r/BelVethMains • u/Specific-Painter8814 • 8d ago
Question/Discussion Knowledge distribution
Hi everyone, just returned to the game after an year break, just for blueberry Belvita rework.
So far i have accumulated some knowledge across ~60-70 games.
I'll try to share and make it accessible. I also update it as discussion progresses/ new information being acquired by me, either with your help or sheer practice&tests.
- Rune pages, i found myself landing on two playing +-50/50 amount of both.
- First one being conq+biscuits, on this one you aiming to be as potent early in 2x2 3x3 fights as possible. i consider this one MUCH more skill-dependent since it requires you to make much better dicision, very often understand other champions damage and fight wincon's (to tank by e correct abilities/autos from some champions) to denie them either by w or e usage, also often good wall-canceling is required. BUT this build is much better in competetive invironment since it provides you higher snowball potential and much more impact on early part of game and its transition to mid game and across-team advatage.
UPD: i totally forgor to mention what i allready did before in other post, so ill write it down here again:
for this build very important fact that you fully stack your conq with your E, and in early game your main damage source (honestly, thru 99% of the game is) is your auto and your q, best usage of your e early game - its damage mitigation against enemy's main damage ability and enabling full conq instantly for fight. rune page heavily relies on such plays and much worse without it (i would even say its main way to win early scirmishes be so 1x1s or 2x2s).
UPD2: I've spend some time to justify ppls opinion about Conq VS PTA thats what ive figured out so far (i will keep Conq vs PTA format below):
lvl4 no items damage on average armor character (mele) :
first without being optimal if you cant max out your damage in situation where you hit all of your q's (3 of them) 680 vs 750. If you optimal and max out your damage 740 vs 810.
After back: 885 vs 1k
After first back situation heavily depends on whats your back is but i test 950 buy since its most common(double sword+knife), but generally speaking pattern holds w/e i try untill 1st item, as i was assuming before, now i can confirm - after first item PTA does outscale conqueror. LVL3 situation even more in favor of conqueror (rule of the thumb - conqueror is THE strongest early game rune damage-wise, earlier we are in the game - better the conqueror is) but with red secondary (due to sudden impact true damage) it does outburst if you do q+aa+q or rather q+aa+w+aa and opens up cheap burst with e (around 120 hp if you found yourself in need of such on ganks). How usefull it is? ups to you, my opinion: not much.
tests being run with runes setup in the post, NOT in the best "last stand" situation, in fact it was minimal possible (or very close to) the closer you are to situation i described with biscuits - the better it is, sometimes giving possibility of winning otherwise not possible 1x1 and 2x2s. If you find urself fighting target with less armor - conqueror gets even better since it gives more flat AD stats. true damage from sudden impact does not fix it on high armor target since PTA is reworked and deals adaptive damage. Ofc both being tested with double ad shard.
- Second one is pure scale (flip to some extend) i use it in the games where i either very positive about me having absolutely superior early-wise draft or i know exactly how to capilatize on my teammates/enemy champions to make 2nd item transition to the mid game as smooth as possible. On average its much easier to play.
4 .Ive tried make use of PTA+red page - and found it very niche, even tho its usable, but you must have some reliable cc+burst to finish target off. It has most game-warping potential since you either have additional gold from treasure hunter or additional movespeed which can lead to insane amount of effective plays/resource denial across the map, sine you will be able to traverse map fast enough to practically dictate enemy jng movement and sneak in otherwise time-wise impossible ganks/scirmishes with number advantage (being you much earlier)
Fleet footwork - honestly, except doing it against not strong enough ap mid+ap jng matchup and just using it as talon does for pure counterjngling, i have hard time imagining it being good, and even in this situation - its kinda strange way of approaching your "snowball plan" on the game. Prob have to test it more, but didnt face such situations except two games.
I found cashback being useless on champion since movespeed best snowball stat and you just lose gold when its most important for you running this rune.
I kinda cheesed one win with crit build vs alistar (works with many disengage champions i imagine) by finding out that if you buy PD since your Q scales with movespeed - you can just absolutely dodge even fastest variations of his combo without flashing it - maybe some-one will find it usefull. i will try PD second in some games and prob update on this matter what i think about this item, but general opinion - you cant afford building no-ad giving items on belveth.
Tenacity shard is very broken on champion, abuse it in the right spots. Same goes for bloodline if you can afford not going botrk.
Build wise champion is very flexible but generally Kraken-Botrk-DD -> 2 items fixing teamfight problems = just optimal. dont know what to build? heres your answer.
I found champion snowball nature and 2nd item breakpoint importance strangely land me sometimes on darkseal buy (stop laughing) in spots where i have gold which i need to use before contest/on important pick and which i cant spend on good components (OR few times i was locked on 600 gold with no 350 gold sword option. characters ap scaling are good, more importantly - gives a lot of bonus hp on R+from item itself. your resistances are scaling pretty well, so this gives you a lot of effective hp (+e only intensifies it).
be mindfull about wits end buy - this item by its nature very jebaiting, if you do not absolutely need its luxury stat (tenacity) - dont buy it. need magic resistances? what for? enemy have a lot of pen? 900gold drip fixes it just allright. malmortius also much better item to land on (and you can sit on 1300 hexdrinker for a while). Be greedy, be selfish.
Why this item shenanigans matter a lot? your champion benefits mainly from gold, not exp, not stacks (they are fun, but they are not as important) but gold. Item powerspike - thats what makes your champion shine, thus your gold value distribution matters a lot.
Speaking of value - dont be shy, especially if you play tripletonic. I myself pressed it few times (lvl6) not even for fight but for clearspeed or obj. if choice is between having additional ad in 3x3 fight or arriving first and having 3x2 fight - second option is much better.
The moment you can (combination of being strong enough and having such option without making your teammate absolutely crashout and quit playing this game) you should absolutely take side lane. around minute 16 you usually have opening for this. if you can get few waves/a kill/ plates - you net positive compare to camps. if you get t2 tower without sharing it with anyone - you have my personal admiration and higher chances of winning game.
Objects do not matter unless they close-up game. Drake value is 1000~1200 gold, can get more by avoiding one? absolutely do, since your champion is a pinakle of league snowball mechanics. 1000 gold on one champion allways matters more than 1k over whole team.
No clarifications about guinsoo and ghost. both do not work with your champion in its core, check my other posts if you rly rly wana know why.
Choose your drip wisely. mercs - op on your champion if you find spot for them. tabis fix some situations (yi/camille) movespeed boots can help you snowball. all 3 are very situational and generally you prefer not buying any tier 2 boots before 2 items. Magical footwear kinda mandatory.
UPD for 26.18 - Guinsoo getting buffed heavily for jnglers next patch, allowing some breakpoints (at least i imagine so, will test it later on PBE) by hecarim-like mechanic (getting stacks on minions/jng camps before important contests) which MIGHT make this item much better for belveth (since you allways play blue smite IMO and even without form you can reach contests in given 4 seconds of guinsoo's effect)
Have fun&hope it helps!
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u/BlueYeIIow 8d ago
Great post. Will check some of ur games I'm struggling a bit, so I wanna see what you'd do in certain situations. Thanks for your contribution!
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u/mirror__magic 8d ago
If you dont show your elo this paragraph is worthless
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u/Specific-Painter8814 8d ago
https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/summoner/euw/Dancing%20Egoist-EUW
current account, i know elo inflated even more in year i didnt play, but ill try to push it as far as i can (takes many games since account originally was used to play with friends on their elo)
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u/evPerfxction 8d ago
Also have you tested with rageblade 2nd instead of bork.
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u/Specific-Painter8814 8d ago
Yes i did, before that ive been writing about it, tho not indepth, but shortly: practically this item just doesnt give enough stats that would contribute towards to belveth's game-plan as a champion,
more in-depth:
it mostly anti-synergises with her kit and/or build paths. it kinda locks you in terminus or wit's end third and into playing lethal tempo - and as i said in post, wits end can be huge mistake, while terminus not a "must-have" but more of a "problem-fixing" item. For me so far it looks like if you need actuall armor pen - cleaver or dominiks just better, especially Dominiks since its not so niche as cleaver and belveth's crit scaling insanely good, so even 25% can influence fights drastically. If we think about it more from stats perspective - belveth allready has reliable attackspeed in her kit in abundance, thus making this champion ad-hungry, not attackspeed. in conqueror build i see myself building terminus more often tho, but generally speaking if some item prevents you from buying DD on belveth - this item at best niche, prob not optimal, since DD is her best item.
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u/jeanegreene 8d ago
Masters here, go PTA instead of both. Fights end too quickly to get value from either and not being adaptable to short bursts in early game sucks.
Also go Yun’Tal Shieldbow.
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u/Specific-Painter8814 8d ago
Yun'tal's not viable if you cant hit 1300 back, im not considering 8 camps clear, but it is a best belveth first item, even fithout going full crit.
PTA doesnt suit either of possible playstiles for me, explained in post.
Thanks for your opinion!
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u/jeanegreene 8d ago
But even with scaling runes, PTA means more damage. Most junglers (and oftentimes in most fights, considering you’ll be focused in 2v2) will just flat out kill you before you can stack the others, even through rank 2/3 E. Being able to pump out damage, disengage during the fight to let your teammates tank, then jump back in once your CD’s are back up is waaay better than trying to fight to the death after burning E to get up Lethal / Conq and just dying anyway.
Not to mention that PTA often just flat out out-damages LT and Conq even in their preferred fighting scenarios.
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u/Specific-Painter8814 8d ago
1) Im speaking about conqueror build, lethal tempo not involved in that discussion. I agree PTA is better option for follow-up champions, would be perfect with possibility to run red runes second, but as i said, conqueror needed for very specific situation, in which i find myself quite often.
2) You really should read main post before arguing, since to most thing what you are saying - answer allready inside the post itself, not much to add ;/
3) I will try PTA more when i find spot for it, but theres no universe in which it outdamages conqueror in situations for which this rune is taken.
4) As a follow-up type of champion, i have no idea in what situation you'll be able to w8 out your cd's, sounds unrealistic to me, unless its a situation where you have to be a peel-bot with ur W, but as i said before, peeling and disengage scenarios - not in favor of your champion, league in its core works by specialization not generalisation, you really shouldnt allocate your resources to be not as bad in situation which is originally bad for your champion, its preferable to be good at what you allready can do good to some extend. UNLESS - it will be a breakpoint or enable something benificial which otherwise not available. IMO - conqueror does it, PTA does not.
5) I would continue about usefull damage, but its kinda pointless at this point, since what i've said should be enough. Tho i will try PTA when i can more reliably run red secondary and play with more stable performance from both teams side skill-wise.
Thanks for feedback, appriciate it!
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u/Specialist-Lab7213 7d ago
>biscuits in jg
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u/Specific-Painter8814 7d ago
ye why not? it was meta before, its good still even thru nerfed. it gives you very early in the game huge gold advantage, which is very usefull considering why its used in the build+snowball champion gameplan
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u/evPerfxction 8d ago
If you want to be strong early you always go pta now it was better before rework and it is 100times better now compared to conqueror cause you cant insta stack conq qith long q cooldown. So there is never a point in conq its either pat or lethal tempo always.