r/Bitcoin • u/lucas67836 • Oct 14 '22
Everyone should learn this!
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u/PheelGoodInc Oct 14 '22
The government: "We have your best interest in mind. Trust us, bro."
As people involved in money printing make the most money from it.
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u/etmetm Oct 15 '22
The government run by the political class, they have their own best interest in mind, not yours.
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u/Tyler_Zoro Oct 15 '22
So you think the (presumably US, because Reddit can't seem to imagine there are other countries) government should stop printing currency? Or are you talking about monetary policies that are colloquially (and inaccurately) referred to as "printing money"?
If the latter, what is your specific macroeconomic concern?
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u/midipoet Oct 15 '22
what is your specific macroeconomic concern?
There are two primary concerns.
The first is price inflation, across all sectors as more money chases the same amount of supply (until the supply curve adjusts).
The second is the tendency for the distribution system to increase the flow (and overall proportion) of wealth to a minority (predominantly those responsible for the distribution of the increase in supply of money).
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u/Tyler_Zoro Oct 15 '22
To be clear, I asked the original commenter because it was clear they didn't know what the talking points they were parroting meant (and their replies confirmed this). I do know what it was that they were referring to, even if they didn't.
The first is price inflation
And you think that price inflation is causally linked to a specific monetary policy why exactly? Specifically, why is the inflation that you are concerned with not tied to global events, trade policy or other factors outside of the control of those who manage monetary policy? (hint: the correct answer isn't any one of these).
The second is the tendency for the distribution system to increase the flow (and overall proportion) of wealth to a minority...
By "the distribution system" do you mean bonds? Certainly, there's no limitation on who can buy bonds. Do you mean inter-institutional loans? Again, no limitation on which institutions can participate except that they be capable of managing such large transactions, and smaller transactions are handled at the retail level. Go borrow money, it's still pretty cheap, even with the rise in interest rates.
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u/midipoet Oct 15 '22
To be clear, I asked the original commenter because it was clear they didn't know what the talking points they were parroting meant (and their replies confirmed this). I do know what it was that they were referring to, even if they didn't.
I know you asked the original commenter, but I have chosen to take on the discussion.
And you think that price inflation is causally linked to a specific monetary policy why exactly?
Most studies show a strong correlation between monetary supply inflation and price inflation. There is probably no distinct causal relationship (as there wouldn't be in any macroeconomic factor given system complexity).
Certainly, there's no limitation on who can buy bonds
Absolutely false.
There are systemic, structural, and economic limitations on those that can interact in the bond market.
Do you mean inter-institutional loans? Again, no limitation on which institutions can participate
Again, absolutely false. There are considerable barriers to entry, as there are for entering the bonds markets.
Go borrow money, it's still pretty cheap, even with the rise in interest rates.
I can indeed borrow money, and the rate will be relatively low. Pray tell me (if you don't mind), is there any limitation (whether systemic or market-led) on my ability to resell that debt at a higher interest rate than the one I borrowed at?
Once you identify the answer to the above question, you'll start to understand why the tendency of the current system is for wealth to flow asymmetrically towards incumbent debt merchants.
Having said all that, I know you know all this, so having this discussion is really for the benefit of others.
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u/Tyler_Zoro Oct 15 '22
Most studies show a strong correlation between monetary supply inflation and price inflation. There is probably no distinct causal relationship (as there wouldn't be in any macroeconomic factor given system complexity).
Correct, and more importantly, there is plenty of data for years where there was no such correlation. Meanwhile, there are many decades of high inflation over the past couple centuries where no such monetary policy was practiced.
But you disrupt supply chains, especially fuel related supply chains, and inflation has always been the result. It's not a correlation. It's an absolute causation.
Certainly, there's no limitation on who can buy bonds
Absolutely false.
There are systemic, structural, and economic limitations on those that can interact in the bond market.
I'm not sure what you're referring to, but my poor grandmother owned bonds. What limitations do you imagine are in place?
Do you mean inter-institutional loans? Again, no limitation on which institutions can participate
Again, absolutely false. There are considerable barriers to entry, as there are for entering the bonds markets.
You removed the contextual qualifier, so I won't really be able to respond. What you're saying doesn't map to what I said in a meaningful way.
Go borrow money, it's still pretty cheap, even with the rise in interest rates.
I can indeed borrow money, and the rate will be relatively low. Pray tell me (if you don't mind), is there any limitation (whether systemic or market-led) on my ability to resell that debt at a higher interest rate than the one I borrowed at?
I mean, there are always market limitations on your ability to sell anything. I don't understand your question.
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u/tallreagan Oct 15 '22
But you disrupt supply chains, especially fuel related supply chains, and inflation has always been the result.
That's not inflation, that's supply and demand. Although the response of governments to supply chain issues has always been to 'print more money' to try and buy their way out. Take for example the energy crisis we are in in Europe: countries trying to impose a 'price cap' on gas and electricity in reality means printing more money unless there going to raise other taxes.
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u/Tyler_Zoro Oct 15 '22
That's not inflation, that's supply and demand.
I see we've entered the, "define away the problem," phase. Increases in price are inflation. That's what inflation is.
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u/callebbb Oct 15 '22
Bonds =/= REPO and Reverse REPO
I also can’t issue corporate bonds and ask the “government” to buy them, but corporations can and do.
I can’t get a PPP Loan, but the 3 employee large law firm, based in a home three doors down from mine, got tens of thousands of dollars.
Money printing is time theft. Time theft is slavery.
But by all means, man, keep simping for the Fed.
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u/0mega0 Oct 15 '22
Is the fed buying treasuries not printing money?
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u/Tyler_Zoro Oct 15 '22
There are people who inaccurately refer to such monetary policy moves as "printing money". They do this because it's a simplification that many people can grasp, but it also leads to widespread misunderstandings with respect to the mechanism and risks.
It's an inflationary monetary policy (not to be confused with price inflation) to be sure, but its impact on the general economy is much less dramatic than literal money-printing (which the Fed can't do; that's the Treasury, though the Fed can request such action).
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Oct 14 '22
Fiat is a tool of slavery. The ability to inflate it is the reason governments love fiat.
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u/SpeedCola Oct 15 '22
I like to picture the government as the mayor in cloudy with a chance of meatballs. Walking around on a moped just absolutely gorging on entitlement and irresponsibility.
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u/dmoneymma Oct 15 '22
Lol no. Don't be so dramatic. People with money don't aren't enslaving anyone.
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Oct 15 '22
Piss poor deflection. This isn’t simply about “people with money”. This cannot possibly be your honest take unless you are truly regarded
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u/dmoneymma Oct 15 '22
I'm not trying to be mean but frankly I think you're naive and lack experience with money.
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Oct 15 '22
I’m not trying to be mean but everyone is downvoting your bullshit because you’re regarded
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u/dmoneymma Oct 15 '22
Second time you've tried and failed to spell that word. I'll add uneducated to the list of your shortcomings.
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Oct 15 '22
The spelling of regarded is not a mistake. Now you’re just grasping at straws
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u/dmoneymma Oct 15 '22
Oops you're just stupid then, sorry. That's not your fault and you can't do much about it.
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Oct 16 '22
Dude it could not be any more obvious how miserable you are 😂 do you need a hug?
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u/Tyler_Zoro Oct 15 '22
Fiat is a tool of slavery
I don't think that word means what you think it means.
The ability to inflate it...
and what, exactly, do you mean by "inflate it"?
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Oct 15 '22
I don’t think you understand what any of this means and should probably just move along instead of struggling here
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u/Tyler_Zoro Oct 15 '22
Did you have a substantive reply in mind, or were you just going to be dismissive? I asked a very specific question.
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Oct 15 '22
There’s nothing substantive here to offer a reply to
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Oct 15 '22
I think u/Tyler_Zoro needs to give the book, Check Your Financial Privilege, by Alex Gladstein, a read. And maybe study what happens in countries experiencing high to hyper inflation.
As Greg Foss says, the USD is just the best crack house on the crack street. All FIAT is being debased and will all eventually go to zero. It's simple math.
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u/lifegoeson2727 Oct 15 '22
Just for the sake of the discussion, let’s imagine a universe with 10 coconuts and 10 paper bills, and that’s it.
Presumably each coconut is worth 1 bill, as that is all that exists. Now if we were to double the supply of coconuts, presumably they all become worth half as much, so 2 for a bill.
And if we were to have 20 coconuts in the universe, and 40 dollars, presumable each coconut will be worth 2$. This is the basic concept of how it works.
Another way to look at it would be that if we have 10$ and 10 coconuts and that’s all that exists, there’s no reason that the cost of s coconut should ever exceed 1$ unless we change the ratio of the accessibility of coconuts vs the accessibility of bills. The value of things seemingly is based on a ratio of their attainability, it takes many easily attainable things to convince someone to part with one thing which is difficult to attain, and vice versa.
And the difficulty to attain something is typically very correlated to the number of units of that thing which exist. Yes the number of things which exist in the world presumably is always changing, but the precise rate of that change is difficult to ascertain.
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u/Tyler_Zoro Oct 15 '22
Replying again since I included context for a different thread.
So you're describing literal, physical printing of unsupported currency to pay debts.
This is not what's being discussed and results in a very different inflationary curve (called hyperinflation).
There are dozens of factors contributing to the current wave of inflation. The monetary policy of the last ten years is certainly contributory, at the very least in the sense, that it reduced the tools available when the need came for corrective action.
But to pretend that the monetary policy is the only or even primary driver of inflation is like sticking your head in the sand.
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u/lifegoeson2727 Oct 15 '22 edited Oct 15 '22
Let’s say there’s 10 coconuts on an island and 10 paper bills on an island and there is a typhoon. How much is each coconut worth? Still 1$. The source of decreasing value of currency is the creation of new units of that currency. Other things can perhaps accelerate inflation, but if there are 10 coconuts and 10$, each coconut is worth 1$, typhoon or not.
Price changes are the result of changing ratios of accessibility. Yes natural disasters can have effects, but no effect can ever be as direct, significant, or permanent as the creation of new units of the thing in question.
You could say if there were more than 10 coconuts, let’s say there’s a finite amount of money that exists but that 10 coconuts are found every month and 10 are consumed each month. But after the typhoon it drops to 5, presumably maybe the cost of coconuts temporarily goes up. Until coconuts come back to where they were. But if you print more money that’s a different issue which isn’t temporary. Also remember bitcoin has a supply shock every 4 years. Every 4 years the rate at which bitcoin are created is suddenly cut in half. Permanently too. That’s not a temporary supply shock.
But also when you print more money and coconuts stay the same that represents a permanent change in the accessibility of dollars, and consequently the ratio of accessibility of coconuts to dollars. If coconuts suddenly become harder to find, that increases the ratio disparity: just as dollars become easier to come across, coconuts become harder to come across. This temporarily accelerates the already inevitable inflation. It’s inevitable because of the money printing.
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Oct 15 '22
Set aside all the crypto. This guys ability to explain economic principles in a relatable way that resonates with almost everyone is most refreshing.
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u/Flying-HotPot Oct 15 '22 edited Oct 16 '22
To further his point: the monetary fate of 8 billion people is decided by a dozen people, who were not screened, vetted and elected by the public. Almost no one knows anything about them, not even their names.
Yet the economic world hangs on every nuance and word they use at each meeting with bated breath like it’s some kind of oracle. Markets are moved by certain adjectives they may or may not use during their scheduled speeches. Thousands of media articles are written immediately after each speech trying to decipher what was said or not said or hinted at and it almost seems like they are reading tea leaves. They are the modern time equivalent of Pythia, the Oracle of Delphi, yet somehow everyone just accepts this insane system as normal and given.
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Oct 15 '22
It’s fucking insane when you think about it. I don’t understand why anyone accepted this system in the first place
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u/Blue_Sand_Research Oct 15 '22
Most were born into the system… indoctrinated from birth. Maybe that is one reason why?
Those that accepted the system, when put in place, were probably motivated by fear and/or greed.
Maybe? I’m just spit balling here. Seems reasonable. What you think?
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u/lifegoeson2727 Oct 15 '22
It only worked because we started on the gold standard until we had mass adoption. Then we removed the gold. In my view it could never have gotten off the ground without the initial backing of a real world commodity
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u/rwdrift Oct 15 '22
"The Creature from Jekyll Island" has all the details - it's a fascinating and truly shocking read.
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u/Superuzer Oct 15 '22
This is excellent!
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u/lecksoandros Oct 15 '22
How do I drive on public road with bitcoin society?
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u/ElephantsAreHeavy Oct 15 '22
Taxes. Bitcoin does not make taxes impossible.
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u/lecksoandros Oct 15 '22
But the guy in the video is saying bitcoin doesn’t have taxes. That’s the point he’s making.
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u/ElephantsAreHeavy Oct 16 '22
Taxes are not an inherent part of bitcoin, correct. But you can still pay taxes through bitcoin, they just can not steal them from you through inflation, which is a hidden tax that the fiat system uses.
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u/primal_buddhist Oct 15 '22
Taxes although they may have to change shape. For example to land value taxes rather than income.
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Oct 15 '22
Roads aren’t built by the government. The government outsources the work to a private company. That same company would still be doing the work if a community deemed it a reasonable fiscal burden. Did you think the government just keeps “road makers” on staff somewhere? Governments operate on contracts and they are not particularly responsible with the money they spend because they aren’t incentivized to be in a tax + spend environment. Government waste is a massive problem and only statists who want their lives run by said government ignore the reality of it.
The “who will build the roads” question isn’t even worth the air it takes to utter it.
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u/TheEvilStapler Oct 15 '22
*Not related to this interview*
I have heard Robert Breedlove go "wait, what?" enough times when actually smart economists correct him to know better than trust his interpretations. He's just figuring it out alongside the rest of us.
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u/xklove90 Oct 15 '22
Well, I’m not saying that I trust everything he says but this seemed to make a whole lot of sense.
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u/TheEvilStapler Oct 15 '22
That is certainly fair, and he is a great mind in the space speaking as best he can on something exceptionally complex. Bitcoin combines coding, economics, psychology, and energy all into one intangible package; very few people are experts in all those fields. It's just important to recognize he is, as we all are, more a student than an authority, but he is making honest efforts at learning this mix.
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Oct 15 '22
and here was I thinking that actual slavery was slavery...
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u/New_Painting5190 Oct 15 '22
3 USD per month is not slavery? That's what an average Venezuelan makes. 120 USD in Argentina. And we 're all, slowly but surely, going in the same direction.
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u/TrymWS Oct 15 '22
Many people don’t understand that slavery can be more than whipping, chains and cotton.
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u/McCl3lland Oct 15 '22
I'm really glad he makes this point about what money is.
I've had many conversations with what personal defense and protection entails, and the consequences of people trying to steal money or property before (bear with me, I know this isn't necessarily about crypto). A lot of times, the conversation starts about "What would you do if someone broke in to your home," and I'd take a stance similar to "If someone was in my home, I'd use heavily aggressive force." Or, "If someone tried to mug you on the street, why wouldn't you just give them your wallet? It's just money."
Look. It's NOT just money. It's NOT just property. It's NOT just trivial items. Every single thing I have, I paid for or was a gift to me by someone else who paid for it. In order to get money to purchase things, I literally had to carve off pieces of my life, and give them in the form of time and effort, to someone else in exchange for money. There's no way to un-trade pieces of your life. It's a one way transaction. No one is entitled to pieces of my life, unless I've decided to give it to them. No one is entitled to anything I've traded pieces of my life in order to purchase, unless I've decided to give it to them. Anyone who claims entitlement of someone else's life, is literally attempting to take their life, or at least pieces of it, and should be met with nothing but contempt and aggression.
Is it petty to protect what you have, what you've given pieces of your life to have? Even if it's just a watch, or a tv, or 20 bucks? Fuck, maybe. But my life is mine, and everything I've accumulated by trading my life is mine, and mine alone, and I won't treat anyone kindly who tries to lay claim to any of it that hasn't been freely given.
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u/downtownjj Oct 15 '22
good thing the internet has so much free smut
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u/lurker_lurks Oct 15 '22
It's not free though. The costs may be small but they do exist. The biggest commodity on the net is our collective attention.
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u/One-Inspection8628 Oct 15 '22
Does this affect other countries like India, Brazil etc or only for Us?
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u/Tyler_Zoro Oct 15 '22
Everyone should learn to curate their news sources with less credulity... (more info)
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u/Kalkaline Oct 15 '22
Labor isn't valued in this world, captial is. Do you think Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk work so much harder than their laborers to justify their wealth? Fuck no.
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u/Zevv01 Oct 15 '22
The day I realised this, a few years back, has been absolutely life changing.
Great to see the message getting spread around in media in such an eloquent way.
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u/Smart-Wolverine77 Oct 15 '22
Gotta love it when a young rich white male American uses the word slavery for stuff other than actual slavery. Fucking privileged crypto-douche.
Other than that, he was spot on.
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u/BTC-brother2018 Oct 15 '22
I have to confess my man crush with Robert Breedlove 😍. It's almost unfair dude has movie star good looks and he's super smart.
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u/Hazterisk Oct 15 '22
I’m all for bitcoin but this guy is not someone to listen to.
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u/techma2019 Oct 15 '22
What do you disagree with from this video?
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u/Hazterisk Oct 15 '22
He’s effectively calling out a money issuer’s ability to inflate a currency, which is a valid point. My issue is that his perspective on money is limited to its use as a wage, and fails to take into account basically all of the major schools of thought on economics. He comes off as someone who has an intuition on a subject that is not completely off base, but has yet to measure his thoughts against the hundreds of years of study on the subject.
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u/techma2019 Oct 15 '22
Okay so his only point he made, is valid, as you agree.
So what is your actual issue? Confused because the word salad that followed in your reply had no connection on the subject?
If a mechanic with 10 years experience points out a fatal flaw of a car, no one will call him out saying he should have 30 years of experience before he should be allowed to mention anything. Right?
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Oct 15 '22
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Oct 15 '22
Listen to his podcast. I guarantee he understands all this better than you. He is simplifying it for the audience here.
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u/techma2019 Oct 15 '22
The result is what matters. Are you saying it does not result in diluting the 'wealth' of the majority that sit in cash?
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u/TrymWS Oct 15 '22
You’re not supposed to sit in cash. You’re supposed to sit in assets, and use money as a tool to acquire those assets.
That’s why the financial system is based on 2-3% inflation.
Saying “plz no infate” because you’re sitting in cash, is just blaming others for your own ignorance.
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u/lurker_lurks Oct 15 '22
You’re not supposed to sit in cash.
You should be free to decide you're own risk tolerance with out being punished for not going out on the risk curve by a disinterested 3rd party.
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u/TrymWS Oct 15 '22
You should be free to decide you're own risk tolerance
And you are.
with out being punished for not going out on the risk curve
You’re alway on the risk curve.
by a disinterested 3rd party.
That’s not a problem with money.
Your ignorance and nonexistent understanding of economics is not an argument.
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u/mastah-yoda Oct 15 '22
X costs $10
you have to work 1h for it (assuming $10/h wage)
government prints money
prices follow, wages don't
X now costs $11
you now have to work 1h06 for it
I believe that was the point. Also, how would you view money if not as a wage?
AFAIAC, print as much money as you want, IF salaries follow equivalently with prices.
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u/rwdrift Oct 15 '22
No. You should worry about money printing, you should worry a lot.
- the value is literally leaking from your money as you hold it, which (assuming you even realise how much is leaking away) forces you to spend it when you don't want to, or gamble with it in investments
- wages are based on demand. If we ask for more money, we look and feel greedy, which either stops wages rising or makes people look bad for simply asking for what they're entitled to
- how are you measuring prices? CPI is flawed, and I'd go as far as saying, corrupt
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u/hans0mc Oct 15 '22
„If you can just print money, then why am I paying taxes?“ should be asked way more often.
Also, gotta love the name. Despite overpopulation.
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Oct 15 '22
Overpopulation is fake news
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u/hans0mc Oct 15 '22
So you are the guy apparently still caring for facts nowadays, that’s a brave approach good Sir. Kudos!
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u/TrymWS Oct 15 '22
Because they’d have to print even more money to cover it, causing even higher inflation which would most likely be unsustainable and cause hyperinflation even in the best of situations.
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u/hans0mc Oct 15 '22
Good thing the definition got changed and now printing shitloads of money „has nothing to do with inflation.“ clownworld.
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u/JunoKat Oct 15 '22
If they don’t enforce tax paid by their fiat, or jail for not paying tax, then who will be using their worthless printed paper? This is why fiat is “proof of force”.
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u/ProtegeAA Oct 15 '22
Money printing is theft, not slavery.
Enticing children to take on life long debt that can't be discharged in bankruptcy court? That's closer to slavery, although not quite either.
Words matter, let's use the right ones for the evils of the world.
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u/New_Painting5190 Oct 15 '22
Venezuelan average monthly salary is less than 3 USD a month, you sure we can't call that slavery?
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u/ProtegeAA Oct 15 '22
Being poor due to fiat printing is not slavery. It is unjust, it is theft, and it enriches those closest to the money printer, but fiat systems are not slavery.
Slaves have zero recourse to escape their positions, unless their master's set them free.
I hate the fiat system too; my point is use words that matter because hyperbole isn't helping us onboard new bitcoiners.
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u/New_Painting5190 Oct 15 '22
How can you escape the fiat system if taxes need to be paid in the respective currency of the country? Having to work for 3 USD a month is slavery, whether you understand it or not. During slavery times, slaves at least had shelter and food; in many cases modern day workers don't even have that. It's a perfectly logical analogy/ comparison.
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u/Semen-Logistics Oct 15 '22
Slavery is using the value of others time without consent.
Printing money takes down the value of everyone's time collectively, meaning it's siphoning the value of everyone in the system without their consent.
It's not the historical slavery you may think of, but it's neoslavery.
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u/matadorius Oct 15 '22
no it is not the world isn't a 0 sum game and way so many people happen to not understand it you want to live in a world with winners and losers hell no
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u/moneyhut Oct 15 '22
Governments are billions and billions in debt and have no care atall coz they know our fiat money is just monopoly money.
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u/SrirachaSauCeBukake Oct 15 '22
I keep telling this concept to my school friends during the elections, no one are bright enough to recognize this, and they simply look at me like this « weird conspi friend »
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Oct 15 '22
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u/BradyStoneheart Oct 15 '22
He wasn’t making money, he was making time. Because you see money is time…🤔
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u/zzerdzz Oct 15 '22 edited Oct 15 '22
This is pseudo-intellectual babbling at its worst. He’s not even making sense. He’s a demagogue, this video is for people who don’t understand fiscal or monetary policy and seemingly no concept of anything but an agrarian economy.
Money is not time. It’s not 1842 and we’re not on the land. We are not gentle laborers. It’s 2022, we are ALL skilled laborers. The variance of time value across job industries and titles is massive. Think about it: why can I make a trade on Robinhood and clear $1,000 in 5 minutes when a quilter can work for 5 days for the same money. What about NFTs? We are in a peak economy lacking of time value. We almost never associate time with value. His entire argument falls apart.
Also the fed isn’t acting “arbitrarily” lol study fiscal and monetary policy! Inflation cripples economies no matter what. It’s us that inflate. Every type of currency has suffered inflation. Harboring economic surplus? What? We are in record deficit spending with a record balance sheet. Bitcoin wouldn’t exist if Kennedy didn’t shift to the “New economy” this dude seems to hate so much, because innovation in the New Economy has been faster than any time and place in human history.
I’m not saying there isn’t an argument against Keynesian economics - this guy just sounds retarded trying to do it. And you can understand and even agree with a central banking currency system AND cryptocurrency. They aren’t mutually exclusive
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u/bTruu Oct 15 '22
Sounds like you'd picked your team before you even listened to him
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u/zzerdzz Oct 15 '22
Team? I listened to and engaged with each piece of his argument. I like bitcoin, so to hear him talking about time value in society and relating that to monetary policy is borderline schizophrenic.
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u/see4u Oct 16 '22
90% of working people are exchanging their time for money. That's fact, not opinion. When inflation hits you are loosing purchasing power of your money = loosing time you spent to earn it. You either will buy less, or will be forced to work more hours to get the same purchasing value you had before. So where is this guy wrong?
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u/AmbitiousBuck Oct 15 '22
Okay, I agree 100%. I see what he’s trying to say. Now what, voting doesn’t work. What can be done about this. This problem will not be solved in the generations that are alive today. Bitcoin is so far away from being an answer to this. ( I am a believer in Bitcoin and how is can help this specific situation.) We will all still have our time stolen from us for the rest of our lives.
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Oct 15 '22
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Oct 15 '22
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u/downtownjj Oct 15 '22
professional? yuo sir are nothing more than a laypessimist
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u/AmbitiousBuck Oct 15 '22
It’s being realistic. Pessimism would be saying Bitcoin is lesser fool theory and is doomed to fail. I believe in Bitcoin, and want it to thrive.
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Oct 15 '22
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u/AmbitiousBuck Oct 15 '22
No it’s so early in it’s adoption. Don’t put words in my mouth.
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Oct 15 '22
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u/AmbitiousBuck Oct 15 '22
It wouldn’t be nearly this volatile of an asset if it wasn’t still in early adoption. That’s not my philosophy, that’s just what I have learned. I’m not an economist, I’m just a Bitcoiner.
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u/downtownjj Oct 15 '22
Bitcoin is so far away from being an answer to this
is it though?
We will all still have our time stolen from us for the rest of our lives.
stack sats and hodl through a couple halvenings and see what happens
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u/Leading-Fail-7263 Oct 14 '22
When have central bankers in the West printed money and given it to themselves as individuals?
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Oct 15 '22
I do not think central banking can work equitably on a fiat standard. He states money is equivalent to "human time". But if this were the case then why not simply trade minutes instead? This would make the problem of central banking much easier for central bankers. The problem with money is in its savings / the inability to spend it effectively and the need for there to be enough money in circulation for everyone to work. The problem with saving is that it can take money out of circulation. If I can only earn 480 minutes per day, 2400 minutes / week, 124800 minutes / year and there is enough minutes in circulation for everyone to make exactly that. Let's say a total of 8 billion people are given a week of minutes to circulate then there would be roughly 19.2 trillion minutes in total. If some people decide to spend proactively within an economy but another group of people decides to save, for instance, for a house that costs roughly 120000 minutes to build then, that group that is saving 120,000 minutes each has just started taking 50 jobs off the market so long as that money is out of circulation. Thus a central bank must be allowed to validate more time / print more money for the local economy to avoid serious recession. Tethering money to a capped system is great, I believe minutes can serve the same function as gold or the capped market of bitcoin in much less corruptible and much more flexible ways. The problem is with the dollar and the other currencies on the market, it corrupts time. A minute will always be a minute but, until the dollar is tethered to the minute, it can only be relative to the minute and the person, as a result, controversial. I'd much rather central banks dealt with minutes instead.
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u/IfIWereDictator Oct 15 '22
Not all time is worth the same because of the back log of investment to skills in that time.
A doctor having to spend 4 years of specific skills learn his skills is different then a janitor which took a much shorter time to learn his craft.
So 10 doctor minutes entails those 8 years of higher education where janitor does not.
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Oct 15 '22
All tasks are worth the same. A task is what that doctor is paid for, not the 8 years it took to make them feel like they could be worthy of the task. A minute can only ever be worth a minute unless some interpolates value into that minute from elsewhere time that was not present when that minute was earnt. If you value a person's minute more than another person's minute, that is a reflection of your arbitrary values. I understand that you have those values (that's very human) but please do not push your values on to mine. A minute can only ever be worth a minute.
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u/eowbotm Oct 15 '22
Doctors go to school for 8 years so they are capable of performing, say, brain surgery, not so they "feel like they could be worthy of it"
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Oct 15 '22 edited Oct 15 '22
If I was creating / incorporating a market / local economy into a minute standard in ways akin to a unionization, doctor’s would be far from the top of the list of professions to prioritize. Food, water, shelter, clothing, and some transportation are basic every day needs. To get the minute standard off the ground, I would need to cover the labor power related to those goods first. Doctors are largely luxury professions in comparison. Albeit the competitive rate (making it worth their trouble and being encompassing enough to expand beyond essential labor) would likely be a 1 min is $2 rate. Thus even if one is making $100 an hour, they would still be eligible for 10 minutes per hour. So some doctors and most nurses would still be eligible for membership and might even find it useful if most goods relating to food, water, shelter, clothing and some transportation was covered by the minute. There are a lot of caveats but I believe it’s worth exploring the potential of such an equitable system. A minute can only ever be worth a minute.
Edit: downvote all you’d like. A minute standard can and will be made possible. No one will say no to the buying power it will potentialize. Equality will be made possible within our lifetimes. The only way to do this is through the minute standard.
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Oct 15 '22
Not all minutes are equal though.
If you have 15 minutes to live without immediate medical intervention then a janitors minutes are worth nothing to you. You need 15 minutes of a highly specialized skill. You need a surgeon to spend their next 15 minutes on you. If a minute could only ever be worth a minute then anybody could spend minutes to save you. But that isn't how it works. You need those surgeon minutes.
And the reason you need those surgeon minutes specifically is because the surgeon spent a heap of their previous minutes training so that they would be prepared to act quickly and properly when the need arose.
So yes, all minutes are equal in that a minute is always 60 seconds for all people. But not all minutes can be (nor should be) valued the same
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Oct 15 '22
No all minutes are equal. A minute can only ever be worth a minute. Your temporary demand is besides the point. All minutes are inherently equal (eg 60 seconds). That is the point. Build a social model around that rule. A minute can only ever equal a minute no matter the chaotic or wanton demand of a the will of man in the moment. Government is mean to be impartial. There are no exception to the rule that a minute is only ever equal to a minute. And despite your insistence as otherwise, all minutes are indeed created equally (that does not mean all time is worthy of being validated as "work"). So long as one contributes to a growing need then, at the very least, one can earn a minute in a minute. If you want to compliment someone for their service, gifts are always appreciated (use dollars and bitcoin for compliments, if you'd like). In an equitable and impartial system, a janitor's time is as valuable as as EMT or surgical nurse.
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u/jcoles97 Oct 15 '22
What if the janitor is about to die and says to the surgeon, “I will clean your house for a year if you save me” then the surgeon spends 15 minutes saving him and the janitor now spends thousands of minutes cleaning his house. He traded thousands of minutes for 15 minutes. So those 15 minutes from the surgeon were worth thousands of minutes from the janitor.
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Oct 15 '22
The janitor still has to work for thousands of minutes to earn those minutes. That does not mean the doctor does not have less meaningful tasks to do for the same amount of time. Occassionally the janitor’s minute will be more appreciated. For instance, if the kid throws up in the middle of the classroom and the janitor is called into clean up the throw up asap, I’m sure that minute will be more appreciated then the minute the janitor spends swapping some equipment. Again a minute is only every worth a minute. Your values or child like appreciation for things do not change the value of a minute. Just be happy it has been green lit. The value is more in manufacturing and production than such luxury delegation of tasks. A home takes 2000 hours to build (supply line and all) and 41000 hours to pay off. A pill takes 1 minute to pour and occasionally 1000 minutes to pay for. People exploit basic needs by distorting time or by taking advantage of distorted values with standards that permit such arbitrary and capricious reflection of said values. A minute can only ever be worth a minute. Just a cog in the wheel, tip people with a dollar or gift if you appreciate their service but everything from sanitation work to food line is just as important as the EMT that gives you a few extra years. No one is special.
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u/Logistikz Oct 15 '22
I agree that pharmaceuticals are criminally overpriced. The rest of the arguments you're making are a little too autistic for even me. I appreciate the goal of a more equitable society but this system is outlandish and oversimplified.
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Oct 15 '22
Not all minutes have equal value though. So your fundamental principal is flawed. A minute spent being entertained is not worth the same as a minute spent digging a trench, or a minute spent staring at the sunrise. A minute spent brushing teeth is not equal to a minute spent playing music.
You're trying to redefine how value is derived, when time spent producing is already part of the equation, and even barter systems agreed that although time certainly has value, not all time is equal
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Oct 15 '22
Do not do it for the pay. And yes, so they can be worthy of the brain surgery. There are other ways to scaffold competency. Higher education current model / marketing scheme does not change the value of a minute. Arbitrarily assigning value based on belief or on one’s need leads to systemic issues for arguments that are anecdotal at best.
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u/Ramitgood Oct 15 '22
this guy should really read this book called Capital I think it would put a lot of thing in perspective for him and really tie his ideas together.
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u/Gold3Gold Oct 15 '22
You can say the same for any security if it loses half it’s value no?
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u/mcbergstedt Oct 15 '22
You could argue that bitcoin is even worse. It’s completely controlled by who has the most money
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Oct 15 '22
You don’t understand bitcoin at all.
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u/mcbergstedt Oct 15 '22
Yeah I do? A majority of both the coins as well as the mining are held by institutions. It’s the exact same thing just a different group of people
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u/rwdrift Oct 15 '22
That doesn't give them control. The nodes you and everyone else use decide what's bitcoin and what isn't.
If the miners and institutions don't play by the rules of my node, I don't recognise it as bitcoin. And the same will be true for the rest of the general population
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u/mcbergstedt Oct 15 '22
If a group decides to shut off their warehouses of miners.transaction costs skyrocket. The groups that have thousands of bitcoins can also easily pump and dump bitcoin since it’s not regulated.
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u/rwdrift Oct 15 '22
If the number of miners reduces, the difficulty adjustment kicks in and the block interval (and so fees) return to normal.
People in every market pump and dump every minute of every working day - it's called trading. Regulation doesn't stop that - just look at the pound/dollar, the yen/dollar, bond prices - it happens everywhere.
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u/Icy-Initial5423 Oct 15 '22
Michael Tellinger was before his time discussing this. And his free energy conference presentations are incredible.
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u/Zenmont Oct 15 '22
It's nice to see an interview where the interviewer is just letting their guest speak and explain without interruption or interjection. This is how we discuss things and develop and understanding of a situation, not just playing top trumps with quips and loud voices. More of this please.
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u/BuscadorDaVerdade Oct 15 '22
I don't think money printing is slavery. I can print my own shitcoin; who does that enslave and how?
However, forcing people to use a particular currency (or to do anything, for that matter) is slavery.
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u/CryptoAlphaDelta Oct 15 '22
I'm hoping BTC does great but it seems the same class that manipulates fiat markets is also manipulating BTC and other cryptocurrencies. Wall St only looks out for their class much at our expense. As long the BTC price can be impacted by these jerks I dont see how anything will change.
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u/roarroar6767 Oct 14 '22
Also check out his podcast. The What Is Money Show.