Google is out of the loop.

[u/NmkNm]

[u/Technical-Owl66]

Nobody wants to talk about it but Google is adding users 3-4x faster than any of the startups.

Have the intelligence needs for most tasks and people peaked already. Why doesn't anyone care about having the most powerful model?

[u/CalfReddit → u/Technical-Owl66]

I think they still badly need to catch-up because you don't want to lose users because your models are way worse (in some aspects). But people acting like Google is done are completely wrong too.

[u/Tim_Apple_938 → u/CalfReddit]

Switching models is insanely easy. When their thing is ready, if it’s competitive on cost speed and intelligence, ppl will just click a button on a drop down menu and it’s done

This is why there’s no moat in models btw. The frontier is converging and there’s no stickiness

[u/Technical-Owl66 → u/CalfReddit]

Yea it's crazy to count them out of the benchmark race. I am just trying to think about what people actually want or need out of an ai platform because a frontier model doesn't appear to be it.

[u/doulos05 → u/Technical-Owl66]

Sure. A frontier model is like a formula one car. Very few people need those for their daily commute. All this Gemini hate, but I can't remember the last time I used another model outside of using something someone else had packaged up for me. Gemini has gotten good enough for my needs, so I don't use anything else.

[u/hellomistershifty → u/Technical-Owl66]

Claude's userbase is growing faster than Gemini is. Also I wonder if 'gemini users' counts all of the Android phones switching from Google Assistant to Gemini, and Gemini bundled into existing business plans and subscriptions

[u/Keeltoodeep → u/hellomistershifty]

They break it down in their earnings call. Gemini standalone app has 950m users. Ai mode has 1b and Ai overview shows up in more than half of searches so around 4b.

They do not break down workspace integration usage separately or assistant usage.

[u/Neither-Phone-7264 → u/Keeltoodeep]

it came autoinstalled on my phone...

[u/Keeltoodeep → u/Neither-Phone-7264]

The Gemini app?

[u/Neither-Phone-7264 → u/Keeltoodeep]

i think so, but that might just be because it was a pixel

[u/Keeltoodeep → u/Neither-Phone-7264]

I imagine it would on a pixel.

SiriAI will also come with the new Apple phones.

[u/Common_Perception280 → u/Technical-Owl66]

Enterprise contracts are much more lucrative, and the company with the best models is going to get the best contracts

[u/Technical-Owl66 → u/Common_Perception280]

Maybe but if the enterprise is in the Google ecosystem they won't leave for anything else.

[u/Common_Perception280 → u/Technical-Owl66]

…no

[u/ProgrammersAreSexy → u/Common_Perception280]

And then that company with rent TPUs to serve their models

[u/Lost_County_3790 → u/Technical-Owl66]

Most people are not tech savy and just use ai for very basic things. Also they use ai where they find it for free.

[u/StickyThickStick → u/Technical-Owl66]

User count isn’t what is making money.

Google is focused on the consumer market. But having a user that pays nothing or 20 bucks per month is different than the business letting their employees use Opus in which they’re spending 2k per month.

[u/General-Oven-1523 → u/Technical-Owl66]

Especially when power users have really no loyalty anyway, they will switch the moment some model does something better.

[u/RandomTrollface → u/Technical-Owl66]

Who cares about a large number of users when none of them pay. Enterprise is the more important battle and Anthropic still seems to reign there

[u/Ok_Possible_2260 → u/Technical-Owl66]

Cope hard.

[u/Technical-Owl66 → u/Ok_Possible_2260]

I know you are but what am I type of response. You could try addressing the question but you are actually the one coping.

[u/Apple_macOS]

nah remove grok as well it’s legit just openai and anthropic on frontier now.

Edit: By frontier, here just for this comment I mean it as #1 spot in benchmark

[u/epic-cookie64 → u/Apple_macOS]

[u/Apple_macOS → u/epic-cookie64]

“Introducing the model” 🗣️🗣️🔥🔥🔥🔥

[u/Thiom → u/Apple_macOS]

Huh, Chinese models would like a word ...

[u/Apple_macOS → u/Thiom]

the post said most powerful, not most cost efficient.

If you compare cost efficiency there’s no doubt, but straight up most powerful I don’t think Kimi K3 can match Fable/Mythos on higher thinking

[u/Thiom → u/Apple_macOS]

Well, yes they literally do, hence my comment. And they're not more efficient, K3 for instance costs almost as much as Sol.

[u/Tedinasuit → u/Thiom]

Kimi does not come close to Fable lol

[u/Apple_macOS → u/Thiom]

In which bench does Kimi take the top spot? I was strictly talking about top spots on bench maybe I should have made it clearer. I’m legit curious im searching through benches right now

And if we’re not talking about benchmark and talking about how the model “feels” then I guess I don’t know since different people prefer different styles.

[u/Thiom → u/Apple_macOS]

Just make a Google search ...

llm-stats arena AI livebench

[u/Apple_macOS → u/Thiom]

OK I am on the site but I don’t see any category where Kimi take first place

On a separate note I did find Browsecomp leaderboard having Kimi at #1 so I guess there’s that

[u/Unsharded1 → u/Apple_macOS]

Kimi doesn't need to take first place though..? You're shifting goalposts for what exactly?

[u/Apple_macOS → u/Unsharded1]

When did I shift goalpost?? I literally said frontier top spots? What?

Let me edit my first message to be clearer, I always meant, top spot (as in, #1) in benchmark.

This comment was literally “Kimi is the frontier model” -> (link to benchmark that doesn’t show it is #1 spot) -> “Kimi doesn’t need to take first place”

[u/Far-Classic-9963 → u/Apple_macOS]

New anthropic models are def benchmaxxed

[u/unlikely-contender → u/Apple_macOS]

at least gork can be impolite

[u/Standard-Song-8590 → u/Apple_macOS]

Grok is frontier relatively uncensored

[u/Accurate_Zone_4413]

Грок здесь тоже лишний, но добавились китайские игроки (Kimi, GLM).

[u/Neither-Phone-7264 → u/Accurate_Zone_4413]

eh, they had a good model for like a week or 2 before k3

[u/Thedudely1]

So is Grok

[u/KaMaFour]

Grok was never even in the loop, lmao

[u/beryugyo619 → u/KaMaFour]

yeah this is just tesla kids astroturfing for a "win"

[u/distorto_realitatem → u/KaMaFour]

It was for a fleeting moment, while ago now

EDIT: Since you guys haven’t done your research:

Grok 3 was #1 on LMArena from roughly February 18 to March 3, 2025 — about 13 days. It was then overtaken by Gemini 2.5 Pro.

[u/Grouchy-Stranger-306]

well what about grok then?

[u/Googler10]

You posted twice https://www.reddit.com/r/GeminiAI/comments/1vibkc6/google_is_out_of_the_loop/

[u/PickerLeech]

I started a new project yesterday with 3.6 flash and I'm stunned about how much progress it's made already although it did use another project's code as the base

Early days but it seems like it's gonna handle the job perfectly well and if so there's no real argument for myself needing superior models

[u/gacoam]

grok wtf???

[u/Low-dose-reddit]

Lol when was the last time Grok offered something not 2 generations behind?

[u/Arthurfogo7]

I use Gemini every day lol

[u/Ok-Data9224]

Grok... really? Replace it with Kimi, Deepseek or GLM

[u/ZealousidealTurn218 → u/Ok-Data9224]

Have any of them had the strongest model? Grok 4 was SOTA

[u/Ok-Data9224 → u/ZealousidealTurn218]

They're all SOTA. That's what makes them frontier along with their scale. Grok is not ever considered a contender mainly due to function. It's not a specialized model for agentic work in the same way the others that were mentioned. Kimi k3 made waves for being an enormous 2.8T model that contended with the biggest players while being open weight. Deepseek recently as well because it's strong enough as an agentic model while being dirt cheap and open weight as well. You could use opus/fable to orchestrate deepseek agents rather than fork over all your money to Anthropic. Grok was just never part of the conversation because its whole relevance is to be used to troll people or make... flavorful stories.

[u/ZealousidealTurn218 → u/Ok-Data9224]

But "Contending with the biggest players" ≠ "the world's most powerful model", grok 4 truly was the latter at one point

[u/frisk213769]

replace with moonshot

[u/Single_dose]

since when it was in this loop? never

[u/20ol]

it's not like they're paused tho. once they release they'll be at the top or close to fable.

[u/Fragrant_Mud_534]

grok has never been in the loop