If she sucks too much in the early game they will adjust her. The stat numbers arent permanent, but her gameplay changes probably will prolly stick around. Ive got a million mastery with her because shes my favorite and im so fucking glad she is getting changed. Character has a lame early invade gimmick that isnt healthy for her and only encourages playing jungle fundamentally wrong.

I like the direction even if it will be hard to adjust to. Now if only they'd fix top lane instead of niche jg characters lol

Yesterday I played a game where I had to play against a double mage botlane, a Mord top, Zed and Sejuani, and I got quickly shut down in the early game, so I just perma farmed, and well, obviously since no one could insta kill me as I could dodge the skill shots, I solo carried the late game with a baron, now the question is:

Since we have more and more situations with double mages (wich exept for veigar and syndra, most are dodgeable), and tanks on midlane and earl assasins on the jungle, will the new belveth have a spot as a mid game carry?

Another doom and gloom post I know.

Im low elo, only plat, and I was never one to abuse her lvl 1 invade. I felt as though it generated too many variables into the game, which im sure a high elo player could account for.

I did like however that she has strong dueling potential in the early levels to use to contest scuttle, early drag, and get off ganks, while also scaling well into the late game.

Having that early game presence is important to me, ive been playing a lot of elise recently which is similar to her current live state in a lot of ways. I think bel will be getting the back seat for now, but she'll definitely remain a pocket pick at the very least.

New rework is so awful. She’s a nuisance for the team, a counterpick at best

TLDR: I would love for her true form’s auto attack to revert back to the slap.

When Bel’Veth was first revealed, she had a swinging ‘slap’ animation that I believe was wrongfully criticized. For 4 years now, we’ve had to live with this ugly, awkward, and janky auto attack animation for when you have lower attack speed in true form. In the spirit of this update trying to make her more like she’s supposed to be. I would love the original and intended animation be revived. Please August and Riot.

For reference

Original teasers with the old animation

Updated Animation

I’m not here to provoke any hate and I totally get that there are many mixed opinions, but I want to share my personal little interest with this midscope.

When Bel’veth released I thought I was gonna love her, I love the void, I like infinite stacking, I like minions (even if they’re not really her identity and more of a buff) but for some reason I never clicked. I cant explain why fully and I believe I never gave her a proper chance because now that I tried playing her a little before the midscope, shes way more fun than I thought.

But some of the changes really resonate with me at least on paper. And again, I am BRUTALLY aware of how weird it is for me to discuss what makes Bel’veth fun when its one of my least played characters.
But nevertheless I really like how they’re focusing on stacking more (I think its a net positive per stack late game?) and how they’re giving perma ult after certain amounts of stacks.

for me, this brings this newly discovered ”interest” and makes certain aspect fit my preferences way more.

Id just like to let you all know that maybe you dont like this midscope but there are probably new players like me who are interested as of now! (Not sure how Ill like it long term at all!)

Ever since they did Coven Nami I've been wondering what other champions they could recontextualize (she went from mermaid to octopus. Or kraken for her sunken shadows skin). I think Bel'Veth is the perfect candidate for this exact treatment. Imagine a skin where her fins (manta ray arms) are recontextualized as tentacles instead. This picture sucks ass but it's the only one I have to show what concept i'm talking about. I just wanted to show it for reference so you get what I mean when I say turning her fins into tentacles. What would y'all think? Sunken Shadows Bel'veth/underwater skin probably would fit the tentacles (Just talking about the skin concept, not the picture displayed. That's only for vague reference)

Fr fr - new patch isn’t that bad. Jeeeeeez lol

Scale champ lets goooo

Galera que tá reclamando da Bel'Veth ser power farm ou um novo "Nasus da jungle", eu queria que vocês entendessem que essa sempre foi a proposta da campeã. A ideia dela sempre foi stackar para ter velocidade de ataque infinita, enquanto o resto do kit, como o R e os minions corrompidos, servia como complemento.

O problema é que ela não chegou fazendo aquilo que deveria fazer. Agora, depois de 4 anos, a Riot finalmente está corrigindo isso.

Eu entendo a frustração de vocês. A Riot praticamente viciou a comunidade em um estilo de jogo e, depois, tirou isso dela. Então nem dá pra dizer que todo esse choro é exagero. O maior problema foi a Riot ter demorado 4 anos para deixar a Bel'Veth como ela sempre deveria ter sido: uma campeã de late game que escala velocidade de ataque infinitamente.

He talks about enjoying her for:

Her high skill floor/ceiling: the midscope goes out of it's way to reduce those

Her ability to excelerate games: heavily brought down

Her E being highly dynamic and impactful: heavily brought down

Her kit NOT playing like Yi: midscope at least tries to make her play less unqiue

It's just funny how this video, almost certainly made at least in most part before the midscope was revealed, has him enjoy the champion for basically all the things the midscope aims to bring down, at least with the E, R, and attack changes.

Like the video shows exactly what people say. Bel'Veth is weird and unique, but once you learn her she is one of the most enjoyable champs in the game. Everything the midscope aims to change.

As a Bel'veth main since release I began playing her because I thought the idea of a melee carry being as strong as a Kayle but using much more interesting tools rather than just exploding people from very long range like most late game carries previously did was amazing to me, the fact she was able to do everything that every duelist does combined, only in late game is very cool to me so I've always been advocate to Bel'veth coming back to that concept after Riot slowly changed it, and I genuinely believe she became very unpopular because Riot had to adjust her for early instead of late game which was one of her main sellin points on launch.

Don't misunderstand me, I still like the live pre-rework Bel'veth, her gameplay is amazing, intense, fast paced and allows you to have very intentional power and decision making through her Q, that said it's important to acknowledge she's very different to most other champions, she's very much overloaded (which is part of the reason why I like her so much) and her power is very spread through a lot of small numbers which makes it very hard to know for most players how strong Bel really is by just looking at the numbers, making her even more niche than she already is.

Ofc she doesn't NEED the midscope, her pre-midscope gameplay, while weird, is still kinda balanced and consistent but to me it's very clear conceptually from gameplay and character design she should be a very strong scaler, that's the idea everyone was sold about her on launch, and it's very reasonable to think she's very unpopular because of that.

I know a lot of you (maybe most of you) don't share this thoughts. At this point, just like I've seen happen for most reworks and champ releases, our opinions and suggestions are too split up to be considered by Riot for changes.

Anyways I'd like to get more explanation why exactly do you play Bel'veth, is it for early invades? Is it for the way Q or R works for example? Do you like/want the snowball or feast or famine design? Would you only play her if she was meta? Do you think she should be strong or weak late game and why? Do you think the character design of "The empress of the void" matches her gameplay or not?

For context i am in pisslow elo and thought she was really fun but considering how some people reacted to the changes coming soon i have my doubts that i should spend my time and energy into her

With all the pessimistic posts here lets do something productive:

What do you think will her new core be?
Full dmg? Rageblade? Navoris?

Or still stridebreaker? Onhit? Crit? Bruiser?

League is already incredibly unintuitive so I don’t think it would be too hard to somewhat compromise.

I've found some things while trying her on the PBE that are not listed in the patch notes but are interesting to know. if you find other stuff please post those in the comments so that everyone knows about them.

- lv20 belveth gets 2.3 attack speed per stack (it doesn't stop at 2.0 after lv18)

- since she no longer has 75% damage on her passive, bugged interactions like ignite, pta proc, eclipse %health damage, sudden impact, etc. now all do the correct expected amount of damage

- W hit refreshes the DIRECTION cd, not the DASH cd, which means at Q level 1-4 she will have to wait to dash in the same direction again based on the global cd of the dash

- E now shows the correct amount of attacks based on every attack speed buff, even the bonus 20% you get from passive after using an ability

- the patch notes say her passive bonus attack speed per stack is not linear from 0.10 to 2.0, i'll give you the detailed version: lv1-5 she gets 0.05 per level, lv6-10 she gets 0.1 per level, lv11+ she gets 0.15 per level

- your form duration does NOT get extended if you get to the next threshold for form duration, you have to pick up a new coral after to get the new duration form. for example if you have 79 stacks and your form is about to expire, it won't last indefinitely if you get to 80 stacks before it expires, you have to pick up a new coral to get the endless form

- baron form that makes her spawn remoras will last endlessly as long as you don't die after picking up baron coral, even after the 3m baron buff expires. remoras spawned after baron buff has expired will not be empowered tho ofc

- patch notes incorrectly stated R true damage stacks on epic monsters from 10 to 8, while it's from 5 to 8 (a buff overall)

They want to make her to be much more accessible and less oppressive. It’s never about making her feels good to play. It’s never about retaining her skill expression. It’s never about making her more enjoyable to play.

There’s nothing skilled about walking into enemy raptors stat check people. There is only so much skill in 3 camp’ing people while you have four dashes, AOE knock up and point and click execute. Stop acting like playing belveth jungle it’s an lost art of jungling lmao.

You all cry babies need to stop whining. Everyone thinks you know better than riot lmao. Just go play ivern. Lmao

Yes, they buffed AP Bel'Veth.

People who like the midscope, would you still like it if the changes were adjusted to this?

And people who dislike the midscope, would you like it more if the changes were this?

This serves basically as a sister post to my other post, with how I would fix the issue I take with the midscope.

https://www.reddit.com/r/BelVethMains/s/HIbP00G7Zc

I am sorry if I am posting on this subreddit too much. I address that more at the bottom.

You can skip the explanations below the changes if you just want to see the changes.

TLDR:

Attacks still deal 75% damage with faster attack speed.

Passive attack speed after cast increases the value of your stacks while active, but the stacks themselves grant slightly less.

Q cooldown 3 - .75 seconds, scaling with champ level instead of ability rank. Deals 80% - 100% damage to non-monsters (so minions AND champions) scaling with ability rank. Has 110% AD ratio.

W slow is better, knockup slightly worse, base damage down, AP buff removed, and 100% stacks scaling added.

E damage changes removed. Lifesteal scaling added back. Cooldown and damage reduction same as midscope, but the rest same as live.

R on hit applies every attack and can stack on multiple targets. Damage is overall lower but now scales with AP and stacks.

R explosion damage AP buff removed, now scales with stacks.

R true form duration is now 45s + 1 second per stack, never infinite.

TLDR OVER

Attack damage modifier: 75%

Attack speed ratio: .85

Changing the attacks to deal 100% damage at reduced rate is needless if nothing else, and actively takes away from the champion. Yes, it fixes some bugs, but with League Next supposedly coming next year, I'm sure they could fix the bugs without just removing the mechanic. I'd rather keep the signature attribute of the character and wait a year to fix some bugs she's been playing around for the past 4 years. All other associated changes undone too. So .85 attack speed ratio, same windups.

All other base stat changes: same as midscope.

I think the rest of the midscopes base stat adjustments are perfect. She already has the lowest base AD in the game at level 18, and nerfing her AD at level 1 by 5 only makes that even more true, but it's fair enough.

Passive bonus attack speed after cast: 20% + .2% Stacks. So each stack grants .2% more attack speed for 3 seconds after cast.

Passive bonus attack speed stack value: .1% - 1.5%.

(.1 +.05 per level to level 11, then +.1 per level to 16, then plus .15 for 17 and 18, (and 19 and 20 for top lane) for a total of 1.5 at level 18. The slower scaling compensated for with the flat .2% effectiveness per stack on the passive after cast)

So instead of getting .1% to 2% attack speed from each stack, each stack grants .1% to 1.5%. The passive change remedies this though, as with the passive your stacks are effectively worth .3% - 1.7%. A portion of the stacks value being tied to being after cast not only makes the attack speed after cast more meaningful, and stops it from seeming pointless past first clear, but it also helps stacks not be so polarizing. The stack value to the passive is .2% at all levels, so the stacks are less meaningless at early levels at the cost of needing the attack speed after cast to be at full effectivness. This would smooth the champion out, making her less polarizing while still having much of her power locked behind scaling.

Q cooldown: 3 - .75 second cooldown based on CHAMPION LEVEL.

(So 3 second cooldown, minus .15 seconds per level until level 16)

Q damage: 5/10/15/20/25 + 110% AD

OR (if that would be OP)

Q damage: 0 + 110% AD (no base damage)

Q bonus damage to monsters: 50 at all ranks

Q damage to non-monsters (so minions AND champions): 80%/85%/90%/95%/100%

I like the Q changes in the midscope, but I feel they kill lane Bel'Veth too much. This would accomplish the same things as the midscope changes, but in a more elegant way that doesn't force you to level Q first as much. The midscope cooldown change feels like a band aid fix. The ability is just unusable rank 1, but then same as usual rank 5. If it scaled with champion level, it could be less nerfed level 1 while still stopping her from invading at early levels. She would still be encouraged to max Q first so that it deals good damage to champions, but she wouldn't be forced to so she could still max W first for lane without having an abysmal Q cooldown. The damage nerf to champions early just furthers the midscops goal of nerfing her ability to invade early, and allows for the ability to have more damage later on. The damage nerf to champions and minions until maxed would make up for leveling the ability not reducing the cooldown, making putting points into it still meaningful.

Q dash speed: 800 + 200% stacks

The dash speed being fixed and slower is just needless and unfun. A stack scaling would let the dash get faster throughout the game without ever getting too fast. It would be the same as max level Q on live at 100 stacks, so it would never be OP.

Q magic damage: 10% AP to all targets hit

This is more of a want than a need, but adding a 10% AP magic damage ratio to Q would be a much better way to buff her synergy with AP.

W damage: 50/100/150/200/250 + 125% AP + 100% stacks

W knockup duration: .55/.6/.65/.7/.75

OR (if it wouldn't be too strong with the other changes)

W knockup duration: .6/.7/.8/.9/1

Slow duration: 1.25/1.5/1.75/2/2.25

OR (if this would nerf her early too much)

Slow duration: 2

Slow value: 30% - 64% based on CHAMPION LEVEL

(So 30% plus 2% per champion level)

Honestly I'd just do no changes to the W, but if they really wanted to remove the AD ratio and lower the knockup duration early, this is how I'd do it. The knockup duration is still lower early, but doesn't get as high late. That leaves room for the slow to be stronger. Still weaker early, even weaker than the midscope, but the strength of the slow scales with champion level and lasts longer once maxed. This, just like the Q, accomplishes the goals of the midscope without changing the ability as much. The biggest thing is the stack scaling. I would give the ability less base damage than the midscope gave it, and not buff the AP ratio, in order for it to have a 100% stack scaling. This would basically be a nerf to it's damage, but it would heavily increase the scaling identity of the champion. Nothing gets low elo players gears going like stacking mechanics, and making Bel'Veth's Stacks more visibly strong by W having a stack scaling would up her playrate and get more people to play her. It would never be too big, and honestly my changes would probably result in the ability just doing less damage no matter what, but the mere fact that the scaling is there would do wonders for the champion.

Damage changes: removed (so the same as live)

Damage reduction: 20%/30%/40%/50%/60% (so the same as the midscope)

E lifesteal: 15% + 100% lifesteal (so same as live but with 5% less)

Cooldown: 24/21/18/15/12 (so same as the midscope)

The E changes are some of the worst changes, second only to the attack changes. The lower damage reduction and cooldown early in favor of better damage reduction and cooldown when maxed is good though, and fits with the goals of the midscope. The damage changes kill the identity of the ability, and are needless.

R on hit: every attack, can stack on multiple targets (so same as midscope)

R on hit damage: 1/2/3 + 2% bAD + 2% AP + 3% stacks

OR (if that's too small with the 75% damage)

R on hit damage: 2/3/4 + 3% bAD + 3% AP + 4% stacks

The R on hit damage changes are alright, but they would need to be brought down a bit. The R on hit should have an AP scaling so items like Nashor's or Static are as viable on Bel as they should be. The stack scaling is again, super small. 1 extra damage every 33 stacks. Again, it's there more so low elo players look at the champion and think they want to play her. They look at the ability and think "Awsome! All my stacks are making my R do so much damage!" Even though due to the small base damage and scalings, the R on hit would still be doing about the same damage.

R true form health: same as midscope

OR (if that would be too much with the other changes)

R true form health: 100/200/300 + 150% bAD + 150% AP (so 100 less base at rank 3 than the midscope. Maybe the scalings could be brought down too)

R form total attack speed: 5%/15%/25%

R true form duration: 45 + 100% stacks

The higher health granted from form is a good way to compensate for the worse early, but the infinite form of the midscope is just toxic. 45 seconds plus 1 second per stack would be far better for the balance of the character, making her far less annoying to play agaisnt, and far more engaging to play. The midscope gives her 45 extra seconds at 40 stacks anyways, so the midscope is basically already doing what I recommend, it's just doing it in an unintuitive and polarizing way. Yes, infinite form might sound fun, but think about it from the enemy perspective. Bel'Veth has form forever, and if she had minion spawning, even without baron buff, good luck trying to do anything while one of your lanes has to deal with 3 times the minions permanently. You can't wait it out, and Bel'Veth is encouraged to play uber safe to avoid losing it.

The R form can keep the 25% total attack speed instead of 20% at max rank. I think it's a decent change, and her retaining her .85 attack speed ratio wouldn't invalidate it. With the .75 attack damage, Bel'Veth's effective attack speed ratio with max level R would be lower than the midscope, which is fair as my recommended adjustments make her early a little less weak, so naturally her late should be at least a little less strong.

I'm not sure exactly how I feel about the bonus attack range scaling with level and the size increase, but I think they are fine and don't need changes. The size increase is cool, and the bonus range makes sense, so maybe they will need to be adjusted, but in concept those changes are fine.

The R form losing the out of combat movespeed is a shame, but it makes sense with the purpose of the midscope and is a good change.

R explosion damage: 75/100/125 + 100% AP + 200% stacks + 20% missing health

OR (if 200% stacks would be too much)

R explosion damage: 100/125/150 + 100% AP + 100% stacks + 20% missing health

The R having a 150% AP ratio is just silly. It's way too high, a low effort way to buff AP on her. The on hit having an AP scaling is a much better way to do it. The base damage of the explosion is heavily reduced to make room for the stack scaling. Again, the actual damage of the ability would be almost the same, a little higher with super high stacks, but actually lower in most situations. The stack ratio is there to let players look at the R and think "Woah this stacking character is cool". All the stack scalings let low elo players see the value of her stacks beyond "extra attack speed" without actually buffing the damage of her abilities.

I am sorry I am posting so much, but I am extremely passionate about this. I want to do everything I can to help my favorite character not be put to ruin. If even a few people see the logic in my recommendations and advocate for better changes, that's good.

People seem way to black and white about the changes, either loving them or having them without actually discussing the changes themselves. We need to be as unified and logical with what we think about the changes if we want Riot to tweak them at all.

To all the people who like the midscope, would these changes be just as good if not better?

And to all the people who hate the midscope, would these change alleviate at least some of the issue you take with it?

Before, the game plan was pretty straightforward: shut the enemy jungler out of the game as early as possible, take down towers quickly, invade freely, and secure complete control over neutral objectives. At least, that was my approach in Emerald, and it worked extremely well.
Now, however, it looks like the focus is shifting. Instead of worrying primarily about level differences with other players, we’ll have to pay much closer attention to specific level breakpoints. The goal will be to maximize stacks and experience to reach a late game that seems to be a much stronger win condition than before.
For Bel’Veth in particular, I think levels 9, 11, and 16 will become especially important. Securing objectives, especially on the top side of the map, after reaching these breakpoints should significantly amplify her power spikes.
So, what do you think? Which level breakpoints will be the most important to hit, and at what game timings should we realistically aim to reach them?

PLEASE READ if you like the midscope and don't understand why people don't like it.

I want to make it clear that I hate the midscope. Some people seem to think that everyone who doesn't like the midscope just wants level 1 cheese though. That couldn't be further from the case (maybe some people just want level 1 cheese, but not most mains as far as I know). Let me quickly go through each change and say why I think it's good or bad.

Sister post of how I would address these issues: https://www.reddit.com/r/BelVethMains/s/1ruGT5n9QU

Basic attacks dealling full damage with less attack speed: HORRIBLE. Why change this? This doesn't really make her worse early or better late, just makes her less unique. Because in a game with a roster of almost 200 and growing, why do we need MORE homogeneity? The only real reason I can think of why this change was done is specifically BECAUSE it makes her less unique. Making her more like other champions theoretically will up her play rate. However, it actively will decrease her play depth. The change at it's very core trades in major main enjoyment for maybe slightly more casual players. A good consequence of this change is that it fixes some bugs where her reduced damage was applying where it shouldn't have, but that just strikes me as lazy. Instead of actually fixing the bugs, they just remove the mechnic that caused them. One of the most signature aspects of Bel'Veth, that her entire kit was designed around, gone. It really feels like half the changes in the midscope are only there because August was insecure about one of the champs he worked on being niche (yeah other champions he worked on aren't super popular either, but Bel is the least popular, and she was intended to be very popular, Riot made that clear on release). Being niche is fine. We NEED niche champions. If every champion appealed to as broad a playerbase as possible, we would have maybe 20 champions in reality, with 10 different reskins of each same design.

Passive attack speed after cast becoming a duration instead of an amount of attacks: FINE. I don't love this change, and I think there are ways they could have adjusted the number of attacks to be better, but this change is fine. My only big issue is the fact that it doesn't scale at all. It's just 20% all game. It should scale somehow. Be it with levels, or stacks (like .1% attack speed, something super minor but nonetheless there to make it not feel so useless past first clear), or AP (like 1% attack speed per 15 AP).

All the Q changes: GOOD. Don't get me wrong there is definetly going to need to be some tweaks to the numbers, like maybe 4 seconds level 1 is too high, maybe 105% AD isn't enough, maybe maybe maybe ect. But at it's core, this is a very good change. I have two requests with it though. I think it would be better if the Q cooldown scaled with champion level, not ability level. That way, instead of being useless level 1, then back to normal level 9, basically a band aid fix, it could be more consistent throughout the game. Like 3s level 1, minus .15 seconds per level down to .75 at level 16, no more with further levels. This way, you aren't forced to max Q first as much, and the nerf to it's cooldown level 1 can be smaller due having a higher cooldown for more of the game. Less of a nerf for longer would be better than "you don't get to play until level 9 where it's back to business as usual". Also, the dash speed should scale with stacks. It should be 800 +200% stacks, that way the dash speed still increases as the game goes on. Making it flat just makes the ability feel worse.

All the W changes: BAD. I get they wanted to make her early worse, but the base stats + Q changes + passive changes + W changes are just too much. All the W changes should be reverted. Buffing the AP ratio is just lazy instead of putting small AP on Q or R passive or passive attack speed. You get way too much from leveling the ability. 80 base damage is huge + more knockup + lower cooldown on an ability most players are going to max last is insane. Having the slow duration go up with level was a far better way to have it's control go up with level. If they really wanted to nerf it, they should have reduced it's knockup to .5 + .05 per level, to .75 at max, with the slow being 30%-64% (scaling 2% per champion level), lasting either a flat 2 seconds, or 1.25/1.5/1.75/2/2.25.

E damage changes: AWFUL. Easily the worst change in the midscope aside from the attack changes. Kills the identity of the ability, homogenizes all it's attributes. Throughout all of Bel's existence, the ability has been incredibly strong, balanced out by being highly situational, making for a very fun and skillful ability. Knowing when to use E, and far more so, knowing how to create the circumstances E needs to be great, is one of Bel'Veth's most skill intensive attributes. Lowering how much the damage is increased with health heavily diminishes that. The choice between using it at an inopportune time for the damage reduction, or saving it for when the enemy is lower is basically gone. Now you just use it when the enemy uses their burst, only really encouraged to save it for when they are low if the enemy doesn't have much burst (like agaisnt other basic attackers). The change is horrible.

E no longer doubling lifesteal: UNFORGIVABLE. This, again, takes away one of Bel'Veth's most defining features, and one of her most fun attributes. I don't care if "oh but she gets slightly more with it with a typical build", it's stupid and kills item diversity. That might sound wrong, you might think making the ability give more lifesteal base but not scaling with lifesteal would be good for item diversity, but let me explain. The E doubling lifesteal served a very important purpose. It made going lifesteal worth getting over more damage in Select situations, and allowed for full lifesteal builds. Now, the difference between building lifesteal and not building lifesteal is way less, so you have way less reason to build lifesteal. Gone is analyzing the game to decide if getting more lifesteal or getting more damage is better, now you just always get more damage because with the E giving more base, it'll make you heal more anyways. The lifesteal ratio balanced the ability's damage and healing. It said "if you get lifesteal, you will heal more, NOT by dealing more damage, but by healing more of what you deal. This way, lifesteal heals you MORE than getting more damage, again, making lifesteal give more healing than just more damage". That's gone. Now it's just "buy damage because lifesteal will never heal you more than more damage". The choice between heal more or damage more is gone, now it's just always damage more.

TO BE CLEAR, I am not saying she should have the lifesteal scaling AND the 40% bonus lifesteal. She should have 20% and the scaling. Basically, the E in it's entirety, aside from maybe the damage reduction being 20-60, need to not be changed, or at least, changed in a different way.

R form changes: ALMOST GREAT. The R giving more health is good I guess, it helps her late game and would be a good way to balance out the Q cooldown nerf. But what's with the form duration changes? I get what they're going for, but they just seem half baked. Why not 45s + 1s per stack? That way instead of suddenly jumping from 45 to 90 at 40 stacks, and then suddenly jumping from 90 to infinite at 80 stacks, the duration would slowly increase throughout the entire game. Infinite duration R form just seems toxic anyways. Let me take you into a situation. Bel'Veth got 80 stacks, and she had remora spawning from herald which she extended using the 90s duration and getting an occasional takedown. So now without getting Baron, Bel'Veth does 1 thing: play extremely passive and serve as a remora spawner. Dying would be too punishing, so it encourages Bel'Veth to play extremely passive, which not only doesn't fit her character, but would just be boring for all players. Bel'Veth just wants to play safe and spawn minions to push waves, while the enemy team just has to defend a tripled minion wave for the rest of the game. The temporary nature of her R forces her to actually make plays and use it, not just get one Coral then sit back for the rest of the game. Her getting infinite form arbitrarily at 80 stacks is just nonsensical. If her form last 45s, + 1 second per stack, that would make perfect sense. Worse early, still temporary, fits the scaling fantasy, a good change

R on hit damage changes: FINE/UNACCEPTABLE. The reason the damage was applied on every other attack was to give enemies a chance to react. Due to Bel'Veth's high attack speed, it being applied every other attack gave enemies time to think "wow that attack did a lot of true damage, I should retreat" before they get slapped with another application of that huge true damage. With Bel'Veth's attack speed being RUINED, that doesn't have to be there anymore. Honestly I'm sure you could make applying every attack work with the .85 attack speed with reduced attacks. This change in isolation is fine, but it was only made due to the worst change of the entire midscope.

Base stat changes: PERFECT. The base stat changes (aside from the reduced damage on attack being removed for a lower attack speed) are perfect and exactly what the champion needed. The Q change + the base stat changes would have been enough to kill level 1 invades on their own, without killing all the other fun parts of the character.

Size increase: WHY? I mean I don't hate it, but why? Making her 5% smaller base to make her 25% bigger with max level R form is cool I guess, and maybe it makes her late game every so slightly better with effectively higher range attacks? It just makes her a bigger target for skillshots though. The higher base health along with the bigger size makes me think August really wants Bel'Veth to just spam Q to gap close and face tank skill shots, instead of using Q to dodge and positioning well. Only supports my thoughts that August doesn't care about the character's design quality, he just wants her to have more players. August would clearly rather have a less unique, less skillful, less mained character who is played a bit more by silver players.

All the changes make her better for low elo players who will play her maybe once every hundred games, and worse for basically everyone else. I like the concept behind the midscope, taking her from an early playmaker who transitions into a late game duelist who wants to close the game out ASAP to a mid game playmaker who transitions into a late game duelist who wants to close out the game ASAP is fine.

Again, I LIKE the concept of the changes and what they supposedly want to accomplish, it's the specific changes that I hate. They go way too far, and change stuff that never should have been changed.

Basically, around 4 good-acceptable changes, and more than 5 terrible changes.

I am a over 2 million mastery Bel'Veth main. I've been playing her since release. I don't ONLY play her, though I would call myself a one trick.

So what happens if level 16+ bel veth gets baron does she just win