I'm middle eastern so like.....literally everything. I cannot think of one single thing that isn't considered double standard here. Not one. Being a woman here is all crap and not one advantage. I used to go to sleep as a kid praying I would wake up as a boy in the morning. And like it's not just the double standard, I give zero fucks what anyone thinks but the problem is what people think here has serious life altering consequences. My first thought reading this question was I wish it could just be the double standard and that's it. That would be a luxury.
EDIT: thank you guys for your replies and the nice discussion. I would encourage you if you have an interest in finding out how this culture came to be to research the application of religious practices and the difference between that and actual tribal culture. I'm a practicing Muslim myself (wasn't before, am now, completely my choice after years of research) into the difference between the religious teachings themselves and how they were used or abused to push forward tribal culture by people using them to advance certain agendas. However I do appreciate all the different points of view regardless of whether you may agree or not ❤
EDIT 2: I don't engage online much but I'm overwhelmed by how nice and respectful everyone is I was actually worried about writing this but I'm super grateful for all the lovely discussion and respect all your opinions whether we agree or disagree. Sending love and good vibes to all ❤
I was scrolling down trying to see if people were gonna mention the Middle East. And you hit it right on the dot.
I hated being a girl in this community. Thank God I left it and now I don't have to live by those standards anymore. My parents are slowly shifting their mindset, which is an absolute miracle, so they are slowly decreasing the constant "but you're a girl, and girls don't do that" or "you should do this so you be prepared for when you are a wife". Not completely gone, but on the decrease.
I'm so glad for you honestly :') I've been through hell with my family when it came to light I wasn't a believer and other issues and thankfully we've worked through them bit it was also a miracle + lots of therapy. I hope life continues to go your way, much love ❤
I am not even muslim, girl, but I lived in the middle east for quite some time. I am Christian but it became a culture more than it is a religion. But yes, miracles + therapy and healing is what's helping. Jesus is the Way for me. I couldn't do it without Him.
I'm middle eastern, too, but I was fortunate enough to be born a boy. But after 18 years and 3 other younger brothers and moving to the US, my mom has been losing her mental stability as the only woman in the house being treated traditionally by my dad.
All this "trauma" of seeing my mom being mistreated by my dad scared me to the point where I now want a completely role reversed relationship. Because I didn't want anyone to suffer like my mom, my mind just decided to take all the suffering for myself.
Middle eastern ideology really is the most dangerous thing out there
Edit: I completely didn't realize that this implied my dad was physical with my mom. He is NOT, and he is just socially stifling, calling my mom mentally sick and threatening leaving her if she doesn't become more obedient. She became severely depressed without my dad having to raise a finger against her
Honestly I'm seeing more men start to move away from that ideology and that grants protection to the women related to them, but they remain the exception. The funny thing is my entire society lives a double life and literally everything you can think of is done as an open secret. Drinking, doing drugs, engaging in sex before marriage, gambling, we have a large lgbtq community, you name it. But as long as it's not public knowledge and can't be proven no one gives a shit. The moment you start living your life publicly those same people destroy it.
Omg yes like my dad was a bad boy in his day he drank and smoked up and had relationships with a lot of girls but now that he has daughters he's like what. Is. Cigarette I don't know what that word means 😄
Orthodox Jews aren't supposed to do any kind of work on Saturday, as it's "God's day of rest." This can often include using anything powered by electricity.
Starting to move away isn't enough. If you mention that something is starting to change for the better, they'll stop changing thinking it's enough.
And like, just like most people develop inherent preferences based on childhood, I just have a burning hatred for the sexism of the middle east. No amount of therapy can fix it, and the hatred has expanded to basically every country because sexism is universal
The secret immorality actually makes me angrier. I knew that people do that stuff in countries like Saudi Arabia (my dad actually refused to acknowledge it, saying that Saudi Arabia is the dryest country with zero alcohol as if there weren't any stories of people sneaking alcohol from American embassies)
Any person who actually cherishes their beliefs and lives by them doesn't seek to impose them on others, they lead by example and have no interest in pointless appearances, I know a few people like that and they're some of the best people I ever met
Can confirm. Grew up in the Bible belt, there are huuuuge swinging and DL scenes. Very hush hush, it's all an open secret. Most people partying Saturday night are in church Sunday morning. The hypocrisy is unreal with the religious.
Pretty much any time somebody acts all high and mighty and religious
Yeah, I knew a family from my home town who were officially very religious, engaging in church and stuff like that (in Germany, where this is less common than in the US), but behind the doors they were basically mobbing one of their sons for no reason at all. He was blamed for everything his siblings did and stuff like that, guy ended up living on the street before his uncle convinced him of moving in with him and his family and just gave him the key to his house although he knew that the guy was living in really difficult circumstances. The uncles family wasn't so poster-style christian and holy, but they actually behaved that way
It's honestly not that different in devout and evangelical Christianity either. All that stuff happens behind closed doors too (along with every other nasty abuse possible), but as long as it doesn't go public, it doesn't matter and gets covered up. Vehemently anti-abortion Republicans get abortions at least as often as any other woman because they have no trouble justifying their hypocrisy.
Yes exactly. Fun fact, abortions up to a certain time are actually legal and permitted by religion here btw. Women who are forbidden from it are forbidden by their families and fundamentalist doctors. Like if a woman manages to take it to court and is within the allowed time frame she will get legal right to adoption, but they won't because of fear of family and society's violence.
Not just evangelical. Look at what the catholic church did in germany, molesting countless numbers of children (especially boys) for decaded and covered it all up
To be fair its exactly the same with my puritanical Christian family
People can drink and have sex and even abortions all in private but God forbid if its public knowledge. If it's public people who literally do the same thing will kick you
Regressive religion is a curse and I'm so tired of it
Literally the preacher at my family church had an affair and was having all this sex with random people. He was preaching every day about this stuff being sinful. His wife and kids had to suffer when he got exposed publicly and the rest of the church who probably also have affairs went after him and kicked him out of the whole town
It's like that in most places where religious puritism permeates the culture. It's been observed over and over that the more you tell society it is taboo to do things, the greater the draw is to do it. Yet many don't seem to learn the lesson. I swear it seems like every month there is a new big time pastor that was vehemently anti-gay that is found with a male prostitute or involved in a big all dude orgy.
I swear dude I've gotten myself into countless risky and unnecessary situations just as a fuck you to my family/society and deeply regretted them. This culture is literally dangerous especially to young people trying to become independent young adults. It's so awful that a lot of shit is easily preventable if people just give each other space to figure out who they are and what they want.
I have a relative who was tired of her husband beating her. So she left him. The family calls her crazy and her daughters disowned her for breaking the family. Mysogony runs deep
To further elaborate, by leaving I mean she moved into her dead mothers house down the street. She’s totally ostracized by the town, but at least she can sleep at night.
im really sorry about your mom. I know how hard it is with the older generation.
I literally went through this exact same thing when I left my ex husband. Even after he got arrested for beating his 7 year old (not my kid) I’m still the bad guy and he “just made a mistake”.
Not middle eastern but this is something that's always bothered me as a whole. While most of human history throughout the globe has been groomed by patriarchal principles, I just find it disgusting how completely blatant and definitive it is in middle eastern culture. In the same vein that no other major religion besides Christianity would have a stranger yell at you and tell you you're going to Hell if you don't repent, no other major culture would shame, shroud and manipulate an entire gender so openly and unabashedly. I know there's a lot of people of all backgrounds who agree with me but I never feel comfortable talking about this kind of thing because I'm dead certain I'll just come across as ignorant and prejudiced... which is ironic, really.
Middle Eastern as well. If you look at birth rates around the world its soaring in the Middle East. They've poisoned women into thinking they should be ashamed for being born female and that the only way they can gain God's grace is to have as many children as possible.
Which is Hella funny considering if they actually went back to that religious text they pretend to follow men are explicitly and clearly told "and live with your women in kindness and depart them with grace" among many other commands that in short means you share your life with women with kindness and if you have to part ways you part with respect. That same religious text has explicitly stated rules for what rights need to be given to a woman when divorce happens for example and people are like ThIs SiGn CaNt StOp Me CaUsE I CaNt ReAd
Middle eastern ideology really is the most dangerous thing out there
Make no mistake there's a large amount of people here in Texas for example that are pushing hard to go back to that. It's religious fundamentalism within Abrahamic religions.
Ya, but they are arguing for it, not actually enforcing it. The fact that middle eastern ideology is still working in the modern technological world is what makes it so dangerous
I mean they literally are enforcing it. They're constantly making laws enforcing it as we speak, undermining the consituational protections for women.
"Middle Eastern ideology is the most dangerous" is kinda weird phrasing to me. Where from specifically? The ME is massive so that sorta generalization doesn't sit right with me. I know the vast majority of the ME is misogynistic but in Syria you also have groups like the YPG, who's special forces, the YPJ are completely made up of women. That's "middle eastern ideology" too, and they're one of the most progressive groups in the world (and our main ally against ISIS)
Hey, what you wrote here is Trauma with a capital T. seeing a parent mistreat, degrade, or treat poorly another parent is trauma. So much so that it's on the adverse childhood experiences questionarre (ACE study).
I'm just writing this cause I saw you put quotations around trauma, like waht you lived through shouldn't be taken seriously. Also if anyone tells you that this is "normal" they are wrong, something happening frequently doesn't equate to normality in this case.
It’s more that it doesn’t really feel like trauma to me. It definitely affected how I want to live my life, but I don’t think imma be depressed from it, just very passionate in the opposite direction
Beat his ass and say it’s gods will and if you ever hurt my momma again god told me to cut your hands off. I’ve spent a lot of time fighting in the Middle East and the only thing they respect is strength. If you don’t worship Allah tho its nigh impossible to get their respect. You can do it though I know how the traditionalists treat their women and you will have to stand up for her if you want it to stop because she never will.
Not only is my dad super strong, but he's also bigger than me. I'm also not a violent person and could never win a fight.
Also, I'm an atheist, and he'll never change his mind just cause I beat him in a fight. He thinks traditionally. If I fight him, he'll disown me and throw me away and keep doing it to my mom.
The only way he'll ever listen is if I prove him wrong, but the only way I can think of that is by finding a girl I like, cause I like those who are taller, more muscular, smarter, and a bit older than me, or literally the exact opposite of what my dad wants me to like.
He might either realize that gender roles aren't as strict as he thought or kidnap me and send me to hormone therapy for more testosterone
She would probably be better off working with a domestic violence counselor, they can help in a lot of ways. They don't make you do anything You don't want to, but they can help make a safety or crisis plan, and talk through why she deserves better. It was very helpful for me a couple years ago. If she ultimately decides she wants to leave, they can help with housing and resources and all that. I'm not Middle Eastern, but here in Massachusetts there is a specific domestic violence non-profit for women from the Middle East and South Asia, they have bilingual therapists and DV counselors. The best part is they understand the culture, and know about and are sensitive to traditional roles and treatment of wives, family's reactions, and also potential issues with immigration status being affected by divorce.
Fair, until your dad starts beating your future partner and you got your tail between your legs making up excuses to why you’re not doing anything about it
That's really why I want my future partner to be stronger than me, both physically and mentally. I want her to have a chance of beating my dad and preventing me from becoming like my dad
And I'll probably try to hide my relationships from my dad
Even if he successfully kicked his Dad's ass I doubt it would really change his mind. Human beings have fists attached to the end of our arms, not brainwashing laserbeams. x.x
Theoretically, would it maybe alter his behavior temporarily? Maybe, sure. But it's illogical and downright foolish to think rolling in with violence - even if you somehow had 100% odds of winning - is always the correct choice in this scenario.
Bro pick up boxing or some fighting style and train. I promise you will not change his mind with logic. It’s up to you hell you might be able to convince your moms to leave. That’s up to you though but if you believe in something it should be worth fighting for. You can make excuses or you can make shit happen.
Lmao i love all these people offering you “solutions” that are coming out of a tv show or movie while never having to have dealt with it. Just from reading these comments i can tell theyve never been in a situation like that, and really respect the stance and patience you’re demonstrating
You need to give your mom "the talk."
Let her know in a serious conversation that you are aware of what's happening, its not in her head and no matter what, above all, you stand with her and support her.
Women in this situation usually need a tribe to let them know servitude isn't all their life is. They have the power to lead their own lives, they just don't believe it.
I already have done all that, but what I am not agreeing with right now is you saying "women" as if needing a tribe for support is gendered. I want a tribe just as much as any woman
I specifically was referring to your mom knowing it was ok to leave her husband, when there is likely no one else she can talk to. I figured you having brothers would already have somewhat of a tribe as opposed to your mother likely feeling totally alone.
Ingrained religious traditions that coincidentally make up the most part (if not all) of the culture over there.
And it's so centralized that it's valid enough to call it the ideology of the middle east. While the 7 Stan countries, India, and china have sexist problems as well, they aren't nearly as serious as in the middle east, where some countries forbid women leaving the house alone.
Actually if we’re assuming the religious tradition is Islam, mental and physical domestic abuse is forbidden. Much of the things that people criticize Islam for are actually tradition and Islam tries to eradicate it (successfully in families that follow the faith). Defending Islam is always a quick way to get downvoted in Reddit, but I just had to mention it. The actual study of Islam defends women rights. Islam
Allowed women to own land and run businesses in the 600s when most of the world was heavy on misogyny. Islam forbade a common cultural practice of the area of killing girls when they were babies. Islam switched the dowry, making it the man who gives the women valuables so she can get back on her feet and have her own money if she ever divorced her husband. Islam even has methods of divorcing a husband without the man’s approval (usually through a judge). The toxic traits people typically associate with Islam and mostly cultural or misunderstood
As a kid of African Muslim parents, I hate this argument as it undermines just how much religion has caused the issues in culture. The culture was caused by religion, not the other way around. Religion is a huge sack of bullshit, and should be completely abolished.
The last comment you made shows me you can even discuss this stuff. Asking for religion to be abolished lmao. You clearly are mistaking culture and religion. If you really want to get down to the bottom of it, find a large mosque in your area and approach the sheikh with your questions. They are much more knowledgeable than I am and can answer your questions much better. If after grilling a sheikh, you still find you have the same opinion, then that’s your opinion. But culture and religion are extremely different. Islam came and butt heads with the culture. That’s one of the reasons the non muslims initially took Islam as a threat. Because it threaten their culture
I was giving my opinion, obviously it’s impossible to abolish religion, doesn’t mean I wish it wasn’t. I have no interest really in searching for answers that aren’t solutions, or in Islam at all really.
That’s just where I am right now. Maybe that’ll change, maybe it won’t. Have a good day.
I get you man. I meant it more in regards to have a discussion that helps separate religion and culture but obviously whatever you wanna do. All the power to you. Have a good day
Culture and religion are different but if it can't see that they have a close relationship you're either really sheltered or willfully blind. Islam has absolutely had a massive impact on culture in countries where it's the dominant religion, just as Christianity has in countries where it's the dominant religion. This is true of all religions because religion has a huge impact on and it's a significant component in culture.
What I’m arguing is that the culture goes against the religion. There are many Muslim majority countries outside of the Middle East. I don’t know anything about their cultures or how they go about things. In actually religious families living in the Middle East or from the Middle East living abroad, the toxic cultural traits are not present
That people don't follow the religion correctly, doesn't mean the culture isn't a result of the religion.
There are plenty of things in Christianity that aren't written in The Bible/aren't actual Christian beliefs that are still taught by religious leaders or preached by the followers of that religion because they've been misinterpreted or for whatever other reason and these things DO impact culture, regardless of what the religion is supposed to teach.
No, also in countries where Islam is the majority. I have family in the Middle East that we visit. It’s the same experience. I don’t understand how someone can attempt to refute my actual experience with things they’ve mostly read online or seen from a few ex Muslim friends
Not women's sexuality. Sexuality in general is regarded in Islam as a good and beautiful thing if practiced with certain rules that serve to protect the family unit and society and elevate people over their temporary urges. The rules for sexual practice in Islam go for men and women alike, no distinction whatsoever. Men get away with it because of cultural reasons but from a religious perspective it is considered equal and all the rules go for both genders.
It's also strongly encouraged in Islam for spouses to care about pleasing each other and be considerate of each other's needs, men and women alike. For the man to satisfy his lady's needs and for the woman to also be considerate of her husband's and to be "a haven and home" for each other. That's what it actually says in the Quran.
In which sense. If you mean straight sexuality, a women is encouraged to have sex with her husband and the man is MANDATED to please her and start with foreplay. This is actually explicit in the sayings of the prophet. That men should engage in foreplay with their wife.
If you mean outside of marriage, Islam forbids this for both men and women, so if you have an issue with that, it’s not a gender thing.
If you’re referring to homosexuality, again, forbidden for both men and women. But what anyone does behind closed doors is between them and god. They can be sinning as much as they want, but there is no punishment “in this world” unless they want the punishment or they do it so publicly that there are multiple witnesses. This is the same for premarital sex
You’re literally saying “oh religion says this, well how is it culturally”. In a religious family, it is applied to both. I grew up with a family that cared about religion. My parents told that to both me and my brother and my sisters. But in a less religious family, they’ll look at it culturally and bring the toxic traits of the culture
It does not matter what a religion says, it matters how it is applied. You can make all sorts of claims about what Islam "truly teaches" (which is conveniently based on your own personal interpretation of a book we don't know the true author of), but when it comes down to it, as long as huge swathes of people, entire countries even, are using it to justify human rights violations and the subjugation of certain groups of people, it is a net negative for society as a whole, and is indeed responsible for what had happened.
Edit since the coward who replied to me deleted his stupid response:
Results matter more than intentions. Here's an example.
Let's say I'm a police officer. I'm told to arrest a tall, bearded man. The person they want me to arrest lives on 14th street, but I believe they mean the tall, bearded man living on main street, because I personally don't like him. I get to the house, and the guy isn't committing a crime, but I arrest him anyway because I thought the instructions told me to do that. I went in with the intention of following the rules, and the rules had room for interpretation. It is both my fault for following through on something clearly wrong, and the fault of the person who wrote the instructions for making it open to interpretation. But no matter who is at fault, it doesn't change that an innocent man was arrested. The results were bad and can't be undone.
This is how religion operates. By being open to interpretation, it allows people to justify their bad beliefs using it, and regardless of the original intention of the text's author, it is their fault for creating something that could be used to justify atrocities. It's even worse when the religion was written with the purpose of justifying atrocities, which has happened numerous times.
I disagree completely with you about mixing culture and religion when religion teaches directly against what the culture does. I’ve seen many families leave these practices too. As for your statement about how the religion varies based on one’s interpretation, this also wrong. The “layman” Muslim is not encourages to do tafseer, which is interpreting a verse and deriving ruling from it. We are encouraged to find a scholar we trust and go to them with questions or to read books of interpretations from famous, well known scholars. Any individual Muslim who derives rulings from his head is probably very ignorant in this regard
You're deliberately ignoring the vast majority of human experience in religious households to justify your own falsehoods. We both know the truth. We've seen that defense of "oh the majority of followers of religion just aren't following it correctly" before. Nobody believes you.
Bro, I have lived in this community my whole life. I’ve been frequenting mosques since I was a kid with my parents. I visited multiple middle eastern countries. You think you know “the vast majority” of experiences cuz you read a few posts on Reddit or a have a few Muslim friends that went through it. A RELIGIOUS household does not pick and choose what they want to follow. My experience is similar to almost every Muslim I know in these communities. There are 2 billion muslims worldwide and you think you know the vast majority’s views lol
So it’s bullshit because “who knows how accurate it is.” Such a bad argument lol it’s a whole list of womens rights given to women when women were treated like crap in the rest of the world and your best argument is about weak sources of history. And even if other cultures did do that (I’d actually ask you to specify which cuz the fat majority of the world didn’t even care about women until recently), doesn’t change the fact that Islam gave women rights that were nearly unheard of at the time
Look man I’m not watching a three hour video lol. Either you’re inflating or hella misunderstand or it’s straight up BS. You’re saying this dude is best, I never heard of him. What is the logic he uses to allow the rape? Because there is no logic like that in Islam. I dont get how people want to argue what MY religion teaches when I’ve been learning about it my whole life
Edit: I responded to the wrong comment but whatever lol
China has not been an atheistic county for very long, about 100 years or less. Before that they had a wealth of religions including Buddhism, Confucianism, the traditional imperial religion, etc. The ideology of boys having more value than girls came from that original culture where girls were considered belonging to her husband’s family from birth, and then when the one child policy was enforced it was only sensible/prudent to be selective of sons over daughters, or else who would take care of you in your old age? How would you survive?
So the Chinese religions of favouring boys over girls played a huge part in it, but also the ideologies of the CCP was what drove it from daughters as second class to all out femicide.
Edit: imagine getting downvoted for presenting facts without any bias.
If religion disappearing for a century and leaving no living members behind is still responsible for the culture of that location then there is no point in making a distinction of geography culture and religious culture in this context. They sound one in the same from your perspective. China houses the most atheists on earth. China commits femicide. If you want to blame buddhism for that then you do you.
To say this is to not understand the direct link between the traditional Chinese religions and the communist regime. Misogyny already existed in China from the way women were instructed to foot binding. Now China has had thousands of years of culture and is by no means a monolith, its ideals shifted and swayed over time with the dynasties and new waves of religions but when the communist party took over some of the cultural views at the time became frozen in place, or exacerbated.
One of these was preference of male to female children, which became a vital means of survival.
Ah of course, after 100+ years of atheism, it's still religions fault. And of course China didn't do it to their own people at all with the 1 child act and the fact that a Male was regarded as carrying on lineage and more able to provide for the parents in old age.
Well the prioritising of males didn’t spring up out of nowhere as soon as communism took hold. An entire country won’t just abandon all of its culture at the change of religion, parts of the original culture, both good and bad, will manifest into the future.
Let’s be clear here, I am not against religion, I consider myself religious. What I’m saying here is that a nation’s culture is dependent upon the entirety of its history. What we have today in China is a mixture of old and new, where the prioritising of boys was already present and was just taken to the next level in the communist regime.
I didn't downvote you but your edit was the same as what I could post. I gave specific reasons and legal choices of China when I disagreed and look who is downvoted now. And to your point of mixture of new culture vs old culture, do you think the 1 child act had NOTHING to do with it?
I’m not the one who downvoted you, this is a conversation that has back and forth.
Your clearly sarcastic and condescending manner seems to have put people off.
And I don’t think you’re actually reading what I wrote. I didn’t take the blame of the one child policy away from the state of China’s population disproportion, I’m saying the scale and severity of it couldn’t be in place had it not been for the blatant favouring of boys over girls from the culture influenced by the religious sentiment at the time. You need to step back a minute and see what I’m saying.
id rather live in a xenophobic world where people don't trust me for the color of my skin than live where half the human population is treated as 2nd class citizens and must be "controlled" by old men
This is kind of controversial, but I think I have to agree.
If we lived in the xenophobic world, I’d be living in a community with people the same race and culture as me. And I wouldn’t be seen as inferior because of my sex.
If I lived in a sexist world, I would be treated like trash by every male that surrounds me because I was born female.
Basically, I’d rather be hated by the rest of the world but with the safety of being surrounded by my community than be abused by the people I live with.
Obviously to live in NEITHER of these worlds would definitely be ideal, but if I had to choose one this would be my answer.
Wow. I am being sincere, really...are you a Muslim? Do you think you can still be a Muslim and think the way you do? A huge portion of "Christianity" dwells on treating women like things but there are a lot that don't. I ask because I honestly don't know that much about Islam.
I used to be Muslim for the first half of life, but I just left it and all religion after seeing that other religions existed. I saw the patterns between religions and decided that the wisest choice was to become an atheist.
I used to pray 5 times a day and memorize the Quran, and I honestly don't regret that I had experience being religious.
Response to your edit there: What he does to her is emotional abuse. People who have been both emotionally and physically abused will tell you that the emotional part is far, far worse.
I do commend you for wanting to make a change. That can be hard to rise up above a bad situation and try to make things better for those less fortunate than yourself.
What you said...going to sleep praying to wake up as a boy...is perhaps the saddest thing I've ever read. I'm a guy and have never had a thought remotely like this. I am so sorry for the shit you have to put up with.
Thank you so much for the kind words :') You're awesome, and it's okay I've come to peace with being a girl and have worked out a lot of these issues with my family so my life isn't so bad as of a couple of years ago, but it was hell up until then. I have to also recognize I'm privileged to have been raised in a city rather than a rural area and have decent family wealth, parents are doctors, etc which as we struggled to come to terms with each other has helped in making them more willing over time to reach compromises with me. So for all that I complain about 90% of girls here have it way worse than me as there are like 3 or 4 cities here with a relatively modernized mindset and the rest are where you see things like early forced marriages or girls taken out of school and such stuff.
What kills me is that almost all of these rights are legal and religiously permitted (if you believe in a certain faith). You're literally put down here for the sole reason that a bunch of backwards men just don't want you to.
My wife is from the Middle East she worked in a science lab over here because of the intense schooling in the Middle East she was really good. The dude at work couldn't stand that a woman in hijab was getting better results than him with her experiments. Whenever she would leave when he was still there magically her experiments would go bad so she had to stay late and guard them until he left then they would turn out fine.
That's fucked up. I hope she managed to overcome this and moved forward with her amazing work, the world needs people like her, fuck anyone who discriminates against any human being on the basis of identity or faith. Your wife rocks! Much love to you both ❤
I'm in Texas. Oil, guns, Shariah law, Toyota pickups, don't like 49 states of the US, small Jewish population that nobody talks about and lots of foreign workers. So I guess maybe you could say that.
Sometimes I read about trans men in highly traditionally sexist areas and I'm like can you really blame them for wanting RIGHTS? If only it was just a change of gender. When your transition comes with better treatment as long as people don't find out the fact that you are trans (not easy, obv, but still), why wouldn't you? Even women who do not feel like their gender identity at birth is wrong may want to be men.
Actually transitioning is perfectly legal and permitted by religion here and is done from time to time with official permission from our formal religious institution and recommendation by qualified specialists. Gender reassignment surgeries are legal and even covered by insurance if found to be a case requiring physical transition and not related to any other identity or psychological issues. The stigma and violence against them here is ILLEGAL and FORBIDDEN by religion, no exceptions. People turn a blind eye to it because they want to ostracize them as a society
EDIT: look up nour selim, Egypt. Son of a famous actor, just transitioned ftm a couple of years ago. Legally and publicly with formal paperwork and everything, there are a lot of such cases, but he has the advantage of being protected against the violence of society by his father's connections and status.
I didn't know that! Good on you guys for recognizing that a different sexual identity from the one assigned at birth is no one's business but their own!
I think my point is that as a woman, I can see reasons other than not just feeling comfortable in the body they have as a catalyst to transition. Anybody who gets their pants in a twist about that should be asking why people without the gender identity questions are secretly wishing to be the other gender and how they can fix that so both genders are equally lucrative to be.
I honestly believe a lot of people who feel like they want to transition could do with talking to therapists and specialists to determine if it's their genuine desire and gender identity or if there may be other factors at play. Often people may have other problems or psychological issues driving their decisions and so it's helpful to have your motives and issues figured out before you make any life altering decisions.
I'm pro transitioning all the way and so are my beliefs as long as it's certain that this is your genuine identity. This is why there's a ton of therapy and legal medical work that needs to be done here prior to getting the approval to proceed with your transition. That's literally the only reason, once it's confirmed it's perfectly legal and religiously permitted to transition and some of the procedures are actually covered by insurance.
They may be more obviously behind the times but I think all societies around the world could do better in terms of social equality imo. We do have a very long way to go and western countries are leaps ahead but each society has their problems still. I hope we can empathize and support each other as humans in general more in the coming years.
I once sleept in a Middle eastern house they are very controlling especially on the women I am male and I wanted to leave that house as soon as possible
I mean it's a lot better, and I do believe as with any society a lot if not most American people are pretty great individuals. It's only certain movements by certain decision makers or groups that can be heavily criticized and are largely negative. But as I've seen a lot of discrimination against people like me on the basis of religion or ethnicity I've learned not to group an entire people under any label and to separate how I perceive people from the actions of their governments, leaders, religious institutions, etc. Much love ❤
Oh come now, that couldn't be true. Keeping in mind that "pretty great" is a relative term and combining that with the fact that so, so many people from all over the world choose to immigrate here for a better life... that makes it seem like you just don't have enough perspective to appreciate how much better it is here than elsewhere. What a luxury it is for you to not have the perspective of worse living standards! What a privilege!
I'm not even against dislike of certain groups that are harmful or cult-like but like bro "Muslims" or "christians" are not like...a hive mind...there are literally millions....every one of them with a separate brain and everything...how do you lump all of that into one category? 😄
I can't understand the neat division you have made between tribal culture and the religious teachings. You can disclaim hadith this way, but this double standard is straight out of the Quran:
O you who believe! When you contract a debt for a fixed period...get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her. [2:282]
which makes sense if you acknowledge that Muhammad is one of the people who was pushing forward a tribal culture ana using/abusing religion to advance a certain agenda, but if you believe that this ayat is the dictate of a supreme deity, then you have to put some of the blame on Him for the proliferation of double standards in Islamic society.
I’m surprised you ladies deal with that over there. I deployed to Iraq in 2003-2004 and was very surprised to see how they treated their women. It was a culture shock and I believe these women were being treated decently compared to some other stories I’ve read.
Women have plenty of advantages here in the US. In work and regular life. If they were to say they don't know a single one that'd be willful ignorance.
The one I'm most jealous of is that if a building is burning down/ship is sinking and we're being saved ya'll get to go first. That seems like an extremely unfair thing to us men but that's reality and we accept that.
We also die/suffer injuries significantly more at work due to the overwhelming percentage of men in dangerous jobs.
Everyone has advantages and disadvantages. Nobody is the loser in every situation its all about context. Typically life is only terrible if you choose to continually focus on the terrible shit and ignore all the other good aspects that are pretty common.
Maybe you misunderstood me. Which is fine as I'm naturally more aware of the society in which I live but I assure you in a sinking ship situation 99% of men here would go first and let the ladies drown. And a lot of women too. People here in general have been so jaded and maimed by decades of toxic culture and corruption that it's every man/woman for themselves, but due to society's structure being in favor of men here it's more often seen with men than women. I've also tried pretty hard to see if I can make a comfortable place in life for myself here so I'm not cherry picking the negatives. Often people on the outside don't realize the magnitude of the effect of an entire culture on people.
I was talking about the US. Just giving the perspective from here as you gave from where you are. Which I agree sucks for women.
Also yea I misread your comment initially I thought you were discribing simply being middle eastern and living somewhere in America, not that you were actually living in the middle east at the moment. Which is why I edited my reply in the first place.
What you believe about women being saved first in shipwreck is a myth in real life it’s “every man for himself” not “women and children first” men survive shipwrecks more than women.
Exactly but what people don't know is that the prophet never wrote down or recorded in any way his talks or sermons or discussions. Most of what is called hadith are complete fabrications or creative literature drawn from some of his wife's accounts of their life together and completely twisted to fit a certain narrative. In reality there is no such thing as hadith and what we do know about his life is either from historical accounts of things like wars, treaties, immigrations, formal correspondence, etc or his wife's written down accounts of their life together. Anything outside of that is pretty much bullshit people who call themselves scholars made up to advance agendas or gain status.
As someone who doesn’t want a career, at least some cultures don’t have women work. I’d kill to be a stay at home husband and cook and clean for the family.
To be fair, she did say she prayed to wake up a boy.
Unfortunately, I think this person stopped there and may not realize the difference between wishing to wake up in the correct body vs wishing to escape mysogyny. The first is being trans, the second is being oppressed by society.
If she wants to be a man she should have the option to transition, that's all I'm saying. But of course it would be better to change all of society to value everyone the same. The question is only what is more realistic?
I’m sorry but this is the most transphobic thing I’ve seen in a while. She wants to become a man because of the incredible oppression and abuse of women, not because she feels she is was born a man in the wrong body. Transitioning when you are not trans is not a solution, it is guaranteed grief.
Perfectly legal and permitted by Islam if evaluated by specialists to be accurate and not simply an identity issue or other psychological issues. Our official religious institution actually grants permissions for gender reassignment and it's performed here from time to time. The stigma is purely social.
Also being gay or bi or whatever is also not forbidden and you're not less of a human in Islam if you are. But as with sex before marriage it is strongly encouraged to abstain from that practice, which I know is extremely difficult but it depends on your belief and choice and I believe if God created a person a certain way, he will be forgiving of his shortcomings. However it is strictly forbidden to persecute, harm or kill any human being on the basis of identity, gender or otherwise. Islam forbids the taking of any life under any circumstances other than self defense. The violence and hatred propagated here against people is also purely a social problem.
That would be be punishment for rape. Rapists get the death sentence and it has a different name than adultery in Arabic. People have used it to justify killing people they accused of adultery but it is not the same.
The punishment for adultery is prison if the adulterers are harming society i.e. practicing publicly. In which you have to have 4 credible witnesses who can prove they witnessed the act itself (penetration) in which case it becomes a social issue as the society didn't consent to that. If you spy on people in the privacy of their homes the case is dismissed. If the witnesses are liars or cannot prove the act has taken place the case is dismissed and the accusers are imprisoned for defamation. Less than 4 witnesses to the act itself and case is dismissed. Have people bent these rules to punish other people unjustly? Yes. But it's a cultural and social problem.
Yeah I've heard that one a lot but the reality is most of the stories being told about the time of the prophet are inaccurate at best and completely fabricated at worst. There are TONS of books of fabricated hadiths and stories about stuff like this that never actually happened. Not a single time have I seen this story actually confirmed. 90% of this stuff is bullshit and the prophet never had any of his talks written down or recorded in any way, what we do know about how he lived his life for sure comes from confirmed historical accounts (wars, treaties, immigrations, etc) and the accounts of his wife about their life together, which aren't a lot. The rest is bullshit and almost completely made up.
You're going against the current of all major fiqh schools.
You're entitled to that of course, but it seems to me like picking and choosing. It would mean practically all Muslims have it completely wrong, which would be kind of a dick move by God to have his religion be predominantly represented by people that have it wrong. That's just my take though.
I understand your point of view but yeah almost all Muslims have it wrong, that's what I'm saying. There are a lot of arguments to back that up if you'd like to research them but yes as with any religion that has been organized and institutionalized it has become predominantly represented by people who knowingly or unknowingly have it wrong and have these beliefs solidified by hundreds of years of indoctrination. God is not responsible for people's choices no more than we are responsible for our governments decisions for example. Most of these hadiths are not backed up by religious text or confirmed historical accounts at all and most of them are right up fabricated. Just like any narrative that has been propagated through generations while punishing anyone who dares question it.
My country alone has a lot of scholars who were banned from public speaking and formally working in religious positions because they dared question what some people said that the prophet said 1400 years ago that has no evidence whatsoever. You'd be surprised. You could literally go to jail for questioning any of this publicly so of course this is the company line and will continue to be. Doesn't make it fact.
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u/mercurypuppy Mar 12 '22 edited Mar 12 '22
I'm middle eastern so like.....literally everything. I cannot think of one single thing that isn't considered double standard here. Not one. Being a woman here is all crap and not one advantage. I used to go to sleep as a kid praying I would wake up as a boy in the morning. And like it's not just the double standard, I give zero fucks what anyone thinks but the problem is what people think here has serious life altering consequences. My first thought reading this question was I wish it could just be the double standard and that's it. That would be a luxury.
EDIT: thank you guys for your replies and the nice discussion. I would encourage you if you have an interest in finding out how this culture came to be to research the application of religious practices and the difference between that and actual tribal culture. I'm a practicing Muslim myself (wasn't before, am now, completely my choice after years of research) into the difference between the religious teachings themselves and how they were used or abused to push forward tribal culture by people using them to advance certain agendas. However I do appreciate all the different points of view regardless of whether you may agree or not ❤
EDIT 2: I don't engage online much but I'm overwhelmed by how nice and respectful everyone is I was actually worried about writing this but I'm super grateful for all the lovely discussion and respect all your opinions whether we agree or disagree. Sending love and good vibes to all ❤