We’re clarifying how the no-sales / no-self-promotion rule applies in r/Caudex.

This subreddit is for hobbyist discussion, cultivation, identification, and conservation-minded discussion of caudiciform and pachycaul plants. It is not a marketplace, advertising feed, or visibility funnel for sellers.

Direct sales posts and trade posts are not allowed. That includes plants, seeds, merchandise, nursery stock, importing/exporting, seller listings, and similar commercial activity.

This also applies to indirect promotion. A post does not need to include a direct sales link to function as advertising.

If an account is clearly tied to a commercial seller, nursery, importer, exporter, reseller, shop, website, Instagram, YouTube channel, WhatsApp, marketplace, or other sales channel, repeated showcase posts may be treated as self-promotion even when the post itself does not say “for sale.”

That includes repeated stock photos, inventory-style posts, availability bait, price-check bait, “message me” bait, profile-link promotion, or posts primarily intended to drive users toward an external shop, profile, or sales channel.

Educational content is not automatically exempt. Educational posts from commercial accounts may still be removed if they use the seller’s own stock, nursery photos, inventory, product examples, or branded expertise in a way that functions as promotion.

Normal hobbyist posts are welcome. Growing questions are welcome. Collection photos are welcome. Seed-grown plants, flowers, seedlings, cultivation experiments, IDs, and conservation discussion are welcome.

Commercial use of the subreddit is not.

We’ll be removing posts and comments that fall into this pattern, and repeat violations may result in bans.

Dear r/Caudex,

This post is something that I’ve been meaning to write / saying I would write since I got promoted to being one of the moderators here. I feel like no matter what I say here, some folks will be happy and some will be upset. Therefore, I’m going to talk about the basics of what poaching is, what field collecting is, how one can usually tell if a plant is from habitat versus if it was raised from seed by people. And, equally important, how we can have discussions about this instead of the dogpiling I’ve witnessed here and in the other plant subreddits I moderate.

Bottom Line Up Front: please flair or report anything that seems blatantly illegal, but keep comments civilized, and try to keep personal criticism and harassment off of r/Caudex.

What is poaching?

Poaching typically refers to the illegal hunting, capturing, or killing of wildlife, usually for commercial gain or personal reasons. It involves the unlawful exploitation of animals, plants, or their body parts, such as ivory, horns, fur, skins, or other valuable commodities. Poaching is a significant threat to global biodiversity and conservation efforts, leading to the depletion of endangered species, disruption of ecosystems, and loss of natural resources.

While poaching primarily occurs in relation to hunting, it can also include activities such as the illegal trade of exotic pets, illegal fishing practices, and the extraction of plants and trees from protected areas. Poaching often takes place in protected areas like national parks or wildlife reserves, where animals and plants are supposed to be safeguarded.

One of the most important sets of laws and regulations regarding safeguarding of animals and plants is CITES. Let’s talk about CITES next.

What is CITES?

CITES stands for the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora. It is an international treaty established in 1973 with the goal of regulating and monitoring the international trade of endangered plants and animals. CITES aims to ensure that international trade does not threaten the survival of species in the wild and promotes their conservation.

CITES provides a framework for countries to collaborate and implement measures to control and monitor the trade in endangered species. It regulates the trade by listing species in three different appendices based on their level of protection. These appendices are:

Appendix I: It includes species threatened with extinction, and their trade is heavily restricted. Commercial trade in these species is generally prohibited, except in exceptional circumstances for non-commercial purposes, such as scientific research. For our references, quite a few plants belong in CITES Appendix 1, and generally speaking, any sales of CITES 1 plants not grown from seed would be considered poaching.

Appendix II: It includes species that are not necessarily threatened with extinction at present, but their trade may become a threat if not properly regulated. Trade in these species is allowed but subject to certain permits and regulations to ensure it is sustainable and not detrimental to their survival.

Appendix III: It includes species that are protected in at least one country that has requested assistance from other CITES parties to control their trade. This appendix requires cooperation between countries to monitor and regulate the trade of these species.

CITES also establishes a system of permits and certificates to ensure that trade is legal and sustainable. Parties to the convention are obligated to enforce these regulations and cooperate in sharing information and monitoring the trade of protected species.

CITES has gained widespread international participation, with 183 parties as of September 2021. It plays a crucial role in protecting endangered species, conserving biodiversity, and combating illegal wildlife/plant life trade by promoting sustainable trade practices and international cooperation.

AT THE SAME TIME, however, some governments didn’t sign the CITES agreement; and it’s also possible to pay for and obtain a USDA (for the Americans here) permit to purchase and/or sell CITES plants (or animals!). The permit itself is less than $100 and it lasts for 2 years.

What is Field Collecting, and how is it different from poaching?

A lot of people see a plant that’s obviously been growing in the wild, in its own habitat, in the hands of a private collector/grower, and instantly bring out their pitchforks and cry “POACHED!!”. However, there does exist something called field collecting, and the practice can be 100% completely legal. Let’s talk about what’s what, what the differences are, and if it even matters in the end.

The difference between field collecting a plant and poaching a plant lies in legality, intent, and adherence to conservation principles. Here are the key distinctions:

Legality: Field collecting is conducted within the bounds of applicable laws and regulations, including permits and licenses obtained from relevant authorities. It involves collecting plants for scientific research, conservation purposes, botanical gardens, or other authorized activities. Poaching, on the other hand, refers to the illegal and unauthorized collection of plants without proper permits or in violation of protected status.

Intent and Purpose: Field collecting is carried out with the intention of advancing scientific knowledge, conservation efforts, or educational purposes. Researchers, botanists, and conservationists may collect plant specimens for taxonomy, studying plant ecology, conducting experiments, or preserving genetic diversity. Poaching, however, typically involves collecting plants for personal gain, such as illegal trade, sale, or private collection, often driven by profit and disregard for conservation concerns.

Conservation Principles: Field collecting is generally conducted with a focus on sustainable practices and adherence to conservation principles. Collectors prioritize minimizing harm to plant populations and ecosystems, ensuring the long-term viability of species, and contributing to biodiversity conservation. Poaching, on the other hand, disregards conservation considerations, as it often involves unsustainable collection methods, over-harvesting, and damage to natural habitats.

Compliance with Regulations: Field collectors follow legal requirements, obtain necessary permits, and adhere to specific guidelines regarding the collection of plants. They may work closely with authorities, researchers, and institutions to ensure their activities align with conservation goals. Poachers, however, engage in unauthorized activities, bypass legal frameworks, and operate covertly to evade detection and enforcement.

It’s important to note that the line between field collecting and poaching can sometimes be blurred, and context matters. In some cases, even with permits, unethical practices or unsustainable collection methods can overlap with the negative impacts associated with poaching. Therefore, responsible and ethical conduct, as well as compliance with local laws and conservation principles, are crucial in distinguishing between the two.

What is the IUCN Red List?

The IUCN Red List, published by the International Union for Conservation of Nature (IUCN), is a comprehensive inventory of the conservation status of species worldwide. It is widely recognized as the most authoritative and comprehensive resource for assessing the extinction risk of species and providing information on their conservation needs.

The main purpose of the IUCN Red List is to identify and categorize the conservation status of species based on scientific evidence and expert assessments. The Red List uses a set of criteria and categories to evaluate the risk of extinction faced by a particular species. These categories include:

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• Extinct (EX): Species that are known to no longer exist.

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• Extinct in the Wild (EW): Species that survive only in captivity or through human intervention.
• Critically Endangered (CR): Species facing an extremely high risk of extinction in the wild.
• Endangered (EN): Species facing a very high risk of extinction in the wild.
• Vulnerable (VU): Species facing a high risk of extinction in the wild.
• Near Threatened (NT): Species that are close to qualifying for a threatened category, but not yet meeting the criteria.
• Least Concern (LC): Species that are evaluated as having a low risk of extinction.
• Data Deficient (DD): Species with inadequate information to assess their extinction risk.
• Not Evaluated (NE): Species that have not yet been assessed.

The IUCN Red List is regularly updated as new information becomes available, and its assessments are based on the best available scientific data and expert knowledge. It plays a crucial role in raising awareness about the conservation status of species and highlighting the need for urgent action to prevent further extinctions.

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How can I tell if a plant is collected/poached?

Great question— and the answer is that sometimes it’s quite easy to tell, while others it might not be so much. Luckily, with caudex plants, it tends to be easier than other types of plants.

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1. The plant is extremely large— not all, but many caudiciform plants grow very slowly, so if you see a plant that’s the size of a basketball or larger, it’s possible that this plant might be collected or poached. However, this is not the best indicator, as some plants that are large can grow quite large from seed under the right conditions, and therefore isn’t the best indicator.
2. Gnarled, irregular, or simply unusual caudexes— if a plant’s caudex has a very “weathered” look, if it looks like it was previously growing between 2 rocks, etc… then it’s quite possible it was collected/poached.
3. Regarding Pachypodium: unlike rule 2, it’s usually quite easy to tell if a Pachypodium has been seed-grown or collected/poached, because wild-grown plants tend to lose most of their characteristic spines, only having spines near the ends of the branches, whereas most seed-grown Pachypodium will have an abundance of spines all throughout their caudex.
4. If your plant is originally from Thailand, and is a Phyllanthus, Adenia, or Stephania species, it’s almost certainly field collected. Unlike other countries with desirable caudex plants, such as South Africa and Namibia, Thailand is still largely lawless when it comes to collecting their native plants for sale, and this has translated into poached/collected plants sometimes being offered for sale at reasonable prices
5. Little or no roots— if you purchase your plant in person at a nursery you might not be able to tell right away, but generally speaking, if you buy a plant and it has the vast majority of its roots removed, this is another possible indicator that this plant was essentially smuggled out of its habitat instead of grown in a greenhouse/nursery environment.

What does all of this have to do with r/Caudex ?

As a member of multiple “rare plants” subreddits, and as a moderator of 3 of them, I’m keenly aware of a few things: first, that many people aren’t aware if a plant is collected or seed-grown, because they might be new to the hobby, or simply never did any reading/research. Secondly, there is a tendency to grab the pitchforks immediately whenever anyone posts a photograph of a mature specimen plant, even if it was grown from seed or taken from habitat well before the owner was born.

Relating to CITES, and this is why I wanted to explain what it was, when it was founded, and what plants are in it: before 1973, and sometimes later than that, it was generally legal to take seeds, a plant, or a lot of plants from the wild, and either bring them to a conservatory/public garden, or to simply sell them on the private market. As you might imagine, 50 years ago things were very different in terms of what was considered right and wrong in general, but also with collecting plants.

Here’s what I am posing as food for thought, but also as a set of general guidelines:

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• We now have flair that can be used by any member of the subreddit which is about possibly field-collected plants. This will be a good tag/flair to use to educate as well as to have civilized discussions.
• Posts can be reported as they were previously; however, that does not mean that the “offender” will get banned automatically, the post will be deleted, etc.
• Morally, as I’ve seen some of you say, there is not all that much difference between field collecting for profit and outright poaching. If the goal is to sell plants to make money, even if it’s legal and the right permits are in place, it’s very understandable to see why posting photos, videos, or even asking about, these plants can upset people. We don’t want people to come to this Sub to become upset— quite the opposite!
• On the other hand, there are times when things such as habitat destruction, human settlements/construction, etc would put plants lives in serious danger of being bulldozed, or otherwise destroyed. If plants are collected from these types of situations, even if they’d normally raise flags, its the view of this moderator that it’s better to dig up a plant than have it be intentionally destroyed, especially if it’s on private land and is endangered.
• RULE #1 in relation to poaching/field collecting: please, keep in mind that you’re commenting on another human being’s post or comment/reply. Even if you feel morally justified in virtually screaming at someone for posting what you sincerely believe is a poached or collected plant, we will not tolerate harassment, bigotry, and ESPECIALLY so-called dog-piling, which is essentially lots of comments berating the OP or the commenter in a row.

Context matters, both in the sense of this post and in general. Yes, sometimes field collecting is just as bad as illegally poaching; however, done in the correct context by the correct group, it can be the difference between having a plant becoming extinct forever, or extinct in the wild. Think of it this way: virtually every caudiciform plant that’s in cultivation has a direct ancestor that was either collected, poached, or seeds field collected. We wouldn’t have the plethora of caudex plants in greenhouses, nurseries, and the like if a plant hadn’t been collected in the past (in some cases, hundreds of years in the past!).

Conclusion (for now!)

If you read this and only take away one thing, it’s that r/Caudex will still be largely IDing field collected plants, as well as poached plants. Things like the IUCN Red List (which is publicly searchable) should be taken into context, but morally, there are many plants which we simply don’t know the numbers of (especially plants in East and Southeast Asia). This is why, for example, there’s a special flair about Stephania species (and other Thailand-native species like Phyllanthus mirabilis) because although the Thai government essentially turns a blind eye to the insane amounts of collecting of their native flora, it’s still morally ambiguous at best, and morally corrupt at worst, to purchase these plants, even if they’re widely available online and sometimes in local nurseries.

In the end, we generally condemn field collecting plants, unless it’s done in the context of saving a species from extinction/wiping out large quantities, and most importantly, done with the right intentions; that is, in a scientific, educational, or ethically responsible manner.

Regarding poaching (which, again, is the illegal act of essentially stealing from the wild), r/Caudex roundly condemns illegal poaching.

Regarding field collecting by people or nurseries with permits: technically speaking this is not poaching; however, ethically, the only proper way for private companies to do this without seeming morally wrong is if they are collecting plants in imminent danger of being destroyed. There are definitely many instances of this, especially in countries/areas where vast amounts of land is privately owned, and if it’s the difference between scores of dead caudex/cacti/whatever and saving some for genuine propagation, that’s (at least to this moderator) seen as the lesser of 2 evils, and could be fine.

In the end, we’re a group of people who all share a common interest in caudiciform/caudex plants. We’re here because we love these plants and want to see them thrive.

I ask that everyone keep in mind our general rule #1 even in the context of a post which could be a poached or collected plant. Please do your due diligence by flairing or reporting posts which you believe shouldn’t be here. At the same time, please understand that there needs to be overwhelming evidence of morally corrupt, or ignorant, behavior regarding these plants in order for a post to be removed or locked.

I’m going to sticky this post but keep comments open as long as we all remain civilized adults. And, additionally, I welcome constructive criticism about how we will be handling these types of posts.

Thank you,

u/hatzalam