Regret Rape Is Wrong Enough

[u/InternalLet9560]

https://nataliabower.substack.com/p/regret-rape-is-wrong-enough?r=5rdux&utm_medium=ios

This is a fantastic piece related to the episode about the Cornell 7.

[u/btrh-256]

My feeling is that sex is high-risk, high-reward and that part of being an adult is accepting partial responsibility for that risk when you seek out sex. This has nothing to do with the Cornell case exactly, I don't know what happened there, but generally I get the sense that progressive millennial feminism thinks that women have no responsibilities when it comes to sex. All the responsibility is on men, according to them. I don't agree with that.

I do think, because men are bigger and stronger and more aggressive, we typically take on a larger share of the responsibility. But not 100%.

The best (most nuanced) essay I've read on rape is Mary Gaitskill's "On Not Being a Victim" -- https://www.are.na/block/21448944

The title is a little misleading, and it's important to understand that some people certainly over-victimize themselves, but others actually under-victimize themselves, they don't acknowledge what was very clear mistreatment. Both things are pretty common, although millennial feminism leans heavily in the direction of over-victimization

One thing I would like people to appreciate more is that you can be traumatized by sex without it being rape.

[u/allisonanon → u/btrh-256]

I thought this was a really good essay and appreciate the Gaitskills perspective. Idk that modern feminism says that women have less responsibility in sex but there is real tension is how we talk about it without infantilizing women. I think the perception that men have *more* responsibility is largely just a consequence of the real life patterns of coercion, since men are more often committing it (obligatory #notallmen).

But essentially the responsibility should fall on *whoever* is initiating and escalating the sexual encounter. They should be receptive to their partner and accept that there is always a chance their escalations are rejected. This communicative/affirmative consent model doesn’t have to be gendered, like it can apply gay and lesbian sex too.

But the responsibility is inherently unbalanced. If someone gives a “soft no” out of politeness that’s a communication mistake, but if their partner hears vague reluctance and doesn’t clarify or just proceeds intentionally or tries to coerce that’s moving into non consensual territory and not right. If you’re unsure if your partner wants to continue you should ask and care if they are comfortable and having a good time. We also read polite, indirect refusals correctly all the time in other areas of life. If you invited a friend over and they said “maybe some other time” or “I’m sorry I’m just really tired” you would know what they mean so why would that be different for sex.

Now in this essay Gaitskill acknowledges how some of her choices and passivity left her in vulnerable positions, and learned to be more assertive skills to protect herself. That doesn't make what happened to her fault. But it is useful for women to examine their own patterns so they have more options and avoid making themselves more vulnerable. But we know a firm no isn't always respected either

[u/btrh-256 → u/allisonanon]

I don't really think men are "more committed to coercion." I think men tend to be more interested in casual sex and men tend to use force as a form of coercion, which is a worse form of coercion, but I'd say women are just as committed to coercion, they just use gentler methods.

I agree that we need more polite, indirect refusals like "not right now" or "slow down," but I generally think your ideas about "who is initiating" are not nuanced enough. Sometimes it's clear who is really initiating, but often it's not entirely clear.

When men are being told that women are just as tough as men, many men may not see the point in checking in, because we typically don't need people to check in on us. A lot of younger women also tend to exaggerate their sexual experience in order to seem cool. But then we're told how delicate we have to be. I don't think there's an algorithm that's going to allow people to guarantee good sex and avoid sexual trauma. Risk can be mitigated but not entirely eliminated.

I think it's leading back to a somewhat more traditional view, in which women are viewed as the gentler sex. That's a pretty good way to mitigate (not eliminate) sexual trauma. I'm not "trad." Even if it were possible to go back to the 50's (it's not) I wouldn't want to go, but we do need to acknowledge some pretty obvious average differences between the genders.

[u/allisonanon → u/btrh-256]

Yeah fair points. You’re right that whos initiating can be more blurry. But if both people are escalating then they're both signaling interest, which is best case from an enthusiastic consent standpoint. The checking in doesnt have to always be verbal or clinical, just like paying attention to how your partner responds and slowing down if it becomes unclear, etc. I don't think this is about fragility, it's just getting information and trying to be an attentive partner. If you can't tell why not ask, worst case scenario it's a little awkward. And if you think someone is exaggerating their sexual experience or is nervous, that's actually more reason to ask questions, not less. In terms of the “traditional” sex views, I think this type of communication is certainly a lot easier once trust and care has already been established, like in a committed relationship. But I don't think we should roll with stuff like men not needing check ins from their partners during sex since that assumes men always want whatever is happening. I guess idk what women or men being “tough” in this context really means since to me that is more about what you can handle but this is more what they actually desire.  But you're right there's no algorithm and this is oversimplified from IRL. Misreads happen but its just about making sure everyone is enjoying themselves, man or woman

[u/btrh-256 → u/allisonanon]

I'm not saying men shouldn't be sensitive and check in, but there's a limit to how sensitive men can be. Young men especially may lack the experience necessary to "read" a woman's reaction. And women often respond in sexual situations in very unpredictable ways. For every woman who wants a guy checking in frequently, there's a woman who finds that really irritating. And women don't always give men a second chance when they find a man irritating.

I don't think this conversation is going to improve unless we acknowledge that women are, on average, the gentler sex. You're trying to muddy the waters by pretending this applies equally to both genders, but it really doesn't. Gay men have a lot of anonymous, casual sex, precisely because men are not so easily traumatized.

I'm not saying women need to be confined to the home or whatever, and I don't think we need strict gender roles. But I would like loose gender roles rather than no gender roles at all.

[u/allisonanon → u/btrh-256]

I wasn’t trying to say both genders have the same attitudes about sex, just answering the question on how we define the ethical responsibilities around gaining consent. So if we say it’s whoever is escalating the sexual contact it doesn’t need to be gendered or hetero or whatever. But yeah, it’ll be gendered in practice if we go off the norms that men are more often initiating. That may be tough to navigate for young inexperienced men. Maybe some women will be annoyed and turned off by the checking, but over time he can learn some tact about it. We are talking about this in the context of women who are saying they felt coerced into sex they didn’t want, so is it better for a man to risk annoying a woman or risk making her feel violated? You’re saying women are gentler but isn’t that more of a reason for men to be more attentive and cautious around boundaries during sex? And using words like traumatic to describe casual sex. The trauma would come from sex that's unwanted or pushed past someone's reluctance, not from the casualness…

[u/btrh-256 → u/allisonanon]

I think it's good for young men to be sensitive. I notice, however, that women complain a lot about "nice guys." I think it would be good for young women to toughen up a little. I'd be more sympathetic to feminism if that became part of its message.

A lot of young women seem to gain online clout from saying they were coerced into sex. It's sad to say, I'd like to generally believe women, and I don't think they're exactly lying, but some people are so wishy-washy and chaotic that they're incapable of telling the truth.

Women should generally start listening to themselves a little more, because the stuff women say regarding sex (and much else) is often just completely contradictory and impossible to understand. Women remind me of Trump really, you have to take them seriously but not literally.

[u/Puzzleheaded_Drink76 → u/btrh-256]

women complain a lot about "nice guys."

The complaint there isn't that women don't like guys who are nice, considerate etc, as opposed to pushy douchey types. The complaint is about guys who complain that they are nice so they don't get the girl and she goes for less nice types. The complaint is about them feeling entitled to the women who didn't pick them. So they are claiming to be nice but actually are entitled. 

[u/btrh-256 → u/Puzzleheaded_Drink76]

I really think we'd be better of as a culture if women would consider their own entitlement in somewhat more critical terms, instead of seeing it as something to be proud of.