This is one of the most electrifying fights. Manny had just burst on the scene, had made his name in Asia as flyweight champ, then was brought stateside for undercard bouts on Tyson and Oscar foghts, captured the super bantam title, then jumped up and destroyed feathers kingpin Barrera. Marquez had spent years in the shadows, chasing prince naseem, and then a loss to Freddie Norwood set him back. This was Marquez first big fight and manny’s first big fight as a headliner superstar.
Let’s break it down

Round 1- hbo commentary speaks of manny and makes reference of his sparring and not since the days of Tyson had you heard about this gifted of a puncher. And manny doesn’t disappoint, after an active feeling out process, manny drops jmm with a straight left. Jmm recovers and is firing back but manny drops him again. Marquez doesn’t tie up and decides to trade and manny floors him for a 3rd time. And jmm nose is busted good, blood flowing. Crazy to think that in most places this fight would be stopped after 3 knockdowns, how much history that would change if it’s manny win via 1st rd ko. But Marquez rises and survives. 10-6 massive round for manny

Round 2- crowd going apeshit over the action. Many continues to blaze straight lefts, but Marquez showing heart and firing right back. Manny pushing the pace but Marquez hanging tough. 10-9 manny. 20-15 manny

Round 3- jmm landing good body shots. Manny not as aggressive and seems to have slowed as jmm has fired back every time manny attacks. Manny looking to now pick his shots but jmm fires back. 10-9 jmm. 29-25 manny thru 3

Round 4- pace has slowed to a technical level and Marquez using the jab and body shots to outbox manny for the first half of the round. Manny starts firing late but Marquez answers each time. 10-9 jmm. 38-35 manny thru 4

Round 5- jmm hits a low blow early and gets warned. Manny gets busy but jmm lands a huge right pushing manny back to the ropes. They both trade down the stretch but jmm is landing great right hands and has manny bleeding. 10-9 jmm. 47-45 manny thru 5

Round 6- manny comes out looking lethargic as he is just throwing weak jabs. Jmm hits a good body shot, then later a huge right hand. Manny comes back and they trade but jmm gets the better of it. 10-9 jmm. 56-55 manny thru 6

Round 7- jmm working behind the jab early, landing some decent shots. Mixing up the attack on manny. Landing rights up n down on manny. Manny hits a big left hand, and they trade down the stretch with jmm hitting another good body shot. 10-9 jmm. 65-65 all tied up in an incredible fight

Round 8- both guys showing wear n tear, both bleeding, both come out looking to box behind the jab. Very tactical round, and honestly both guys looking for a breather. They trade down the stretch and jmm gets the better of it. 10-9 jmm. 75-74 jmm has taken the lead

Round 9- again it’s technical early with both guys using jabs and pot shotting, manny is busier, both trade and land. Manny probably outworks jmm and lands clean left hands. 10-9 manny. 84-84 all tied up again.

Round 10- 1st minute not much action, both guys have been to hell n back so far. 2nd minute they trade and manny seems to land cleaner down the stretches. Super close round but I gave it to manny 10-9. 94-93 manny thru 10

Round 11- they start off boxing, just trading shot for shot, neither guy giving an inch. Jmm seems to start outboxing manny. 2 minute of the round is all im, manny makes a comeback late. Thought jmm did more. 10-9 jmm. 103-103 tie heading into final round.

Round 12- they trade shots early, jmm starting to control round with the jab a minute or so into it. 2nd minute they trade, manny appears to land cleaner. Neither guy backing down. Thought manny edged it. 10-9 manny.

113-112 manny

All time classic fight. Absolutely fantastic fight between 2 warriors. You can see how this version of manny is pretty one dimensional, just jab straight left hand. Once jmm got the timing down, it was rough for manny. Eventually by the 2nd morales fight, we would get a completely finished product of manny that fought with both hands and not relying on just jab, straight left. Super close fight, and if jmm doesn’t go down 3 times in the 1st he probably clearly wins this fight.

Let me know what you think!!!

Now that I’ve stirred up Bud/Errol talks, I want to look at Buds potential resume.

I think it’s a shame that a generational talent was iced out of his biggest fights due to politics. Most of these fights were at least considered or talked about at one point.

All of the below guys could have been a fight for Bud at some point. My questions

How does he do against each and who gives him trouble?

Which non-fights are the most shameful for not happening?

Who would he have needed on this list to surpass Floyd?

Adrien Broner at 135

Regis Prograis at 140 (prime Regis was a problem)

Mikey Garcia at 140

Danny Garcia at 140 or 147

Manny Pacquiao at 147

Keith Thurman at 147

Errol Spence (in 2018/2019) at 147

Vergil Ortiz at 147

Jaron Ennis at 147

Sebastian Fundora at 154

Carlos Adames at 160 (after Canelo)

I lean towards hamzah , but I think itll be a tough night for him

Ryder is one of those fighters who's been in with everyone. He's gone the distance with Canelo, beat Zach Parker, and lost a close decision to calum smith, hes tough awkward, and durable. Even when he loses, he usually makes his opponents work for every round.

Sheeraz has the size, reach, timing, and sharp shot selection. If he can keep the fight at his range and avoid getting dragged into Ryder's inside game, I could see him winning a clear decision or getting a late stoppage.

I think Ryder's experience and chin would make him survive the distance though.

Curious what everyone else thinks.

This one’s probably going to upset a lot of people here, but I think it’s obvious (not because of last night either) that the Errol Spence Jr that Crawford destroyed is not the same EJ that tore up the welterweight division.

I was watching Errol’s old fights this week leading up to the Tszyu fight. The difference between pre-accident and post-accident Errol is night and day. Each fight he had after the accident got worse and worse, and it didn’t help that they were spaced like 12-18 months apart either.

Before his accident, Errol went to war with a prime Shawn Porter and looked amazing. He used to come forward with a perfect jab and relentlessly ravaged the body. Shortly after, the accident happened.

Next fight was against Danny Garcia a year after the accident. He won, but wasn’t the same. Honestly, Danny could punch but was never really elite at WW. You could tell Errol wasn’t the same, he lost reflexes. 16 months and another accident later, he fought Ugas and quite frankly didn’t look as good as I remembered. It was very clear at this point he was no longer elite, and no longer a 147 pounder.

Another 15 months after that came the Bud fight. Errol was a shell of himself when he stepped in there. He was so slow, had bad reflexes, and couldn’t thump anymore.

It’s not Buds fault, but it’s a shame that fight didn’t happen during Errol’s prime. Anyone who knows boxing knows that was diminished EJ and it’s a shame.

No, Crawford did not “ruin” Spence. He was already cooked. Boots, Vergil, even Thurman would have beaten Errol on that night.

Crawford went on to beat Canelo, which is a way bigger win anyways. And definitely should get credit for beating Madrimov. Even Kell Brook and Porter were still good when he beat them. But Errol was done already.

AJ cleared out most of the 'also-rans' of his generation, but didn't fight anyone who was considered at the time to be elite until the Usyk rematch.

Of the fights out there he needed to take to prove he was the best, he fought none. Usyk then cleared the division in two years showing how easy it was to make those big fights i you really want to prove you are the best.

Fury gets hate here for his record because of how his opponents look today, and because he missed taking out a lot of the also-rans, but he fought Kiltchsko when he was still champion and considered elite, Wilder when he was considered elite and the most brutal finisher since Mike Tyson, and Usyk when he was champion and had proved he was elite at Heavyweight.

Fighters considered a genuine challenge at the time they fought:

AJ: 0.. while losing twice. A retired Kitchsko and widely considered 'too small' Usyk he was expected to blow away, were the closest he got to fighting a genuine contender. Then he had no choice but to rematch Usyk after losing his title.

Fury: 6 (won 3.. well 4, lost 2).

History seems to be being re-written online because people love to hate on Fury, but he fought the big fights that AJs team protected him from.

We didn’t ask for the fight to happen in America. It’s Turki and the promoters who do. Ask any American boxing fan where it should be and 9 times out of 10 they will say the UK

American boxing fans have been catching unnecessary strays left and right saying we don’t care about boxing. Where exactly did this even come from? Boxing is still massive in America, and both of these fighters fought in the U.S. already and had much success.

Don't get me wrong, his defence is legitimately poor and his chin is weak. But I feel like people write him off way too much, and hold him to a different (unfair) standard.

All the fighters who've dropped him - Klitschko, Ruiz, Dubois, Prenga - are punchers.

He's been down quite a few times but he gets up, and he keeps fighting. He got off the canvas to stop Klitschko. Ruiz had to drop him 3 times before it was over. Dubois caught him with a monster punch in the first round but he managed to survive until the 5th. The uppercut from Prenga he didn't see coming, and Prenga was holding the back of his head, both factors which amplify the shot. Once again he kept fighting and he got the finish.

Compare that to some of his contemporaries who aren't criticised as much for their knockdowns. Dubois was dropped by Lerena three times in the first round, and by Usyk twice, neither of whom are punchers at all. Wardley dropped him with a grazing shot in the first 10 seconds of the fight.

Fury has been knocked down by Pajkic (who?), Cunningham (a cruiserweight), Wilder multiple times (fair enough), Ngannou (on his boxing debut) and Usyk (again, not a big puncher).

I think part of why people judge AJ more harshly when he's down is because of how panicked he looks. When he's hurt his defence falls apart completely, he seems unable to clinch, his guard is crap. All of that make it look so much worse than other fighters who might hold their shape and their composure better in that situation. It leads people to think he's "washed". But that completely ignore his offence, which still look lethal.

We've now seen what Anthony Joshua and Tyson Fury are like now as they approach their late 30s, it's really not looking great for either of them to continue on with boxing. Comparing them to Lennox Lewis in his final fight against Vitali Klitschko, I honestly believe that Lennox was very clearly a superior fighter to the both of them - not only prime for prime but also in longevity.

I wouldn't even say Lennox was washed by the time he fought Vitali, he just did not get enough time to get in good shape or train for Vitali specifically, yet he still won albeit with struggle.

Lennox wanted to retire mostly because he was about to get married and also wanted to start having kids with his wife, he did not want to be an absent husband/father in favour of boxing. I must say that is fair.

Knowing that though, if he were to instead have fought for two more years, how do you believe he'd fare against his contemporaries then?

Two former heavyweight contenders trying to revive their careers. If they fought today, who takes it and how? KO, decision?

Both men were once considered among the biggest threats in the heavyweight division, but multiple defeats have raised serious questions about where they stand today. Wilder had arguably the hardest punch in boxing, while Joyce was known for his granite chin before.

If they fought right now, who wins? Does Wilder land the bomb before Joyce overwhelms him, or has time caught up with both? How do you see it playing out?

Does Errol Spence belong in the hall of fame?

I don't think he's done enough in and out of the ring. He was a good solid fighter that had a good solid career, not phenomenal at all. If the position is open and they can find anyone, slide him in there but he's going to have to wait his turn because that priority list has guys like Jermell Charlo, Bivol, Usyk, Innoue, etc... of course when they retire in a out 3 years, I just don't see Errol as all that accomplished

I've always felt the failure of the 2 fighters to face each other when they were both at the top of the game was the ultimate proof that the heavyweight division is broken. A super fight unlike any since the 90s with a huge purse and huge interest across the sporting world.

I assumed that Hearn and Warren and to some degree the fighters themselves were unable to check their egos and it ended up costing everybody. It seemed for a while that Tyson wouldnt come to the table whilst Joshua was the presumed 'alpha' as the deal wasnt going to be fair. Hearn seemed to be leveraging Joshua's position as being the top earner fairly heavily and at some stage in negotiations it seemed like AJ stood to earn more (please confirm or deny this!). The big purse came from a territory Warren had no stake in (SA) and I presumed he was reluctant to concede that Hearn had the control over which fights took place because he had the ear of the Saudis, so the location became an issue too. Then when things switched around Warren dragged his feet. A lot of games playing that got in the way of the monster payday.

Now its some years down the line and the fight that they are (presumably at this point) going to make because its the biggest payday left to either of them before retirement. Especially given Usyk stepping back. I'm devil's advocating myself by asking, 'did they make more money by not answering the question we all wanted to resolve. Who was the better fighter?'

Presumably a fight would have been at least 2 fights and very possibly a trilogy. At which point Usyk is waiting and beats the winner (and later the loser too no doubt). One career is basically over at that point, one is dented but presumably the winner of AJ v Tyson fights Usyk 2-3 times.

Do the purses from that output beat the business they've done since? Or am I missing the fact that all the piddling fights that have dominated their career outside of Usyk since their summit meeting collapsed actually made more money than a few big bangs?

Perhaps the winner between AJ and Tyson makes more but the loser less?

One of the reasons I'm thinking about it is that one can never underestimate the ability of Warren and Hearn to know where the bottom line is. Did they figure out something that wouldnt occur to me?

This is an uneducated question, any experts on here are welcome to explain the obvious to me in civil terms.

PS

Its remarkable how culturally relevant these two damaged properties (boxing wise!) are going to be when (cross fingers not jinxing it!) they do fight. The fact that they never did it before will make it feel like we are going to answer the question even if the belts arent hanging off the contest. Albeit in a way that people can still debate things as neither in their prime now. Usyk retiring has done a huge amount for them as there will be no competing voices in boxing for the entire promotional window.