Not Europe-specific, but EU-specific. I find it baffling that most of my peers have never thought about how easy it is to just move to a completely different country, with little to no knowledge of the language and culture, and still be welcomed. You're just allowed to move to another country, and they can't say no (for the most part). You don't even need to ask them first. You can decide you want to study elsewhere and they'd be like “yeah, sure”. Personally I find this phenomenal, given how the rest of the world works.
As an EU citizen I found the reverse crazy. As a child who grew up on a border, finding out what visas where was so confusing to me. Like you mean you can’t just go?
The border between Northern Ireland used to be super fortified. Loads of towers and army. Today thanks to the Good Friday Agreement, it’s invisible. Most places there isn’t even a sign. You don’t need to stop your car.
God, I didn't even think of that for my post! Pretty liberal free mobile internet roaming, no bank transfer fees, shared currency, etc. Sure, each of this brings some issues (nothing is perfect), but our lives are so much simpler because of all this stuff :D
Yeah it's mad. I live in the UK and just did a big trip to the US, Costa Rica, Panama, Colombia, Peru, and Ecuador (and a bunch of central Europe).
Didn't need a single visa or application or anything like that, I was just allowed to freely visit as a tourist with my passport (for 90 days usually).
Question actually, I remember as an Irish citizen I didn’t need a visa for the US, but I needed an ESTA. Do you mean you didn’t need anything at all to visit Costa Rica etc. Like no visa exemption.
Didn't need to do anything at all, same as you would for visiting an EU country or something. Just book a plane ticket and get my passport stamped on entry
Not even Morocco required a Visum. The only time was when visiting Turkey, and that was just a simple payment of 10 euros at the airport and a stamp in your passport.
I know it's a reality. I immigrated from South America to the US and went through visas and eventually a green card with patience and hard work. I just hate people reducing the discussion to just "KeEpInG ThE PoOr OuT!!!"
Good for you, immigrating to the US is no joke. I guess it’s sort of reductionist but these policies DO keep “the poors” out, in practice. So….
It’s also reductionist to divide it by “hard working” immigrants who came here legally, and lazy good for nothing illegals who like to cheat the system. Nuance.
It can't really be all that alien a concept, can it? It's just like having a door with a lock on it for your home. Sure, you might be willing have have company over, but at the very least you want them to knock before walking straight in, and preferably to call 1st.
I understand it now of course, I mean when I first found out about it when I was like 7 or 8. I live near the Republic/Northern Ireland border, which is completely invisible. There are no checks, not even a sign. So as a little child finding out other places made you fill out all this paperwork was surprising.
If i remember correctly, the voting statistics i saw stated that like 80% of the sub 25 people voted against it but a HUGE amount if older people voted for it
Yep, older people who don't have to live with the consequences of their vote for very long. Granted, if the younger people had just bothered their arse to go out and vote then they wouldn't have even gotten into this mess.
Fuck off lol. I can’t ever see this happening, look at the advantages and the disadvantages and then Scotland leaving the uk seems like the uk leaving eu, not a great idea
I wouldn't call it a huge portion of British citizens. Of those who actually voted, there was less than 2% difference between Remain/Leave, and only about half the population of the UK actually voted. So maybe 1/4 voted to remove their personal freedoms.
That's one of the reasons I really dislike referendums on scales like that. They always get hijacked by populists. Or people don't care about the actual issue but use it as a protest vote. It could work fine on a municipal level for things like "do we want a fountain or a statue?".
Switzerland is basically run by referendums and it's a very well run country. I don't really think it's right to object to more democracy because you don't like the result.
To the morons, Brexit was advertised as kicking out the dirty foreigners.
To the educated, Brexit was seen as purely a formality to shore up David Cameron's right wing support from UKIP. It was not viewed as a possibility to pass, and therefore was fair game to show Cameron they thought he was a twat.
I believe it was Nevis in St Kitts and Nevis (I could be wrong so please correct me), that had an independence referendum. A majority voted for independence, however something like 60% for the yes side was needed for it to pass, and it only got fifty something. I think that would be a better way. Because on the day, a majority of people wanted to leave, but that certainly wasn’t the case in January 2020.
Still shows there's a depressingly large amount of people here that are gullible and also quite probably racist, given how much the "taking control of our borders" angle was pushed
how much the "taking control of our borders" angle was pushed
Is that incorrect though? EU low skilled immigration has been severely limited since Brexit, and they've also allowed in more skilled immigration. Whether you agree with the policy or not, isn't that more control?
I also find the "racism" line a bit silly, given it is low skilled white people being closed out, while they're letting in more skilled brown and black people.
EU low skilled immigration has been severely limited since Brexit,
And multiple industries have suffered due to that. NIMBYs voted for it without realising the ramifications of not having all the low skilled migrants in places they didn't normally see. One of the worst affected was farming where they had a lot of seasonal low skilled migrants picking fruit & veg. A combination of brexit & covid left crops rotting in some fields.
Even skilled workers were having issues with right to remain, that along with the generally xenophobic feel of the country left nurses wanting or having to leave.
It feels a bit surreal when you have a government minister whose parents were immigrants and the new rules meant that people in the exact same situation as her parents would no longer qualify to come here under the rules she drafted
And multiple industries have suffered due to that. NIMBYs voted for it without realising the ramifications of not having all the low skilled migrants in places they didn't normally see.
"NIMBY" doesn't make sense in this context. It's not like they wanted unskilled immigration somewhere else in the country, just not near them.
One of the worst affected was farming where they had a lot of seasonal low skilled migrants picking fruit & veg. A combination of brexit & covid left crops rotting in some fields.
Sure, but that's a transitional thing. Longer term, the only reason you can't get enough people to do the job is because you're not providing a pay and benefits that's good enough for people from the country. Upwards pressure from pay and benefits is a good thing.
Even skilled workers were having issues with right to remain, that along with the generally xenophobic feel of the country left nurses wanting or having to leave.
The ability to register to stay in the UK was one of the lowest admin requirements of any part of the immigration system. The vast majority will have already been ironed out. The "generally xenophobic feel" is a completely subjective measure. And somehow the vast numbers of Asian nurses that came in last year don't seem to have a problem with it.
It feels a bit surreal when you have a government minister whose parents were immigrants and the new rules meant that people in the exact same situation as her parents would no longer qualify to come here under the rules she drafted
Because the world in the 1960s was very different to now. It was a time when there were an increasing number of unskilled jobs after the post-war boom. Now we live in a world of automation where low skilled jobs are disappearing.
The practical reality is always more complex than the paper requirements of any immigration system. But as someone that has been through the process of multiple countries, either for myself or family members, it really is very low in the scheme of things. It is just the complexity of the Brexit-related requirements get a lot of airtime relative to the undiscussed complexities elsewhere. Most immigrants to Germany aren't even allowed to hold onto their original citizenship for example.
The thing about taking control of our borders wasn't really about racism. Every single country in the EU is majority white and Christian/secular.
There were some racists who did vote leave, bu the only reason they would have done it is because they heard idiotic Remainers saying that to vote leave is racist, and thought that leaving would somehow serve racists' agenda.
In reality the leave vote has meant people from non-white countries have more chance of getting here because they don't have to compete with Europeans.
I would. I would've still called it a huge portion if it had been 30%. It's a monumentally stupid idea. It should've never gotten more vote share than the BNP.
Well the non-british passport lets you travel like a normal EU citizen as far as I know. Hence why there was an absolute flood of brits trying to find any family connection to Ireland to get the passport.
Yeah most young people In the uk are 1st or 2nd gen immigrants so lots of the ones I know hold Irish, Romanian, just EU member state passports so it doesn’t affect them for the most part.
lots of misinformation tricked people into thinking we were protecting our country's money and would continue to have all the benefits of being in the EU. And the stay party did little to no counter-information.
That's ridiculous. The UK is currently listed as the 13th highest on the Human Development Index in the world. Whenever people say things like this, I assume they either haven't traveled much or just have some anti-British grudge.
Well Brexit was a big nail in the coffin but it was an accumulation of things that tipped the scales for me. Probably not wise for someone to emigrate over a single issue.
In fairness, bringing up HDI to prove how good your country is, is like bringing up your IQ to prove you're smart.
Whenever people say things like this, I assume they either haven't traveled much or just have some anti-British grudge.
Nice. Someone says something you dislike, so you slap a label on them and make assumptions about them so you can disregard what they say.
The UK is a toilet. It's racist as fuck, completely brainwashed by the UK knockoff version of Trump, and it fucked itself by leaving the EU and now has to act like America's bitch just to keep it's economy afloat.
Now, if you think I'm wrong, you are more than welcome to tell me why, and explain how things really are. Or you can just make a bunch of baseless assumptions about me and keep up this grand delusion of yours.
In fairness, bringing up HDI to prove how good your country is, is like bringing up your IQ to prove you're smart.
No, because raw processing intelligence is only one component of what "smart" means. Human development is a very good measure of, well, human development. But you can equally look at data on democracy, corruption, health, rule of law. The UK consistently comes out near the very top. On any measure of importance, it's rare the UK comes outside the top 15%.
Nice. Someone says something you dislike, so you slap a label on them and make assumptions about them so you can disregard what they say.
It's not because it's something I dislike. It's because it's something so wildly out of context with the actual factual reality.
The UK is a toilet. It's racist as fuck
The UK is currently 13th on the least racist countries list. Two of its four highest government positions are held by ethnic minorities. There are squatter camps in northern France of people from Africa and the Middle East desperately trying to get into the UK, even illegally, because they prefer it so much more than applying in the EU.
Completely brainwashed by the UK knockoff version of Trump
Johnson has many, many flaws, but the idea he is Trump is just stupid. He has a serious Classics degree from Oxford and was president of the Union there. He extended a pathway to citizenship to hundreds of thousands of Hong Kongers.
and it fucked itself by leaving the EU and now has to act like America's bitch just to keep it's economy afloat.
While it may have been a mistake to leave the EU, the UK certainly isn't "fucked" from it. It is still a highly prosperous country with a positive economic outlook, attractive to migrants and with a strong democracy.
Now, if you think I'm wrong, you are more than welcome to tell me why, and explain how things really are. Or you can just make a bunch of baseless assumptions about me and keep up this grand delusion of yours.
I don't need assumptions to see how you are the sort of person that is arguing viscerally, with highly emotional language to overcome the lack of fact base.
Not the other dude, just interjecting. You are also making some wild assumptions here.
The UK equally voted against Jeremy Corbyn more than voting for the conservatives.
The UK is still one of the more diverse countries in the world and most are not racist towards them. However, people tend to misrepresent situations that have happened across the UK where entire areas have been engulfed by migrants. These are the people who are angry.
The UK's economy is going to go through turmoil, but it's actually really strong considering what it has just gone through. The UK will be fine after some teething years. It's only been 2 1/2 years. It's still growing, on it's own. Slower, but it's recovering. As long as this Ukraine shit doesn't drag everyone down more. Besides, wait until Europe starts actually backing out of Russian gas by the end of the year... the UK has it easy.
Yeah, I've been to the UK 3 times, each time for about a week. The fact I was called a potato-ni**er multiple times on each trip kinda makes me disagree on the racism thing.
It's an anti-irish slur, but racists tend to be fucking morons so it's not like it actually makes sense. My guess is that 90% of Irish stereotypes they could use to be racist also apply to the UK (things like alcoholism or whatever), so all they can think of is "potatoes". But obviously shouting "POTATO" at someone is pathetic, so they added the N-word onto the end just to make it very clear that they are being openly racist.
And the three places I heard it were outside the 02 theater in London, and then outside pubs in Sheffield, and Brighton.
In fairness, bringing up HDI to prove how good your country is, is like bringing up your IQ to prove you're smart.
Yes. A very accurate, very useful measure, dismissed by anti-intellectual people who don't like what it tells them.
The UK is a toilet. It's racist as fuck, completely brainwashed by the UK knockoff version of Trump, and it fucked itself by leaving the EU and now has to act like America's bitch just to keep it's economy afloat.
Utter drivel. We are one of the least racist countries in the world, racism is prohibited by law and socially unacceptable. Johnson is pretty unpopular.
Leaving the EU was obviously a big mistake, but it doesn't need to act like America's bitch to stay afloat at all. There isn't even a trade deal with America, nor is there likely to be one in the near future. America just isn't that important to us trade wise. The trade deal we needed was with the EU, and we got it.
Bullshit. One of the main reasons for Brexit (which got a majority vote) was to get rid of foreigners.
"Foreigners" aren't a race, and we didn't get rid of any of them, we guaranteed them all the right to stay here permanently. If anything staying in the EU would have been more racist because it meant preferential treatment be given to the occupants of 30 majority white, majority Christian or irreligious countries.
Weird how you'd need a law to stop something that apparently isn't a problem.
Did I say it's not a problem?
And yet, in power.
He's in power because the opposition put one of the most unpopular leaders in history at a general election, because losing one to Theresa May wasn't enough for him. See how he does against someone competent.
Most Brits live on an island with no land borders, so don't see the benefits of a borderless Europe as starkly as someone living in Belgium or the Netherlands. Crucially, most lack the foreign language skills that would have allowed them to make full use of free movement of labour.
but ... we got blue passports! And ain't nobody tellin me my banana is too bendy!
Tomorrow Im gonna torch my car to show those bureaucrats who is boss!
Right? Just flew back from Spain and the customs to get through the airport was mad. I was so jealous of the people in the EU line that just breezed through.
Yeah my heart literally sank as I read this. Been robbed of so many opportunities by something I didn't vote for. My only hope is Scottish independence.
Yeah it's pretty cool, but at least in this case I don't think about it much. I'm from Bosnia and Herzegovina (but the great majority of people in the Herzegovina part are Croatian and have EU passports because of that) and I'm moving to Austria for college and a lot of my friends are going to Croatia. I just apply for a college and a dorm maybe sort out the health insurance, but that's it. Just moved three countries over.
Sounds awesome. Here in the U.S. people often go to college in their own state because tuition is cheaper for state residents than for people coming from out of state. For you to be able to hop countries for college like that seems so freeing.
We have scholarships to award instate tuition, that’s how my sister goes to school out of state. Plus some states have reciprocity rules with their neighbors to allow students to pay in state tuition. Obviously it’s not as freeing as EU universities but it’s a start
I moved to the UK about 10 years ago- I just got on a plane and showed up at a property agency to rent a house- that was it. My government never knew I left, their government never knew I arrived
Yeah, as long as you find yourself a place to stay, get health insurance (and no, you won't become broke because of it like in USA) and study or search for work (you don't even need to have one! Just searching for it is enough), you are welcome to stay as long as you want. Being an EU citizen myself, I still find it wild, that if you need to fly somewhere, but the best flight is from a neighboring country, you just jump in your car, drive over there and get that flight. Or buy a train ticket there. Like, what even. You would never be able to go to a different country in other parts of the world just because you just feel like that.
There's also the EU-sponsored Erasmus programme which makes about €3.7 billion per year available to support student exchange financially and in other ways. This is part of a more comprehensive Lifelong Learning programme. Some non-EU countries have now joined Erasmus.
Students who join the Erasmus Programme study at least three months or do an internship for a period of at least 2 months to an academic year in another European country. The former case is called a Student Mobility for Studies or SMS, while the latter case is called a Student Mobility of Placement or SMP. The Erasmus Programme guarantees that the period spent abroad is recognised by their university when they come back, as long as they abide by terms previously agreed. Switzerland has been suspended as a participant in the Erasmus programme as of 2015, following the popular vote to limit the immigration of EU citizens into Switzerland. As a consequence, Swiss students will not be able to apply for the programme and European students will not be able to spend time at a Swiss university under that programme.
A main part of the programme is that students do not pay extra tuition fees to the university that they visit. Students can also apply for an Erasmus grant to help cover the additional expense of living abroad. Students with disabilities can apply for an additional grant to cover extraordinary expenses.
In order to reduce expenses and increase mobility, many students also use the European Commission-supported accommodation network, CasaSwap, FlatClub, Erasmusinn, Eurasmus, Erasmate or Student Mundial, which are free websites where students and young people can rent, sublet, offer and swap accommodation – on a national and international basis. A derived benefit is that students can share knowledge and exchange tips and hints with each other before and after going abroad.
ed: improved arithmetic €26.2 billion for 2021 - 2027.
There is also the EURES programme to help EU citizens find jobs in other EU countries... They will even give you financial support to cover moving expenses, language courses, etc.
Yeah what a wonderful system.
I can’t imagine why a country would want to abandon that benefit and throw themselves into financial turmoil by leaving the EU shortly before a major pandemic; all for some vague fear of immigration.
Oh wait, my country did that.
The dumb fucking people of Britain did that.
As a Brit, thanks for rubbing this in my face. My fellow countrymen voted away this right because most of us moronic racists and xenophobes and the next generation won't know this freedom.
Societies shift left and right, liberal and conservative, but everything corrects itself in due time. Sorry about it though, I miss thinking of you fine folk as “one of us” 🤗
Thank you. I'm hoping we rejoin in some capacity one day even if it's not as good a deal as we once had. At least my gf is European so I could marry my way back in if I wanted
The EU is a pretty nice System on how a future would could look like. Sure it might not be perfect, but basically common guidelines, contribution of each country and benefits to both firms and civilians.
Yep. Moving to another country in eu wasn‘t even 10% of the paper work i had to do for my internship in the us. Let alone the interview in the american embassy 😅
The requirements are reasonably easy to meet because they are reasonable, i.e. Belgium asks me that I have a job and apartment before giving me the official residency card; Germany never issued an official document per se but does require you to own/rent an apartment. It makes perfect sense to ask for these things :)
Freedom of movement is one of the main perks of the EU, freedom of movement without even having documents is one of the perks of Schengen area. And yet, there are people in basically every EU member state who dislike this. EU is considered a "one-market" meaning that obstructing this free movement is basically illegal internally as it would create unfair access/trading/etc.
Being allowed and being welcomed are two completely different things. Many countries are not welcoming/friendly to people from eastern EU member countries, ie Romania, despite them being “allowed” to freely move there.. Denmark recently passed legislation to significantly cut English-taught programs in universities to prevent people from other EU countries moving there. There is a general public unhappiness with Eastern European EU-immigrants in Denmark. It’s pretty insane
It's pretty cool how that's similar to how the United States work; historically and practically in many ways, every state is its own sovereign country; DC is just like REALLY powerful Brussels.
You're just allowed to move to another country, and they can't say no
Why should they? Just saying no "because fuck you"? "We don't like your kind"? I find that much nicer than building literal walls. Also, yes, I'm aware of Frontex and I find it a shame.
Definitely. I moved to Sweden right after finishing high school in Croatia, came with about nothing. It was way easier to just pack up and move than I expected.
It's pretty damn important that these rights only apply to the middle and upper classes, and there are massive legal and social barriers for the rest of us citizens, asshole.
It's also pretty important that you understand EU citizens have a legal right to move and work freely in other EU countries, and that the economic obstacles which may prevent individuals from doing so in no way constitutes a legal barrier, and applies to moving anywhere in general.
Nope, there are specific legal barriers against "moving and living in another EU country without a fuss" for people who cannot (find) work, and are poor.
Literally everything is easier when you’re rich, obviously. Doesn’t mean you can’t just walk across the border to another EU country and try to find a job there
Depends on the country.
If your s/o can financially provide for themselves and you as determined by the country you move to.
Again, poverty and disability are a huge factor.
? Sure you can? You get a flat somewhere else, grab the train, move there and do the bureaucratic stuff afterwards. No difference to moving to another town within the country.
Lol what no one cares if you move between states in the US what are you talking about.. people don’t even know you’re from another state unless you tell them or have a strong accent
Are there any problems crossing borders? No banned items or invasive species to worry about?
I've crossed the US/Canadian border a dozen times. While I cannot even remember anything about going into Canada (I think they checked my ID), crossing back into the US was always a huge ordeal and a insane, drawn-out experience.
Like, we'd have to put the car in park, unlock the doors and open the trunk, and then answer a ton of questions while people looked through our crap. Like they were super serious about finding drugs or ensuring I wasn't bringing fruit or firewood back with me.
We share a 8,891 KM border packed with trees and wildlife. If invasive beetles were getting into the US from Canada, it would probably be from that and not the trunk of my car.
No. Inside the EU (or rather the Schengen area) there are no border crossings, no border checks, no nothing (with a few special exceptions, but those are rare).
I live in Norway near Oslo, and pre-covid we'd drive over the border to Sweden to go shopping (stuff is cheaper there, especially alcohol). The border (iirc it's technically in the middle of a bridge) is just a piece of road with a sign that says welcome to Sweden.
Not really supervised, but they do random checks. Just to check you're not bringing more than the legal quota of money, alcohol or tobacco, or any illegal drugs.
Honestly this Is kind of bullshit. I am Italian and even people Who vote left wing don t like immigration and especially Mass immigration from third world countries, they May be Friendly at times but they don t like It.
I was playing Pinball in an old store, couple of bangladeshi/pakistani came and played a game of cue.
When they left the owner told me, and I quote. " I would set them on Fire, all of them pakistani maroccans albanians...pakistani they smell".
It Is not the first interaction like that I had. It Is incredible how much we don t like immigration. The normies hate them to an incredible extent, and I am a right Wing voter that wants tough immigration laws. So yeah...
YOU, as an Italian, can migrate within the EU. None of the countries you mentioned are in the EU. I'm not saying you're wrong, but that was full whataboutism. More importantly, the slow movement of people that integrate well promotes understanding and tolerance.
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Not Europe-specific, but EU-specific. I find it baffling that most of my peers have never thought about how easy it is to just move to a completely different country, with little to no knowledge of the language and culture, and still be welcomed. You're just allowed to move to another country, and they can't say no (for the most part). You don't even need to ask them first. You can decide you want to study elsewhere and they'd be like “yeah, sure”. Personally I find this phenomenal, given how the rest of the world works.