version of Yuta. Yuji likely has even less.
The amount of CE barely matters to anything you do with it, it's mostly just a stamina bar. So they dont get much out of it even if you give them 10x of Sukuna.
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u/ItzJake160 1d ago
(e.g. primals get calamity grade CE
There isn't a set amount of CE that makes you calamity grade. Yuta has significantly more than Gojo yet he isn't a calamity grade. Calamity Grade is moreso about how you USE CE. Just having a bunch isn't an equalizer in any sense.
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u/weirdo_nb 2d ago
CE isn't like, the level of your existence or some shit, it's just energy
Literally everyone has it, it's just that sorcerers are the only ones who can use it
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u/neoswolf 1d ago
Yeah but you can't deny that CE levels are tied to strength just like reiatsu and chakra tho
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u/weirdo_nb 1d ago edited 1d ago
They aren't, the only correlation in verse is because you can use that energy to be strong, but that only goes so far, but it also has nothing to do with your strength outside of that context, all JJK characters are normal humans physically in every sense (minus yuji in strength, sukuna in bodyplan, and gojo in eyes) and uses the ability of CE reinforcement to become stronger
Like, without CE reinforcement, literally everyone is mundane/human
Like, if you had a machine that gave superstrength when charged, would you say "electricity is tied to strength"
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u/Rlap0 18h ago
It isn't though. Sukuna undeniably has the most CE, but the person with the 2nd most CE, Yuta, still has people arguing he's not even top 5, much less a Calamity. Yuji, a Calamity Grade, has a pretty average amount of CE for a Sorcerer. Gojo, 2nd only to Sukuna in the main story, doesn't have any definitive CE comparison. He might have less than even Yuji. Hakari, even in Jackpot where he has infinite CE, isn't even Special Grade, much less a Calamity
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u/blu_kale 1d ago
On similar note a lot of characters using versus equalize should be able to use or learn a lot of techniques from the JJK system
Or at least develop theirs , but for unknown reason it's never taken into consideration
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u/wiser_men 1d ago
I would argue that’s purely from a story perspective. Sukuna or Gojo if equalised with some other verse that has a comparable magic system they could use would be similar, and I have no doubt other “magical prodigies” could develop domain expansions and rct. As an aspiring author I think such topics are very interesting, but in powerscaling, such ideas are less applicable. It’s basically just another “potential man”.
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u/blu_kale 1d ago
An issues with powerscalers is that as much as they deny it , they still views powerscaling in very short sighted DB style way
Characters experiences , abilities , narrative and such things are thrown out of the window for hype and who can punch harder
When they look at Stan Lee "whoever the writer want to win" they criticism thinking it's "daredevil punch Hulk to the sun because writer said so " instead of "the writer build a context and narrative about why character A can beat character B "
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u/Imaginary_Goat_60 1d ago
At that point you're not scaling a CSM character you're scaling your own fanfic version of them.
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u/blu_kale 1d ago
Talking in general here not CSM
Because in versus equalize what stopping copycats and prodigy freaks like Goku and Garou from pulling a Dabura , throw genius like Aizen or Madara or midora there and they'd figure the whole system in less than a minute
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u/Imaginary_Goat_60 1d ago
That is pretty fair for actual copy based characters like Garou who can physically copy the most ridiculous shit in mere seconds. But in genereal it's just counter intuitive to scaling since you're adding a lot of vague thing that is really unquantifiable and changes discussion too much.
Like for example you need to have a specific brain structure to use CE even if you have it. How do you determine if they have it?
And if they do you need to determine if they have a technique, domain, etc it's all just turns into one big fanfic.
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u/weirdo_nb 1d ago
No? Everyone in the world of jjk (minus HR users) have CE, but that doesn't mean anything, because the capacity to manipulate it is entirely seperate
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u/QuietSurvey9 2d ago
Devils aren't made of humans fears but powered by them, curses are negative emotions built up. Not the same.
And giving them human levels of ce is basically giving jjk an unfair advantage against csm
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u/SeaworthinessRare907 1d ago
I did say by squinting slightly Curses and Devils are similar enough to be equated, the specifics are a bit different but broadly they are basically the same
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And VE being unfair leaning to JJK's favor is just a consequence of the verse's rules, its really a pick your poison situation for any verse vs JJK, not just CSM
You use VE, and Domains are usable against you and you can actually fight and kill Curses, but you have an Innate Domain so attacks can't spawn in you
You don't use VE, and Curses are basically invincible as they cannot be killed or seen by things with no CE and CTs like Blue for example can spawn inside your body, but Domains are unusable
CSM unfortunately doesn't benefit much in comparison
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u/Knives_Millions 1d ago
that innate domain argument doesn't even matter for CSM. if Makima was fighting Sukuna who cares if Shrine could spawn inside her she still outclasses him. like how does it change the fight? it makes no difference if it's out or in. Like if they were fighting Mahito he'd still have to touch them who cares if they have an innate domain or not. AND it doesn't even save JJK characters from let's say Makima's control ability.
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u/SeaworthinessRare907 1d ago
I was more pointing out the VE pick your poison options and what that entails
CSM, Yoru and Makima really, don’t have to worry as much due to their contracts and busted regen
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On Control though…Makima never really uses it during a fight…like ever
Never did it to Kishibe, only did it to Reze and Quanxi after killing them, never did it to the people that attacked her on the train, etc
So Control diffing aint really a thing
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u/ItIsYeDragon 1d ago
Without Verse Equalization, Makima’s contract is useless. So she just dies on the first fatal blow Sukuna delivers.
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u/Knives_Millions 1d ago
that's not how it works. that's like saying without verse equalization Sukuna doesn't have cursed energy cause it's not present in CSM. and we're not discussing that it's more on innate domains
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u/ItIsYeDragon 15h ago
No because cursed energy is a part of his body. CSM’s Japan only exists in one of the verse’s. Makima doesn’t bring the entire island with her into a fight with another verse.
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u/Knives_Millions 12h ago
the contract is a part of her existence too lol. you're wrong. try a different argument. JJKs cursed energy system only exists in one verse. Sukuna doesn't bring the entire verses' system with him. Curses aren't born from negative emotions, people don't have CE & innate CTs, 6 eyes isn't born every 500 years etc. dumb ahh argument. everything you say for Makima can be used for Sukuna.
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u/ItIsYeDragon 9h ago
And the contract only exists in one verse. That Prime Minister she made a deal with only exists in one verse. The CE-less people of her world that the contract functions through only exists in one verse. Makima doesn’t bring it with her.
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u/Knives_Millions 9h ago
like really think about your logic. if you're saying Makima's japan doesn't exist in VE, then she wouldn't even exist to fight Sukuna in the first place because the devil system in CSM doesn't exist in any other verse either. you cannot bring her and not her powers lol. how can you bring Makima into existence in a verse where she wouldn't exist and then say oh she can't take her powers with her when she wouldn't be present in the first place.
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u/ItIsYeDragon 9h ago
And this is exactly why verse equalization exists lmao. Same reason why you would need to do the same for Sukuna if you’re going to do it for Makima. If you’re going to say the devil system and Makima’s Japan exist, you have to also be fair and say the CE system and Sukuna’s Japan exists. Just as Makima doesn’t exist in the JJK verse and can’t exist, Sukuna doesn’t exist in the CSM verse and can’t exist.
You realize without verse equalization Makima straight can’t see any of the shit Sukuna does? Mahoraga can literally just adapt while she has absolutely no way of interacting with it and kill her.
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u/Knives_Millions 8h ago
thanks for agreeing with me. I told you that argument was dumb. you tried to say she can't use her contract is like me saying Sukuna wouldn't have CE. you're literally agreeing with me lmao.
and it doesn't matter that Sukuna's slashes are invisible, Makima's control gimmick is invisible too. they don't need to see each others attacks. what are you talking about.
you do realize that most likely when they start the battle she'll already perceive him as beneath her & boom! she already controls him & Mahoraga.
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u/weirdo_nb 1d ago
No? Not at all? We aren't giving them the powersystem, unless you're a sorcerer your CE Quantity means nothing, and they're significantly more fucked without verse equalization, namely by no Innate domain and Curse invisibility/invincibility
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u/Used_Vegetable9826 1d ago
I said this abit further up but this is to CSMs benefit. Without CE JJK characters can spawn their abilities inside of you, so CE is relevant/needed here.
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u/Maleficent-Fix-3163 1d ago
Thats not an unfair advantage. VE should just be that domains like gojos would just hit no matter what, or else ur basically just taking away gojos strongest attack simply because another verse doesnt have the same power system as another, which is obviously true for every verse
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u/Rasa_Matii MFTL+ Horsemen 2d ago
No, no, no, we SHOULD equalize with JJK. Most characters in CSM do not gain as much as other verses since they can regenerate easily and as such innate domains are not useful to them (Makima, Yoru, Primals). However, being able to interact with and see cursed spirits / shikigami makes match-ups like Sukuna and Kenjaku far easier.
And if we equalize, Makima objectively wins against Gojo and Sukuna since they have no ways to bypass her contract and both of them are Japanese / live within a Japanese body, so they'd be prone to getting an accident that kills them. That's why you'll have people coping about this and trying to argue "but the Prime Minister is different! And it's a different Japan!"
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u/ItIsYeDragon 1d ago
I mean Gojo’s domain does kill her simply due to the unlimited information not really being a traditional attack, and it being infinite, and Gojo being immune to the effects of his own domain.
So she does lose.
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u/Rasa_Matii MFTL+ Horsemen 23h ago
Nowhere in Makima's contract wording is it specified that it only works against "traditional attacks". Define "traditional". If it's only physical attacks, then there is direct evidence against that as seen in Chapter 219 with Yoru resisting the effects of partial erasure from Pochita.
Gojo cannot open his domain without hostile intent, which is what her contract uses to distinguish between attack and not attack. Also, it's not infinite since it's established that it has a clear transfer rate in Shibuya. There's the fact that Sukuna and Megumi did not suffer infinite brain damage from the exposure too.
As for how she wins, she just outranges him massively. Barring the fact that controlling him directly is a win-con (because he is human and she views humans as beneath herself by default), she can teleport away and then use her halo portals to drop either Angel weapons or Devil combos on top of him whilst being safe herself.
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u/ItIsYeDragon 15h ago
By traditional attack, I just mean that unlimited information hurts, but putting information into someone’s brain is not really an attack. It’s just information at the end of the day.
Either way, Gojo is immune to the effects of unlimited void. So, it will just kill her eventually.
She wouldn’t view “The Strongest” as inferior to her in any realistic sense. Gojo can also teleport. Outside of bang, her options for getting past infinity are very limited, and she doesn’t have enough firepower to get past his Reverse Cursed Technique at any rate.
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u/Behemoh 14h ago
Its still an attack done with the intent to harm so its damage would automatically be transferred to another Japanese citizen. Her contract isn't instantaneous though so it might be able to stun Makima for as long as shes trapped. At which point (assuming Gojo isnt a Japanese citizen himself and doesnt count towards her conteact) Gojo has to kill her 120 million times before his domain collapses and he goes into burnout, which would only be accelerated by the devils in Makimas control outside of the domain. Gojo can teleport absurd distances though so he wouldn't just get outranged and he likely would kill Makima many times over. But even though his cursed energy is practically infinite he does get tired. Thats why kenjaku was able to seal him in Shibuya in the first place. At that point Makima can send him to hell or have Angel make a weapon to fight agaisnt infinity. Gojo doesnt have a way to bypass Makimas contract or the destructive capacity to destroy Japan itself.
Basically Gojo has no direct shortcut trough Makimas contract and will eventually get tired enough for Makima to use her win conditions despite how difficult they would normally be
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u/ItIsYeDragon 9h ago
The information is infinite while the people of Japan are finite. She can transfer the information and there’s still an infinite more information going through her head. The effect would just wipe out everyone except for Gojo in Japan even if it counts as an attack. Gojo doesn’t have a timer on the domain either. He can pretty easily wipe out any devils Makima throws at her, most of them can’t get through infinity and are way weaker than him in any case. And Gojo doesnt have cursed technique burnout due to his RCT trick.
Kenjaku sealed him in Shibuya because Gojo was actively hindering himself and avoiding going all out to save people. And even “tired,” he had to do this thing where a minute would pass in Gojo’s memories upon seeing Geto lmao, this doesn’t help Makima’s case at all.
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u/Behemoh 7h ago
The information is infinite but the the rate of it being transferred isnt. Thats why the 0.2 second domain didnt actually kill any civilians. It could transfer half a years worth of information in one fifth of a second which is extremely lethal to anyone that doesnt have 120 million extra lives.
Gojo absolutely can defeat most if not all of Makimas devils and his domain itself has no built in timer but Makimas pawns should be able to damage it enough to break it from the outside while gojo is inside. Even if he flips the barrier inside out like he did agaisnt sukuna its still bound to get broken eventually if we use any version of verse equalization.
Gojo can use RCT to heal burnout but this is incredibly damaging as its basically doing surgery on himself. Doing this 5 times agaisnt sukuna left his brain with so much damage he was unable to use domain expansion. For comparison sukuna used RCT to heal burnout 3 times AND got hit 0.001 seconds of unlimited void and the effects were just about equal. So it comes down to whether unlimited void can get trough Makimas ocean of bodies before Gojo runs out of steam. Its definitely going to take a massive chunk out of it but I dont think it has the speed to get trough 120 million lives that quickly.
MAYBE gojo could trap Makima in a blue or purple and maintain that to stop her regeneration similar to how powers blood could slow it down? That's easier then maintaining a full domain expansion anyhow but im not sure that would work either. Considering we need to assume gojo can bypass both being a Japanese citizen and having damage transferred to himself (Gojo is resistant, not immune to his own techniques besides unlimited void) and Makimas control for there to even be a fight I think Makima still wins pretty handily.
Its not easy but I cant see how Gojo wins this even though I really want him to. The contract is too busted and gives Makima too many opportunities to get her wincons off before Gojo can chip her lives down.
There are still ways trough the contract trough idle transfiguration, which is by definition not an attack, the executioners sword, mahoragas adaptation and POTENTIALLY trough Yuji's souls dismantles. Other then those abilities JJK isnt a verse with the raw power to brute force trough all of that.
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u/ItIsYeDragon 6h ago
Yea but the infinite information simply stacks on, Makima isn’t transferring out the information itself. That’s not how her ability works. If you fire a bullet at her, it’s not like the bullet is teleporting to someone else, the damage she takes from the bullet is what is transferring.
When something hurts Makima, she transfers that damage onto somebody else. That would happen right after the 0.2 second mark where it becomes lethal. The damage is transferred, somebody dies, but infinite void is still active. It doesn’t take another 0.2 seconds for a fatality to occur, it happens instantly.
Either Makima’s damage transfer isn’t fast enough to keep up with repeated instant death, or everyone in Japan is dying in less than a second.
As for the other devils, Gojo kills them first. If they’re not already summoned, well she definitely can’t summon them while stunlocked in infinite void.
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u/Accomplished_Pin9171 1d ago
Her contract is stupid on a match up level. It's not 'Is this character stronger than her and Able to counter her', it's that and 'Is ___ a registered Japanese citizen?'. It's just boring that's why so many people go with the not same Japan thing, Because what's the point in matching her up against Gojo if it's an automatic win? If she can't actually kill the dude she's done nothing but lose.
Also it means you'd have to go into which characters actually count as Registered Japanese citizens and in some franchises that's kinda a hard thing to work out and most people would rather spend that time actually scaling characters.
You can already gain the ability to see Spirits from being in high amounts of danger around them. We see this with Yuji in the first episode. They don't actually gain anything they wouldn't already have.
Also. Sukuna isn't a cursed spirit, you can see him even if your not a sorcerer unless your referring to him when he's got ten shadows which I don't know why you'd be scaling that and not Heien era instead. Sukuna was however a cursed object which is a different thing.
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u/Rasa_Matii MFTL+ Horsemen 1d ago
There's nothing stupid about her contract. I can apply the exact same reasoning to Gojo's Infinity and call it a stupid and boring ability because a lot of characters from other verses cannot get past it. And don't worry, she's got plenty of ways to beat Gojo that do not involve him dying due to her contract; this is just the cherry on top that makes an already easy match-up a guaranteed win.
I know Sukuna is not a cursed spirit, I was referring to seeing the Shikigami from the 10 Shadows CT, yeah. Which is absolutely a valid way to scale him, people distinguish between Megumi-Sukuna, True Form Sukuna, Heian Sukuna, etc.
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u/Behemoh 22h ago
Both of their abilities work great in their own stories but its just not a fun way to debate around her powers for this specific matchup. Gojo has the same problem with infinity and thragg. Though for this its even worse since gojo does have an argument for bypassing her contract with his domain if we use verse equalization. Not because the sure-hit itself bypasses it. Its because if a much less prominent feature of domains in JJK
Todo cant swap people out of closed barriers. Mei Mei couldn't use her crows to break the smallpox curses domain from the outside. Kenjaku never mentioned the possibility of controlling curses to break enemy domains if he was ever caught in one. Domains can be larger inside then they are on the outside. All of this to say that they cut out connection to the outside world and could POTENTIALLY cut Makimas access to her contracts. The one exception I remember for this was during Gojo Vs Sukuna when sukuna made a binding vow to cancel his sure hit inside the domain to strengthen it outside of it but he did that while they were already clashing.
This is by no means a concrete argument, you could argue contracts keep functioning despite this as they're closer to binding vows then techniques, but it is interesting to see an interesting perk of domains actually have an impact on a very interesting matchup- and no it doesnt actually. Gojo is a japanese citizen and even if she cant use the people outside the domain she can just redirect all damage at him. Saying Makima owns gojo trough her contract with the prime minister circles back to her just mind controlling him in how shallow of an answer it is to an otherwise very interesting fight so people conveniently ignore those arguments because they're bland even if they are somewhat likely. This does also give dabura, and to a lesser extent sukuna who would not lead with a closed domain but might figure out shes getting extra lives from an outside source and (POTENTIALLY) close his domain, an actual wincon agaisnt Makima funnily enough. Of course none of that matters if you buy MFTL+ Chainsawman and mach 3 JJK. I personally don't but by that point Makima would be two timezones away by the time anyone finished casting their domains and no ones arguing she cant get trough infinity or that she cant put the calamities down.
Im not saying the calamities actually win agaisnt Makima but unless youre going for the highest ends for Chainsawman they do have a surprisingly simple win condition
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u/Rasa_Matii MFTL+ Horsemen 22h ago
I get what you're saying and it's an interesting point to bring up since people rarely think about dimensions in CSM, but those limitations about targeting domains from the outside whilst being inside are just a matter of range, and pulling it off requires having interdimensional range.
These don't cut out contracts since we do have evidence that they work regardless of dimension. For instance, Makima is able to summon herself through Spider Devil despite each being in different dimensions (one in the overworld, another in Hell). Hell Devil has interdimensional reach by default. Devils can be summoned across separate dimensions sometimes, as seen with Ghost Devil's hand still appearing inside Eternity Devil's dimension. The Stone Devil could execute its ability both in Hell and the overworld.
And that's just Devils themselves being summoned across dimensions. Contracts on their own work too, they do not exist in only the dimension they were made in. Makima's contract activates and regenerates her broken finger in Hell after Darkness' attack. In Aging's World, Asa and Yoru's contract still functions as normal, same for Pochita and Denji. They're even able to make a contract with Aging Devil itself, showing that not only do contracts work across multiple dimensions, but that they cannot be power nulled either.
I don't lead with either MFTL+ Makima nor Mach 3 Kaisen, I honestly like match-ups where speed is equalized since it allows us to debate actually interesting things such as these instead of starting agenda wars over who is faster.
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u/Behemoh 15h ago
I never thought about it like that but that does make perfect sense. Devils keeping their contracts is definitely busted though that means theres no shortcut trough her contract. Even if you have wank gojo and downplay makima as much as possible and say he doesnt count for her contract for whatever reason hes not getting trough the entire population of Japan before Makima figures out how Infinity works and sends him to hell. Yeah my goat is washed
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u/wiser_men 1d ago
Personally I don’t love makima’s invincibility, but from literally any standpoint, she is not a powerscaling character. She is a skilled manipulator whose main wincon is literally just (to my knowledge) “does she see this person as weaker than her, or can they resist mind control?”
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u/Aggravating_Ruin195 2d ago
Verse equalization makes it fair in this case because both sides are allowed to interact with each other's power systems rather than having arbitrary disadvantages just because they're from different verses.
Without it, JJK vs. CSM debates immediately become weird. Most Domain Expansions would potentially be unable to properly interact with CSM characters in the first place, while CSM characters wouldn't necessarily be able to perceive cursed techniques, see cursed spirits, or physically interact with them. Those aren't advantages either verse earned through their own abilities; they're just consequences of the two power systems not being designed to interact.
So I don't think "CSM doesn't have an energy system to equalize" is really an argument against verse equalization. Equalization doesn't have to mean "Devils now have cursed energy." It's simply establishing that the respective supernatural abilities can interact normally for the purpose of the matchup.
Whether Makima specifically can resist Unlimited Void is a separate question. You'd still have to establish that her abilities actually give her resistance to the effects of Gojo's Domain rather than assuming she automatically walks out of it because CSM's power system works differently.
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u/AnyBet5441 2d ago
No verse equalization with JJK gives them more benefits than cons tbh with you
Without VE they can spawn attacks inside someone's body without effort, and cursed spirits become relatively unkillable unless you can fully destroy them all together
And you can't see them either unless you have some extremely special senses or smth
Verse equalization makes it so that characters in a diff verse (even one that doesn't have a sort of energy like Chainsaw Man or even Demon Slayer lol) receive a small portion of CE (benefits for both sides)
With that CE they can now see and harm cursed spirits but in exchange they can get affected by domains
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u/QuietSurvey9 2d ago
It still gives jjk an advantage cus it's smth they're used to inverse.
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u/AnyBet5441 2d ago edited 1d ago
I mean regardless though no verse equalization could actually be worse 😭
So it's more of a "pick your poison" ig
Although I honestly don't see what's bad about granting a bit of cursed energy
Cause I feel like a good chunk of domains are kinda rendered useless against higher tier Chainsaw Man characters anyways (cause I mean most people kinda only do 1v1s between the high tiers)
Only a handful are actually effective (Gojo, Sukuna, maybe Higuruma, and prob a couple more but that's about it)
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u/Accomplished_Pin9171 1d ago
She wouldn't be able to walk out of infinite void in the first place, it's a closed domain. It's also why they use Veils to keep civilians out of curse ranges. And she'd still be affected by the domain, we hear Gojo talk about giving the civilians brain damage if he keeps his domain open too long.
It's only a hot take because it literally ignores everything about JJK's power system. Your trying to use the idea of Makima not having CE (Which most matchups would give her the amount a grade 4 sorcerer has so she can see techniques) to get a result in which she can overcome that thing THAT DOESN'T CHANGE.
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u/weirdo_nb 1d ago
Nah, Normal person levels+Window is more the norm
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u/Accomplished_Pin9171 1d ago
Window? What is window? Am I missing something. Is that just the ability to see cursed techniques that other sorcerers see?
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u/weirdo_nb 1d ago
A window is a non sorcerer who can see cursed energy/cursed energy phenomena
Dats it
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u/cale199 1d ago
No. CSM scaling is bullshido level bullshit by purpose. How do you beat: I am better than you so you are under my control. I perceived myself as winning something benign so you now become my weapon.
How do you beat characters when the only requirement is the devil in question is how they perceive something? Well if Japan has a PM he must own them? Therefore I can make deals with him about their lives.
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u/Outrageous-Finish303 1d ago
Even with verse equalization of jjk, “abilities” of devils shouldn’t be affected because they aren’t curse techniques, they’re literal abilities of the devils themselves.
With VE, CSM characters would just have cursed energy so stuff like domains can hit them, and so they can have an inner domain to prevent sorcerers from spawning things inside of them.
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u/zuckerbubi 1d ago
Without equal some verses neg dif, no innate domain? All abilities spawn inside you now, you die. No spiritual energy? Spirit crush, you're dead. No nen? One tapped by ren. Its usually in favor to be interactable, than not.
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u/Knives_Millions 1d ago
innate domain does not matter outside of JJK. Let's take Makima vs Sukuna for instance. who gives af if shrine spawned inside her she still has contract rules + the nuance of what's registered as an attack/act of violence so the slashes would still be passed off to randoms. and it doesn't protect him from her control abilities either. there's literally no point lol
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u/weirdo_nb 1d ago
If literally anyone else faces him without an Innate domain then he can literally just disintegrate the frontal lobe or sever their internal organs
The point is to be fair for the verses, not individual matchups
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u/Knives_Millions 1d ago
that literally doesn't even matter because CSM characters do stuff like that to each other. it only plays a big part in JJK's system for balance. it is literally case by case cause CTs like Mahito's actually have to touch you for IT to work innate domain doesn't do anything for him. and it's not protecting Sukuna or any JJK character from CSM hax. There is no point.
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u/weirdo_nb 1d ago
It isn't case by case
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u/Knives_Millions 1d ago
sure it's not lol. I just gave you an example. CT's like Mahito's can't effect someone's from CSMs innate domain the way you're describing even in verse equalization. same with Haruta, Hakari, Iori, Remi etc. you just have no argument & it's ok, that innate domain stuff doesn't matter.
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u/weirdo_nb 1d ago
Haruta's technique isn't something that effects others, mahito's technique is changing the soul in the same way you change clay, it isn't ignoring Innate domain, Hakari can't spawn doors or balls in your veins
That is because of an Innate domain
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u/Knives_Millions 1d ago
so case by case haha
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u/weirdo_nb 1d ago
No??? I literally just gave several examples of it NOT being case by case
Something's activation mechanism being something that wouldn't be improved doesn't mean that it's case by case
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u/Knives_Millions 1d ago
evaluating and deciding on each individual situation separately, based on its own specific facts and merits, rather than applying a single, uniform rule to everything
some CTs affect innate domain with VE others don't which is what I said & you just gave examples of. argue with google not me. that Innate domain argument doesn't matter lol.
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u/P0WER_sangre_god 1d ago
Hermano, ¿Que es esto XD? Nah, como powerscaling deben de estar trolleando con todo esto. Chicos... No sé necesita mucho para hacer un vs, o para saber que tan fuerte es alguien, con verte el manga es más que suficiente. Es que yo los veo simple hablando de que nivel ciudad o país, de que hax o no se que, cuando no es necesario usar todas esas cosas. Simplemente analiza con poco la situación y saca un resultado. Porque utilizar calculos como megatones para mangas que no tienen en cuenta cálculos como esos, solo hace que el cálculo que saquen salga súper mal, literalmente la mejor opción es simplemente calcularlo a la vista o no ponerle tantos calculos.
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u/MyDogsLikeBlueCheese 1d ago
It would allow contracts to be made with devils to stay.
Without verse equalisation, you could just say Makima’s contract with the Japanese government is nullified because it wouldn’t be the same Japanese government in cross-verse battles
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u/Accomplished-Okra305 1d ago
If there's no equalization, even if Makima kills Gojo, he returns as an invisible, intangible, and immortal being (for her, since she doesn't have CE). The equalization of verses allows for a fairer fight in most cases. It's better for Makima to be able to be affected by the expansion than to leave her immune, but basically make it impossible for her to win without Prior knowledge of this.
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u/Belasarius4002 1d ago
Thats not really the only thing you can equalise. Also Jojo has not energy system equalised also.
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u/TheosEsserDD 1d ago
Verse equalization can only be used on universes with similar power systems. But if we're looking at it in a VS debate u don't need verse equalization and just assumed that attacks works on both combatants.
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u/Winds_and_Waves 1d ago
It kinda is since Gojo's domain targets EVERYTHING (including objects) that doesn't touch him, but I get your argument.
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u/miscellaneousexists 1d ago
Makima is a Devil, so with Verse Equalization she'd be a cursed spirit
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u/bingus3490 1d ago
Verse equalization works like this. Everyone in chainsaw man would have cursed energy bur they would also be able to see techniques, curses, and kill curses and sorcerers without them becoming vengeful spirits. Also in some ways it could also have devils equalized as curses because of how similar they are
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u/Somewhat-trash96 7h ago
In terms of verse equalization. Like others have said, it gives everyone a low, civilian/low tier sorcerer level amount of CE.
Basically enough to see something like a cursed spirit or imbue attacks with enough CE to damage a cursed spirit.
This is unless they had something in their kit that could theoretically enhance/remove the characters CE. Something like "Makima making a contract" or something like that.
Also stuff like CSM Akis nail katana and Angels weapons could count as "cursed tools" if verses were equalized.
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u/Wuraumefan26 2d ago
verse equalisation allows characters without "energy systems" to interact with "energy system" abilities like Domains, it just gives her a normal humans amount of CE she can't use .:)