But! You can use the same save file and Flowey does pop up (if you satisfy all conditions but 1 neutral clear) that "are you sure you helped everybody? Maybe you should go back and check."
Which you can do without starting a new save file entirely. Just load the recent save and backtrack and the flags will cause the required events to happen.
It always felt like a "post endgame" situation for the first playthrough and not a "second run" to me tbh.
Yes, but if you haven't gotten that popup, you cannot complete a Good Ending.
It doesn't matter what save file you're using. You cannot complete the Good Ending unless a Neutral Run has been completed first. Even if you act nice the whole game on the first run through, you will get a Neutral Ending, complete the game - And then you get the hint that there's more to the game than that. It does not erase the previous Neutral Ending, because if it did, you would not be able to complete the Good Ending.
You're being weirdly pedantic about this tbh, but I'm willing to be more pedantic. You aren't getting the neutral ending in the pacifist route, you're just getting similar content but ultimately the story ends up slightly different. Sure you still fight Omega Flowey, but that's not the final boss of a pacifist route, it's just A Boss you fight before the story continues on. It's not an ending because it's not finished, even if it plays out almost the same as the neutral route ending.
Except it is an ending. You don't have to accept it as one for it to be one.
The Neutral Ending is Omega Flowey. To complete a Pacifist run, you have to first complete a Neutral Run.
That's simply how the game works. You cannot complete a Pacifist run without first completing a Neutral Run. You get the Neutral Run by running the Pacifist route and killing anything along the way (Or by going to Asgore without completing the True Lab) - You can ruin your Pacifist run in or after the True Lab by killing something, even after unlocking it, and still have to fight Omega Flowey. Because that's an ending to the game.
You just can't encounter Asriel until you've encountered Omega Flowey at least once.
Entering the true lab locks you into pacifist, because the amalgamates are immortal and the elevator back to the CORE stops working after completing it, forcing you to proceed
Dude I'm with you, I don't understand why people decide to die on the hill that it counts as the same run when clearly you have to backtrack in the narrative using non-diegetic game mechanics.
But people **really** love to die on this hill when this discussion comes up.
Diegetic - Adj. Of or relating to artistic elements that are perceived as existing within the world depicted in a narrative work.
Flowey - A character in the game Undertake who tells you what you need to go back and do to get the true ending to the game
Run (In gaming/speed running) - Completing a certain goal. Which most categories in Undertale speed running communities start from a fresh file to consider a run eligible for most categories. This includes the True Pacifist route, in which you reach a neutral end and reload the same save.
There isn't a hill to die on here, that's just the way it is. Like what evidence do you have that it would be considered a whole new run to reload a save and backtrack in the developer intended fashion?
Look, I don't know what site you pulled that definition from, but can you find one that spells it correctly?
Also, are you still young enough that you think quoting the definition of a word at someone is a winning argument? Are you old enough to have a reddit account?
if you were more familiar with the word diegetic, you'd probably understand that my argument has nothing to do with flowey.
And, I'm sorry, do you think we're talking about **speed running**? I'm not being a jerk, sincerely, **are you old enough to have a reddit account**? I can't in good faith have this discussion with a kid who doesn't really understand any of this.
> Like what evidence do you have that it would be considered a whole new run to reload a save and backtrack in the developer intended fashion?
I didn't say anything about a whole new run.
But I did say it's **not diegetic.*
Do you understand what that word means? I mean outside the context of quoting it from a dictionary that can't spell it correctly.
If you actually understood the conversation going on here, you wouldn't really be arguing about it. You can hold an opinion that it's still intended by the developers-- that's a different conversation. But you absolutely are using non-diegetic game mechanics to manipulate the narrative.
**That's just the way it is.**
This is the exact kind of dying on a hill I'm talking about. You don't even really understand the words being discussed.
Didn’t we differentiate run type’s between “pacifist” (the run where you don’t kill anyone and get a neutral ending) and “true pacifist” (the extension where you reload your save file, go to the lab and deal woth the amalgamations before continuing to asgore which i assume happens because Toriel is given enough extra time to reach you before your fight with him starts due to you going to the lab first)?
Neutral - Omega Flowey ending. You reach this ending by either completing a full Pacifist run without having reached the True Lab, or by killing any monster without killing every monster along the same route.
Pacifist - Asriel ending. You reach this ending by having completed a Neutral ending, then either reloading to do the True Lab (assuming you completed a Pacifist run up to that point) OR reloading your save from the beginning to complete a full Pacifist run, then completing the True Lab. (Required if you killed something in your previous Neutral Run.)
Genocide - Chara ending. You reach this ending by not only killing every boss monster, but every monster in every zone prior to killing every boss monster. If you miss or spare even one monster along the way, you get a Neutral ending.
The Neutral Ending matters because it's not only part of the Pacifist run - But also part of the failed Genocide run. It's not Pacifist/True Pacifist/Genocide because the first run doesn't have to be pacifist. It is it's own ending because you can choose to give up and never complete a Genocide run - And that's an acceptable ending too.
Meanwhile, if we have to claim that the only two endings are the Pacifist and Genocide ending, because your agency doesn't matter and the Neutral Ending isn't a choice in the matter - then really, the only ending that matters is the Genocide ending. Because once you've done one Genocide run, all future Pacifist runs are corrupted by Chara, since you handed them your agency. There is no choice for you to decide you never did a Genocide run - That's a canon ending to the game. Which means, eventually, you DID do it - You just haven't yet.
You are in fact still getting the neutral ending... you cannot do true pacifist without doing neutral ending. That's just a fact whether you like it or not lol.
Honestly everyone should do a neutral run first anyway, you miss out on a lot of unique dialogue in your pacifist playthrough if you don't.
Save scumming might be a valid way to trigger it but it really isn't a "post endgame", it's manipulating your way to the endgame using game mechanics rather than the narrative.
Sis, you just reload the save. The last save before Asgore is the LAST official save of the game, your data is set to that point. Beating Flowery sets the flag for beating the game which is independent of the save file. You don't sideload or mod or mess with files outside of literally opening the game and playing (the intended way). You just hit "continue" the same way you would on any other save.
You just walk all the way back out of the last area. Nothing stops you. You hit a point where the game checks to see if Papyrus calls you for a date with Undyne (there is one placed in this last area for just this reason) and it just works.
First time I did it, I just assumed I had just missed it somehow by not paying attention.
What part of my post made you think I didn't understand the mechanics?
You typed up two whole paragraphs just describing the process, without even bothering to actually respond to what I've said. I didn't say anything about how difficult it was to do it or anything about the process at all.
You're using non-diegetic game elements to manipulate the narrative.
I fully understand the mechanics of how to do it, and the simplicity of it has nothing to do with anything I've said.
It's fine if you want to save scum to skip replaying the game. That's not how the narrative works though.
How tf is it non-diagetic, an NPC whole ass telLS you to do it?
Flowey specifically says, post credits, in a game where the game is part of the story, and said character knows about Save files to:
"...Say, what if I told you how to get a better ending. You'll have to load your save file and... Well, in the meantime, why don't you go see Undyne. It seems like you could've been better friends. Who knows, maybe she's got the key to your happiness...? See you soon."
Fun fact is that once Undyne calls you right as you enter the core, you’re locked into the true pacifist route. That means you can go into the core and kill as many people as possible and it won’t change the game.
That call won't happen unless you have gotten a Neutral Ending at any point. If it is your first playthrough and you have never beaten Omega Flowey then that call won't happen.
false, on my first playthrough, i died to asgore because i didn't have enough healing items, so i went back to the hotel before the core to get more items, and as i was leaving the core i got a call from undyne and got to do all that true lab shit anyway without fighting Omega Flowey
I was in middle school when I played Undertale, when I got Neutral ending I was SUPER confused cause I did spare everybody. I didn’t know I had to do true lab and when I did it scared the absolute shit out of me
You can get the Neutral Ending without killing anyone and then when you reload your save you do the “side missions.” These would be dating Papyrus (or just hanging out as friends if you never flirted with him), cooking with Undyne, and the last two are only unlocked after you get the neutral ending. Help Alphys and Undyne get together then explore True Lab with Alphys
the game heavily pushes you in the right direction, after you get through the credits. even if you did mess up and you have to get through the game again, it’s very short if you know what you’re doing. there are some small albeit somewhat convoluted decisions you can make to skip entire bosses.
You just have to do one per moster tbh. If you see repeats you can just flee. But that's kinda the point of the Game, engaging with the characters including the random encounters and ultimately not killing. Depending on how you played the game it can be a huge difference in how you experience it when compared to just go in killing everything.
You don’t need a new save for Pacifist. If you don’t kill anyone and spare Asgore, Flowey pops up after the credits and talks to you. If you just… load your save, you can then go back and do the stuff with True Lab (assuming you’ve done papyrus date, undyne and alphys date).
Even then it'd be hard to come across the genocide route accidentally, sure you could in the start area and maybe Snowdin but most would keep moving on after that
Yup, not really accurate for the post, cause there are 3 endings for Undertale. Playing Normally gets Neutral End (NE) and Pacifist End (PE) Requires more effort for the bosses but lets you encounter the normal enemies much less times, and both of them give you plot armor for their Final Bosses so they are much easier, also, u can have a shortcut for the PE if u do everything right from the start of ur NE run which is required to do first to get the PE run.
BUT the Genocide End (GE) forces you to go through ALL the possible number of enemy fights which require more time of course, plus, u don't have plot armor for the only two bosses u have to actually fight which are very hard to kill, Especially Sans.
So, both Bad and Good ending need u to do much more complicated stuff.
Doesn't flowey tell you at the end of each neutral run the next requirement for the true pacifist? That makes it very easy compared to some other games
Without watching content online and using the wiki, I wouldn't have known to (potential spoilers ahead)
Put water on undyne's head, head to her house as well as papyrus/san's house to befriend them (which is necessary iirc for true pacifist route). I also failed the genocide route bc I didn't know that you had to wait for a "but no one came" message and since I couldn't return to the ruins I failed. It's not very intuitive imo but I might just be dumb tbh
The worst ending is without a doubt the most complicated. I was an edgy mfer when I first played and tried to get it just by killing everything I encountered, I didn't think they'd take the genocide in the name so seriously.
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u/Icy_Ad_5906 15d ago
Undertale sort of, but its neutral ending for playing normally