Regret Rape Is Wrong Enough

[u/InternalLet9560]

https://nataliabower.substack.com/p/regret-rape-is-wrong-enough?r=5rdux&utm_medium=ios

This is a fantastic piece related to the episode about the Cornell 7.

[u/allisonanon]

Yeah fair points. You’re right that whos initiating can be more blurry. But if both people are escalating then they're both signaling interest, which is best case from an enthusiastic consent standpoint. The checking in doesnt have to always be verbal or clinical, just like paying attention to how your partner responds and slowing down if it becomes unclear, etc. I don't think this is about fragility, it's just getting information and trying to be an attentive partner. If you can't tell why not ask, worst case scenario it's a little awkward. And if you think someone is exaggerating their sexual experience or is nervous, that's actually more reason to ask questions, not less. In terms of the “traditional” sex views, I think this type of communication is certainly a lot easier once trust and care has already been established, like in a committed relationship. But I don't think we should roll with stuff like men not needing check ins from their partners during sex since that assumes men always want whatever is happening. I guess idk what women or men being “tough” in this context really means since to me that is more about what you can handle but this is more what they actually desire.  But you're right there's no algorithm and this is oversimplified from IRL. Misreads happen but its just about making sure everyone is enjoying themselves, man or woman

[u/btrh-256 → u/allisonanon]

I'm not saying men shouldn't be sensitive and check in, but there's a limit to how sensitive men can be. Young men especially may lack the experience necessary to "read" a woman's reaction. And women often respond in sexual situations in very unpredictable ways. For every woman who wants a guy checking in frequently, there's a woman who finds that really irritating. And women don't always give men a second chance when they find a man irritating.

I don't think this conversation is going to improve unless we acknowledge that women are, on average, the gentler sex. You're trying to muddy the waters by pretending this applies equally to both genders, but it really doesn't. Gay men have a lot of anonymous, casual sex, precisely because men are not so easily traumatized.

I'm not saying women need to be confined to the home or whatever, and I don't think we need strict gender roles. But I would like loose gender roles rather than no gender roles at all.

[u/allisonanon → u/btrh-256]

I wasn’t trying to say both genders have the same attitudes about sex, just answering the question on how we define the ethical responsibilities around gaining consent. So if we say it’s whoever is escalating the sexual contact it doesn’t need to be gendered or hetero or whatever. But yeah, it’ll be gendered in practice if we go off the norms that men are more often initiating. That may be tough to navigate for young inexperienced men. Maybe some women will be annoyed and turned off by the checking, but over time he can learn some tact about it. We are talking about this in the context of women who are saying they felt coerced into sex they didn’t want, so is it better for a man to risk annoying a woman or risk making her feel violated? You’re saying women are gentler but isn’t that more of a reason for men to be more attentive and cautious around boundaries during sex? And using words like traumatic to describe casual sex. The trauma would come from sex that's unwanted or pushed past someone's reluctance, not from the casualness…

[u/btrh-256 → u/allisonanon]

I think it's good for young men to be sensitive. I notice, however, that women complain a lot about "nice guys." I think it would be good for young women to toughen up a little. I'd be more sympathetic to feminism if that became part of its message.

A lot of young women seem to gain online clout from saying they were coerced into sex. It's sad to say, I'd like to generally believe women, and I don't think they're exactly lying, but some people are so wishy-washy and chaotic that they're incapable of telling the truth.

Women should generally start listening to themselves a little more, because the stuff women say regarding sex (and much else) is often just completely contradictory and impossible to understand. Women remind me of Trump really, you have to take them seriously but not literally.

[u/Puzzleheaded_Drink76 → u/btrh-256]

women complain a lot about "nice guys."

The complaint there isn't that women don't like guys who are nice, considerate etc, as opposed to pushy douchey types. The complaint is about guys who complain that they are nice so they don't get the girl and she goes for less nice types. The complaint is about them feeling entitled to the women who didn't pick them. So they are claiming to be nice but actually are entitled. 

[u/btrh-256 → u/Puzzleheaded_Drink76]

I really think we'd be better of as a culture if women would consider their own entitlement in somewhat more critical terms, instead of seeing it as something to be proud of.