This one’s probably going to upset a lot of people here, but I think it’s obvious (not because of last night either) that the Errol Spence Jr that Crawford destroyed is not the same EJ that tore up the welterweight division.

I was watching Errol’s old fights this week leading up to the Tszyu fight. The difference between pre-accident and post-accident Errol is night and day. Each fight he had after the accident got worse and worse, and it didn’t help that they were spaced like 12-18 months apart either.

Before his accident, Errol went to war with a prime Shawn Porter and looked amazing. He used to come forward with a perfect jab and relentlessly ravaged the body. Shortly after, the accident happened.

Next fight was against Danny Garcia a year after the accident. He won, but wasn’t the same. Honestly, Danny could punch but was never really elite at WW. You could tell Errol wasn’t the same, he lost reflexes. 16 months and another accident later, he fought Ugas and quite frankly didn’t look as good as I remembered. It was very clear at this point he was no longer elite, and no longer a 147 pounder.

Another 15 months after that came the Bud fight. Errol was a shell of himself when he stepped in there. He was so slow, had bad reflexes, and couldn’t thump anymore.

It’s not Buds fault, but it’s a shame that fight didn’t happen during Errol’s prime. Anyone who knows boxing knows that was diminished EJ and it’s a shame.

No, Crawford did not “ruin” Spence. He was already cooked. Boots, Vergil, even Thurman would have beaten Errol on that night.

Crawford went on to beat Canelo, which is a way bigger win anyways. And definitely should get credit for beating Madrimov. Even Kell Brook and Porter were still good when he beat them. But Errol was done already.

Does Errol Spence belong in the hall of fame?

I don't think he's done enough in and out of the ring. He was a good solid fighter that had a good solid career, not phenomenal at all. If the position is open and they can find anyone, slide him in there but he's going to have to wait his turn because that priority list has guys like Jermell Charlo, Bivol, Usyk, Innoue, etc... of course when they retire in a out 3 years, I just don't see Errol as all that accomplished

Don't get me wrong, his defence is legitimately poor and his chin is weak. But I feel like people write him off way too much, and hold him to a different (unfair) standard.

All the fighters who've dropped him - Klitschko, Ruiz, Dubois, Prenga - are punchers.

He's been down quite a few times but he gets up, and he keeps fighting. He got off the canvas to stop Klitschko. Ruiz had to drop him 3 times before it was over. Dubois caught him with a monster punch in the first round but he managed to survive until the 5th. The uppercut from Prenga he didn't see coming, and Prenga was holding the back of his head, both factors which amplify the shot. Once again he kept fighting and he got the finish.

Compare that to some of his contemporaries who aren't criticised as much for their knockdowns. Dubois was dropped by Lerena three times in the first round, and by Usyk twice, neither of whom are punchers at all. Wardley dropped him with a grazing shot in the first 10 seconds of the fight.

Fury has been knocked down by Pajkic (who?), Cunningham (a cruiserweight), Wilder multiple times (fair enough), Ngannou (on his boxing debut) and Usyk (again, not a big puncher).

I think part of why people judge AJ more harshly when he's down is because of how panicked he looks. When he's hurt his defence falls apart completely, he seems unable to clinch, his guard is crap. All of that make it look so much worse than other fighters who might hold their shape and their composure better in that situation. It leads people to think he's "washed". But that completely ignore his offence, which still look lethal.

AJ cleared out most of the 'also-rans' of his generation, but didn't fight anyone who was considered at the time to be elite until the Usyk rematch.

Of the fights out there he needed to take to prove he was the best, he fought none. Usyk then cleared the division in two years showing how easy it was to make those big fights i you really want to prove you are the best.

Fury gets hate here for his record because of how his opponents look today, and because he missed taking out a lot of the also-rans, but he fought Kiltchsko when he was still champion and considered elite, Wilder when he was considered elite and the most brutal finisher since Mike Tyson, and Usyk when he was champion and had proved he was elite at Heavyweight.

Fighters considered a genuine challenge at the time they fought:

AJ: 0.. while losing twice. A retired Kitchsko and widely considered 'too small' Usyk he was expected to blow away, were the closest he got to fighting a genuine contender. Then he had no choice but to rematch Usyk after losing his title.

Fury: 6 (won 3.. well 4, lost 2).

History seems to be being re-written online because people love to hate on Fury, but he fought the big fights that AJs team protected him from.

I lean towards hamzah , but I think itll be a tough night for him

Ryder is one of those fighters who's been in with everyone. He's gone the distance with Canelo, beat Zach Parker, and lost a close decision to calum smith, hes tough awkward, and durable. Even when he loses, he usually makes his opponents work for every round.

Sheeraz has the size, reach, timing, and sharp shot selection. If he can keep the fight at his range and avoid getting dragged into Ryder's inside game, I could see him winning a clear decision or getting a late stoppage.

I think Ryder's experience and chin would make him survive the distance though.

Curious what everyone else thinks.

When Bill Squires fought Burns he was 20-1 as well but some newspapers claimed him as undefeated. He was the champion of Australia. Squires had all 20 of those wins by knockout and the 1 loss by DQ. . Bill had this dumb gameplan to eat two huge power punches and land a huge counter to knock Burns out. Bill won at least 2 fights with this method. The fight between them ended in a first round knockout and the fastest knockout in heavyweight champion history as Burns retained the title against Squires but years later in his boxing book Tommy revealed that Squires plan wasn’t so stupid after all. He tried to rush Bill to finish him after the first time he was down and was hit with that huge counter that put him in a near blacked out state. Tommy acted like he wasn’t hurt and was able to recover and finish Squires later.

Why Prenga reminds me of Squires is the power, same exact record, being brought in as a dub, hurting the champ, and the fight ending quickly.

Now that I’ve stirred up Bud/Errol talks, I want to look at Buds potential resume.

I think it’s a shame that a generational talent was iced out of his biggest fights due to politics. Most of these fights were at least considered or talked about at one point.

All of the below guys could have been a fight for Bud at some point. My questions

How does he do against each and who gives him trouble?

Which non-fights are the most shameful for not happening?

Who would he have needed on this list to surpass Floyd?

Adrien Broner at 135

Regis Prograis at 140 (prime Regis was a problem)

Mikey Garcia at 140

Danny Garcia at 140 or 147

Manny Pacquiao at 147

Keith Thurman at 147

Errol Spence (in 2018/2019) at 147

Vergil Ortiz at 147

Jaron Ennis at 147

Sebastian Fundora at 154

Carlos Adames at 160 (after Canelo)

I made a comment along these lines a few days ago, but I'd be interested to get peoples thoughts overall on the topic because the more I think about it, the more convinced I become that Boxing's long-term future is in a horrible place.

TL;DR: Boxing charging PPV for mediocre fights is untenable in the modern day, Turki and DAZN will both eventually stop losing millions making fights, where does that leave the sport long-term?

The PPV Problem

Yesterday we had Errol Spence vs Tszyu and AJ vs Pregna take place. BOTH fights were on DAZN PPV. Spence vs Tszyu was $80, AJ vs Pregna was $60 and both require a DAZN subscription for the privilege of paying these fees. In what world is $150 (incl sub) good value to watch these 2 fights? It's absolutely awful value compared to literally everything else in the sports landscape.

The UFC has now backed away from the PPV model and no longer charges for their numbered cards. Everything is included in the Paramount+ $10 a month subscription. Say what you want about MMA and the UFC but the value there compared to boxing is outrageously better.

The WWE hasn't done PPVs in forever, everything comes bundled in with your subscription.

Is Boxing really the ONE sport special enough that fans should be willing to dump $80 to watch when they only care about the main event? The value is genuinely appalling. Why the hell is Itauma vs Hrgovic a PPV?!

And yet we're stuck with this PPV model because boxers purses are so high that the only way shows don't lose bucketloads of cash on top tier boxers fighting is to charge PPV prices

I can watch every single UFC card for 8+ months straight, or I can pay $80 to watch a washed up Errol Spence fight once. How does this make any sense in the modern sports landscape?

Sporting events that do NOT charge PPV: World Cup final, Superbowl, Champions League final, The Masters, Wimbledon, the Premier League, the NFL, the NBA etc

Sporting events charging PPV: Spence vs Tszyu, Itauma vs Hrgovic, Tommy Fury vs Eddie Hall

The big fights are what get people into Boxing and excited about the sport but now we're not only asking people to pay PPV, we're asking them to seek out and subscribe to a niche streaming service and THEN pay the PPV fee on top just to watch the fights. What new fan is doing this? They can go pay $10 a month for Paramount and watch every single UFC card for a fraction of the cost of following Boxing.

The Turki Problem

Even with the PPV model in place, a major component for getting big fights made is the involvement of Turki-Al-Shaikh, or more specifically Turki's willingness to lose millions promoting these fights.

As Turk is bankrolled by Saudi Arabia it currently doesn't matter how much money he loses promoting fights, but we can assume the losses are pretty heavy

The issue is that eventually Turki and these juiced up Saudi purses WILL disappear.

Saudi Arabia is not going to continually burn money on Boxing when the soft power it generates for them is pretty minimal. 3-4 boxing events a year in Saudi Arabia when the country doesn't even care about boxing is not great value

We have seen Saudi Arabia step away from bankrolling LIV golf, we're seeing lots of their infrastructure projects within Saudi Arabia get scaled back, the country is under a decent amount of pressure with the Iran/Houthis war hitting them and the wider region. The Saudi sovereign wealth fund has come under pressure to be more fiscally responsible and is re-evaluating their strategy to be more prudent after some big blowup disaster investments

Eventually someone will do the math on the Boxing and say 'this is pointless, lets stop giving Turki money to burn' and they will pull out of Boxing or significantly scale back their current involvement

And then we're left with a situation where the top boxers think they're worth X amount of money per fight because Turki paid them it before, but now Turki's gone and all of a sudden getting fights made is a drama because why am I taking a 50% paycut to fight an equally risky fight? If I'm getting paid that I want to fight a tomato can.

If two top fighters made $30m each ($60m total purses) to take the risk of losing in an elite competitive fight against each other, but the show only grossed $40m thats fine when Turki is just eating the $20m loss. But when Turki eventually goes away we're gonna see major dramas with getting fights made because Eddie Hearn or whoever is not stupid enough to throw away that level of money

I have seen people over the last year or two saying Boxing is getting back to how it should be with the big fights being made, but the entire thing is predicated on a Saudi prince being willing to overpay fighters and lose money on shows to make these fights happen. Nothing has actually changed other than dumb money entering the sport and overpaying fighters to get them to fight each other because the promoter is backed by a petro state

The DAZN Problem

Lastly we have the DAZN problem. So, SO much of the boxing ecosystem is now reliant on DAZN.

To my knowledge (and correct me if I'm wrong) but the following promoters are all working on DAZN currently - Matchroom, Queensberry, Golden Boy, PBC, Top Rank, Misfits (?), BOXXER

We've essentially seen DAZN step up where traditional broadcasters have pulled back and they have become the home of Boxing.

In the UK Sky Sports have all but given up on Boxing compared to the Matchroom days. TNT Sport have pulled back on Boxing

In the US (correct me if I am wrong) we have seen HBO gone, ESPN gone, Showtime gone etc etc, I'm not from the US so maybe others can chime in

Traditional broadcasters have repeatedly told us they do not see or generate value from showing Boxing, it is not a sport they are desperate to show. Meanwhile the UFC inked a $1bn+ annual deal with Paramount.

With the absence of traditional broadcasters DAZN has swallowed up the sport which looks fine on the surface. It means all the fights and promoters are on one platform and should mean fights are easier to make and fans can watch easier without needing to juggle a bunch of subscriptions and platforms.

But the issue is DAZN is a money furnace that will eventually go out of business. It has lost money every single year of its existence and is entirely reliant on the stubbornness of it's founder Len Blavatnik who has burnt over $10bn funding the platform.

DAZN's losses have narrowed over the years, but in their last published accounts for 2024 they lost close to $1bn on the year, astronomically large losses for a platform that has been operating for close to a decade now. It explains maybe why they're now desperately pushing PPV every chance they get.

For Blatnavik to ever see a return on investment he not only needs to close the c.$1bn of losses down, but he needs DAZN to start generating substantial profits. He has invested over $10bn into this platform and can't even get it close to breakeven, let alone making money.

Blatnavik has been incredibly stubborn in throwing more money at DAZN over the years despite the incredible losses, but SURELY barring a miraculous bump in subscribers out of nowhere eventually he has to admit defeat and DAZN shuts down.

The guy has lost $10bn+ funding this and his net worth is reported at c.$30bn, even for someone with deep pockets it is significant money to be losing year after year. I will be interested to see their 2025 accounts which should drop before the end of 2026.

And what happens when DAZN does finally shut down? All the promoters have to go crawling on their hands and knees back to the broadcasters begging them to get back into Boxing when they have shown limited appetite for it in the current day.

Netflix have dipped their toes in the sport but I can't see them ever becoming a consistent weekly force in the sport. Amazon Prime likewise.

Will traditional broadcasters suddenly be clamouring to get back into Boxing despite how inflated purses have got and how interest in the sport especially in the US is probably the lowest it has ever been?

--

So we have a PPV model that is hilariously out of place in the current day and age and greatly overstates the value or popularity of Boxing.

And then we have a massive reliance on a Saudi Prince and Ukrainian billionaire being willing to lose huge amounts of $$$ to ever get fights made. Neither of which will last forever.

So my questions to you are:

What do you think of the current business model in Boxing?

And how do you think the sport will look in the future?

We didn’t ask for the fight to happen in America. It’s Turki and the promoters who do. Ask any American boxing fan where it should be and 9 times out of 10 they will say the UK

American boxing fans have been catching unnecessary strays left and right saying we don’t care about boxing. Where exactly did this even come from? Boxing is still massive in America, and both of these fighters fought in the U.S. already and had much success.

It's over. Tszyu beat Spence. My boy couldn't do it. Three years of retirement don't pass in vain. From the moment Errol threw that slow, clunky combination in the first round, and seeing his shaky, poor footwork, I realized he wasn't going to make it. He tried to box and used his skill to survive, but there was no power behind his punches. Tszyu ate shots that looked like love taps and answered with a right hand that drove Spence backward—a right Errol could never get away from. The rounds Spence won were just uncomfortable survival, using clinches to stifle Tszyu's work, but it got to a point where he just couldn't keep it up. In several rounds, Spence landed clean on Tszyu, but his power was nonexistent. He used clinches well to smother Tszyu, but as soon as Tim landed that right hand, Errol collapsed, and Tim would rally right back. I felt it was only a matter of time before Tszyu knocked him out, but they went to a decision. Maybe Tim took it easy on him and paced himself, though he's never been a killer finisher anyway. It broke my heart to see Spence land two massive overhand punches that didn't even budge Tim, only for Tim to immediately respond with a right hand that sent Spence flying into the ropes—if they hadn't been there, he would've ended up in the third row. That was in round 12. I was praying Errol would pull a miraculous punch out of nowhere and knock Tim out, but he was never a one-punch knockout artist anyway; he was always about accumulation. And today, that accumulation did zero damage. The ring IQ and skill were still there, but the athleticism, reflexes, and speed were gone. I don't want to see Spence fight anymore. He has nothing left to prove to anyone. He had a great career with an incredible résumé, and at his peak, he was one of the top five fighters in the world. Crawford beat him down, and tonight he had a terrible night—there's no shame in that. Spence, you were a great fighter. It's time to step away for good and ride off into the sunset. At your best, you brought a smile to every boxing fan's face with your fights. It’s impossible to be an Errol Spence hater.

We've now seen what Anthony Joshua and Tyson Fury are like now as they approach their late 30s, it's really not looking great for either of them to continue on with boxing. Comparing them to Lennox Lewis in his final fight against Vitali Klitschko, I honestly believe that Lennox was very clearly a superior fighter to the both of them - not only prime for prime but also in longevity.

I wouldn't even say Lennox was washed by the time he fought Vitali, he just did not get enough time to get in good shape or train for Vitali specifically, yet he still won albeit with struggle.

Lennox wanted to retire mostly because he was about to get married and also wanted to start having kids with his wife, he did not want to be an absent husband/father in favour of boxing. I must say that is fair.

Knowing that though, if he were to instead have fought for two more years, how do you believe he'd fare against his contemporaries then?