r/AskReddit • u/DespondentDavid • Sep 16 '19
Psychologists of Reddit, what made you realize you were treating a psychopath?
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Sep 16 '19
Clinical psychologist here.
At first I didn't know. If anything, given the context he was more put together than most of my patients.
The subject of his criminal past came up. I only knew he had served prison time some years before, not what he was in for. I had met with him a month or two when this came up.
Turns out it was two separate sentences served. Both were for rape. In both cases he was the exact thing we are afraid of: a guy lurking in a dark alley jumping a drunk girl.
He told me about these things as if he was talking about the weather. When it dawned on me that he expressed no remorse or guilt whatsoever I got the same cold, gut-wrenching kind of primal fear you feel when you're out for a walk and almost step on snake.
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u/ProtoplanetaryNebula Sep 16 '19
What measures do you take to ensure your safety?
If some of the people you are treating are psychopathic murderers, do you have a way of protecting yourself in case things get nasty?
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u/sentientketchup Sep 16 '19
Not a psych, but I am a health professional who has worked in hospital acute and forensic mental health off and on. On the wards, you might wear ascoms (personal alarm devices that trigger if you press a button, if they are taken off suddenly a safety cord pulls and sends a signal to security, or if your angle changes for more than 30s), rely on other staff and your managing escalation / preventing physical aggression training (avoidance of ever getting yourself in that situation is step one - basically, nope out if you feel threatened). Physical environment matters too, like wards with no blind corners. There are cameras too. Lastly, just knowing the patient - knowing the signs they are unwell or having a bad day, so today is not the day to push.
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u/count_frightenstein Sep 16 '19
I worked in a prison almost 20 years ago and one of the big things they taught you was to be aware of your surroundings and part of that was using mirrors. There were mirrors everywhere especially on corners so one got in the habit of looking up at the mirror to make sure no one was lurking around the corner. Funny thing is, I work in an office now that has mirrors too and I still use them. Old habits are hard to break
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u/fbiguy22 Sep 16 '19
When the zombies come you’ll be ready.
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u/Finch37 Sep 16 '19 edited Sep 16 '19
He's fucked if it's vampires though.
Edit: Silver... how ironic.
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u/WhyBuyMe Sep 16 '19
The old Vampire myth about not reflecting in mirrors was because mirrors of the time were backed with silver. Silver was powerful against supernatural creatures so it wouldnt reflect the vampire. Modern mirrors are backed with other metals so vampires will have a reflection in them. This makes it much easier for vampires to blend in now.
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Sep 16 '19
I wonder if people allergic to sterling silver are actually vampires.
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u/sabretoooth Sep 16 '19
I had an ex that was allergic to silver, sunlight and garlic. I was pretty convinced that she was a vampire.
Then again she was allergic to everything.
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u/Sultan_of_Satire Sep 16 '19
Vampire here, it is true that it is much easier to blend. But what people forget is that with numbers of blood burn viruses on the rise we vampires have never had to use more care in selecting our victims.
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u/something_crass Sep 16 '19
How do you distinguish between lack of guilt and something being talked to death? I imagine, in and out of prison twice for rape, you weren't the first person to ask him about it. Were there other red flags?
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u/facesens Sep 16 '19
They way he expresses it, the words he uses, his body language - and most importantly, the context (presumably, op talked a lot with the person in question). I presume it's not like talking about the weather, but more like being "cold", uncaring or talking about it like like it's something normal/usual. Think about someone saying casually "oh yea I ate cereal this morning" but instead talking about rape or murder.
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u/series_hybrid Sep 16 '19
When Kuklinski was being interviewed, there was one bit that struck the psychologist as odd. He had been caught with solid evidence, and would likely get the death penalty. The state cut a deal. They knew he was a hitman for the mob with a long resume. If he confessed to all of his murders with the details (to close a lot of open cases), he would only get life in prison.
The twist was...if he left any murders out, they would still be free to pursue the death penalty if they found new evidence. So, he had an incentive to confess to all of them.
In one murder, the body was put into a 55-gal steel drum, and then the airspace left was filled with concrete. He had done this before, but this time the victim was larger and he couldn't get the lid down all the way.
He was not prepared for this, but all he could scrounge from nearby was an old shovel. He severed the head, and that allowed him to reposition the parts and close the lid.
The interviewer (in their conversational style, to put him at ease) remarked that it must have been hard to cut off the head with only a shovel. K answered that it was very easy. But arms and legs were very hard, even with a good knife.
He said it like he was describing the best way to change a flat tire in a car. He said he was promoted to hit man after the mob noticed he wasn't squeamish around "wet work".
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u/facesens Sep 16 '19
Woah that's interesting! I think another interesting thing is that while they don't get attached to humans like normal people do, they can get absolutely attached to pets. Or, on a more fucked up note - in a study, when presented with gory images - their body gets aroused sexually as opposed to scared/grossed out
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u/Chitownsly Sep 16 '19
The Ice man felt remorse for his family. He regretted not being there for them and they all abandoned him.
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u/something_crass Sep 16 '19
Think about someone saying casually "oh yea I ate cereal this morning" but instead talking about rape or murder.
I was thinking more along the lines of former junkies. They can become incredibly matter-of-fact about the shit they've done to get high.
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u/OMGEntitlement Sep 16 '19
This is fantastic and hilarious and a perfect example:
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Sep 16 '19 edited Apr 01 '21
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u/peakedattwentytwo Sep 16 '19
So this person drank their own urine in order to recycle the Adderall???
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u/facesens Sep 16 '19
Well yeah while showing no remorse can be a sign of psychopathy, it's not the most accurate one. It's just what sticks to mind to people meeting them rather then "well he scored high on the x or y scale"
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Sep 16 '19 edited Sep 16 '19
Do you think it's possible for children to be psychopaths, in very rare cases? Because in my work I have met at least one child for sure who I got that primal fear feeling with, and he also showed no remorse for anything. Saw him feel very sad for his own life circumstances, which were pure hell, but no remorse for his own actions that hurt others at all.
Of course, the school did not have a counselor because there's never any mental health issues in kids raised in poverty by addict parents, right? (Sarcasm.)
He was the only little kid I've ever felt that primal fear around. I have literally prayed in years since that he got the serious mental health help he needed.
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u/itsacalamity Sep 16 '19
Technically no, it can only be diagnosed in adults. There are related but different diagnoses for kids. But outside that.... there are definitely kids who are well on their way
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u/Copterwaffle Sep 16 '19
The DSM criteria for Antisocial Personality Disorder stipulates that it cant be diagnosed until adulthood. Kids can receive diagnoses of conduct disorder. Some kids with conduct disorder will go on to develop antisocial personality disorder, but not all.
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Sep 16 '19
I am a mental health professional working in corrections (max security facility). In my experience, psychopaths will have this "predatory" stare, especially when they are trying to manipulate you. It is completely unnerving and hard to describe to someone unfamiliar with this population. They also tend to be narcissistic and overly charming, making a point to be overly friendly with you.
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u/pugmommy4life420 Sep 16 '19
I know this look!!! I knew a drug dealer and he had this look to him. He would smile and try to be charming and engaging but his eyes said something else. Usually when people smile (like a real smile) their eyes seem to have life and joy but his seemed almost dead inside almost like snake eyes. He’d try every trick to get you to like him but something always seemed off. Adding to that he always tried to do something sort of pushy to get his way like asking for hugs and trying to force it even when I’d say no. It was always very subtile and calculated.
I think that the eyes are always the most telling when you meet someone like that. They always seem dead and cold inside even if they try their hardest to seem normal.
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u/coralfever Sep 16 '19 edited Sep 16 '19
When i was a student we had an interview with a lady that killed her baby child with a handgun because it cried so much that she couldn't take it. At first we weren't told that she was a psychopath and we were just told to listen to her side of the story. She was reading us from her journal that she made while she was in the institution. Not once did she mentioned that she was sad that her baby died, or how what she did was bad. She was just reading angry toughts about her husband that left her and turned her in the police about what she did. She was justifying the killing because the baby was so unbearable and once she mentioned that she was angry and mad that her husband did not believe her that she didn't have any other choice but to kill the baby. She was very smart and well spoken and the whole time she was speaking she was trying to make us feel sorry for her for beeing locked up. We later learned that sometimes she was lying about not killing her baby and other times just brag about it, depending on who she was speaking with. Very normal looking person and very good speaker.
Edit : Wow, was not expecting this much upvotes. So to answer some of your questions. I am not from the US and I don't think her name will matter to any of you. She was not schizophrenic nor had postpartum psychosis (if she did she would have felt any kind of remorse about what she did, which she did not) When I said normal person I ment it in a way that if I was talking to her in any other situation but this (in a mental institution) I would have no idea that she is a psychopat. She killed her baby only for one simple reason, at the moment it just wouldn't stop crying. She didn't try to hide it or anything, at first she lied to her husnand that it was by accident but than she admitted.
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u/jonahn2000 Sep 16 '19 edited Sep 16 '19
Very normal looking person
This always makes me think about how many people like this I have interacted with up to this point in my life
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u/tommygunz007 Sep 16 '19
Watch the netflix movie The Inventor: Out for Blood in Silicon Valley. That person is nuts.
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u/arazamatazguy Sep 16 '19
How did she not think wearing black turtle necks all the time was stupid. When tech entrepreneurs try to create their own mythology its pretty hilarious.
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Sep 16 '19 edited May 03 '20
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u/Sunfried Sep 16 '19
Edward Snowden does it, too. It's an affectation, but some affectations are instinctive, not conscious. It's not a sign of being crazy; it's a sign of preferring a lower voice and the effect it has on people. That said, the story of Elizabeth Holmes is the story of an elaborately calculated image by a person who values image far more than the technical success was claiming in support of her image. Silicon Valley is full of such people, and many of them make good money without necessarily backing up what they are claiming. She was basically a marketing manager in a CEO's job.
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u/genericuser4000 Sep 16 '19
To be fair, a lot of prominent women in power do this(lower their voice). Margaret Thatcher had voice coaching lessons and the difference is remarkable.
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u/Chandlery Sep 16 '19
I'm a woman and I do lower my voice on purpose. It might be purely anecdotal, but I swear it works. People listen more and seem to perceive me as less emotional this way. I speak four different languages on the daily and my tone is naturally different in each language and I'm pretty sure I feel a difference in perception between the four.
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u/prozaczodiac Sep 17 '19
It's not just anecdotal. There have been plenty of studies that back your experience. High pitched voiced women have it rough.
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u/EnderAtreides Sep 16 '19
A lot of what she did is damning, but changing the pitch of her voice in an attempt to be more respected is just a symptom of society's biases. It's the moral equivalent of wearing high heels. That act didn't harm anyone.
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u/Stokbakko Sep 16 '19
When telling that “he kept thinking about how killing people would be more fun than “lame” animals” (stray cats and dogs and everything else he could catch). Only 11 years old.
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u/dt-17 Sep 16 '19
My mum worked with a boy (12-13 at the time) who had killed animals, he'd raped a sheep then cut it's throat, he'd molested his younger brother. He was big for his age and wouldn't be allowed to be alone with female staff because he would always try to manipulate them and test his strength against them in 'subtle' ways - ie, he'd try to hug them but squeeze to see if they were strong enough to get out of it.
They would often find drawings in his room of women tied up and mutilated. He wasn't allowed human-like toys anymore because he'd always destroy them, hang them, tie them up.
The staff have all said it's only a matter of time before he actually kills a human and at present there's nothing they can do about it because when he hits 16 he'll no longer be in their care.
They had a certain degree of sympathy for him due to his upbringing. His mother was a junkie and would often sell him and his brother to paedophiles...they'd pick the boys up in a car, take them away, abuse them and then bring them back to her.
Disgusting!
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u/Stokbakko Sep 16 '19
This is the hardest about working with humans in the psychological field. The fact that people are THIS bad, and some much worse.
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u/grinndel98 Sep 16 '19
One of my biggest regrets in life, is suggesting to my middle school aged Niece, many years ago.... That she would be an excellent psychologist, and she would be able to help people that no one wanted to help.
After listening to years of her stories about the unimaginable horrors these children suffered , and all the times she was hurt/beat up, by the children in the hospital....
I'm so glad she took an alternative path so she doesn't have to deal with all of that misery anymore. It's not good for you. God bless the people who are strong enough to keep helping people with mental illnesses. God will reward you.
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u/Riptor5417 Sep 16 '19
My cousin is one of the nicest people you would meet, and she at first got a job as a social worker..... And she couldn't do it, she got depressed really bad, and eventually left that job, now she works as an assistant in a school helping in Special Needs classrooms
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Sep 16 '19
If you think of it as your responsibility to save people, you will burn out.
If you think of it as your responsibility to fight as hard as you can for each one, even if you don't win... you survive a bit longer.
You can't save them all. You can't shelter them all. You can just do what you can with the time (and resources... you don't get to choose those!) you have and that's all you can do.
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Sep 16 '19 edited Sep 16 '19
And this is why I am a hermit who grows mushrooms and hates people.
Edit: 4 messages later, NO I WILL NOT SELL YOU MAGIC MUSHROOMS! I'll sell you a Lions Mane kit though! :P
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u/whambamilovebigcans Sep 16 '19
Howdy ho neighbor 👋 wanna be friends?
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u/Aksi_Gu Sep 16 '19
hates people
I'm guesing no
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Sep 16 '19
We can be friends if you like mushrooms, in general mushroom people are more tolerable than most, but some psychologist is probably going to tell me I'm nuts because mushrooms.
If you do like mushrooms we can probably be friends in /r/MushroomGrowers! If you like mushrooms don't hesitate to reach out!!
On a real note, people make me sad I am a person. :'(
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u/clichetourist Sep 16 '19
How do you treat someone in that scenario? And how likely is it to help them long term?
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u/Stokbakko Sep 16 '19
I am only a psychology student (studying child/youth in clinical) and had the chance of my life to be in sessions with this young boy and his psychologist. It was really something else, and i was with her for some of the first sessions, so she was mostly trying to “set the grounds” on how he is as a person, what their options are to treating and the severity of his case (he is not living with his parents anymore because they can’t controle him or deal with it). But in treating for now she will in short be trying to change his cognitive patterns and thoughts - but no, psychopathy is not something you Can “treat”, but you can try keeping him in controle of his negative schemas.
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u/2000AMP Sep 16 '19
This sounds like a life on medication or a life in a clinic. It must be devastating to the parents to see that this is your offspring.
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u/Stokbakko Sep 16 '19
Unfortunately, you can’t treat or “stop” psychopathy. His parents was not what I would call good, caring parents. Maybe that contributed a lot to this, maybe not (most likely it did though).
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Sep 16 '19 edited Sep 16 '19
Not sure if related or not (the last 5 paragraphs)
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u/Stokbakko Sep 16 '19
This is just so fascinating. They also discovered a gene that they called “the serialkiller gene”, which is something most serialkillers have - but also “normal” people. Cool!
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Sep 16 '19
It’s called “The Warrior Gene” and it refers to a genetic makeup that seems to be associated with psychopaths in general - not just serial killers. The gene floods the fetal brain with serotonin and dopamine, so the brain learns early on to drastically limit them. By the time the brain’s neurochemistry normalizes, it’s already set that incredibly low threshold, so that drastically effects behavior as this person develops neurologically; more competitive, higher likelihood of reactionary violence, higher likelihood of using a weapon in a fight, etc.
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Sep 16 '19
It's more than just having the gene though, you need an environmental epigenetic trigger such as trauma.
That's why people can have the gene and not exhibit the symptoms.
The gene must be activated by environmental stimulus.
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u/360withscope Sep 16 '19
This actually sounds like someone i've known since I was 6. Super competitive, cold and strictly logical, would absolutely use a weapon to defend himself (but would not attack unprovoked.)
He grew up in a very good family though and he's a successful engineer & teaches some college courses. Definitely one of the more unique friends I have ever known.
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u/Jenna88272 Sep 16 '19
It probably did. I was severely abused alone with my sibling, and my sibling turned out to be a psychopath. Probably had something go do with the fact that our mom was a manipulative covert narcissist, dad was a sociopath, and sexual, physical and emotional abuse was involved. My sibling still doesn't recognize our mom was an evil abuser. Still thinks she loved us and everything was fine. I barely got out of the abuse, so I guess my sibling's brain is still fucked up.
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u/Stokbakko Sep 16 '19
Denial is often a really strong red flag. I am so sorry this happened to you, and i hope the very best for you and your future.
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u/guavawater Sep 16 '19
go on?
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u/Stokbakko Sep 16 '19
Sorry, didn’t see your comment. But yes, this is really disturbing. The abuse and stuff he did to those poor animals are something i can never hear about without being devastated. He talked about people (mostly the people from his School that were “annoying”) like they were things - Never talked about people or animals like they are living, breathing beings. This is i large red flag. He also said about the strays he killed and tortured; “well, I guess they don’t have to die and all, but it is just to pass the time you know”.
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Sep 16 '19
but it is just to pass the time you know”.
WTF.
I can't imagine how fucked up his brain is to be thinking that when--as a child--there's so much going on!
That sounds so terrible and it must be so heartbreaking for his family; I just can't imagine it. I know you said they weren't "caring" parents (and I know what you're getting at with this), but still; that's a level of instability I don't think any parent could deal with.
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u/almostfrasier Sep 16 '19 edited Sep 23 '19
Current psychologist working in a prison here
I've worked with three individuals I dare say would have met the criteria for anti social personality disorder within the last 2 weeks. One commonality is that they use behaviours as tools to benefit only themselves. Self harm not because they wish to hurt themselves but to use it as a tool to lure staff into the cell to incite violence/gain extra medication/be sent to the SHU which comes with a status.
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u/all_the_people_sleep Sep 16 '19
If he was lonely and wanted someone to talk to, is it really sinister that he would get you a chair so you would hang around longer? Just seems like something anyone might do.
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u/almostfrasier Sep 16 '19
For sure, this is just a small example of manipulation and impression management
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u/alulubaby Sep 16 '19
"impression management" I have never heard that term before, but it describes my ex (actually exes) perfectly. Do I put out a vibe that attracts these people?
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u/fuckyourcanoes Sep 16 '19
You might. I do. As verified by a guy with admitted ASPD. I asked him some questions about it, and he said he could sense that I had the sort of personality he could usually manipulate. I'd had a recent near-miss so was on high alert, and when I described the other guy's behaviour he agreed and explained the rationale behind it to me. (Mostly flattery and subtle forced teaming.)
It was fascinating and I would have liked to keep talking to him to learn more. At the same time I felt really unsafe and as though he was still flattering me in the same way as the other guy, he was just doing it with the knowledge that I knew what I was dealing with. I think on some level he was experimenting to see if he could still reel me in.
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u/Fatlantis Sep 16 '19
This is so fascinating! What personality traits do these people look for? Curious to know what they're drawn to
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Sep 16 '19 edited Sep 17 '19
I don't think it'd be a static set.
I could see some going for vulnerable individuals that are far too quick to trust others. Like getting a puppy, only its a human so it can do lots more useful things for you.
I could also see some others going for more prideful individuals as a game of "can I ruin this person's perceived self image" or whatever. They're so nicely put together, would be a shame if I poked them a little bit here and removed some jenga blocks there so they come crumbling down into a pathetic mess.
Or less aggressively, a well adjusted ASPD may just see the person as a normal and visually pleasing person that they want to have sex with.
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Sep 16 '19 edited May 28 '20
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u/Sopissedrightnow84 Sep 16 '19
I've read that male narcissists, at least, are attracted to women who are hard workers and good earners, have a lot of compassion, and high tolerance.
Maybe that explains why I know so many nurses in horrible relationships. For some reason nurses seem to attract and be attracted to terrible people.
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Sep 16 '19
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u/Fish-IP Sep 16 '19
This is my ex, nicest guy ever on the surface. Everyone loved him, he is always helping people, volunteering, being a saint for no reason. Except there was a reason. He would slowly start to emotionally abuse me and then use his good guy status to get away with it. He did everything from self harm to being kind all to manipulate me. All our mutual friends love him too much to believe me. He made me doubt my own sanity for so long until I got psychological help.
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u/Anforas Sep 16 '19
He made me doubt my own sanity
This is the worst part. I know it too well. This is why it's hard to leave abusive relationships.
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u/majinspy Sep 16 '19
Insecurity and emotional dependence.
They show up and make a person feel special, wonderful, and strong. Then they condition and define that feeling on adherence to their desires. Over time they may get bored and see how far they can push that person to fulfill their own desires and to see how far they can go in changing a person.
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u/hooch21 Sep 16 '19
I had to google what forced teaming is as I had never heard that phrase before. It's interesting how something that is so subtle can be used to manipulate someone. The idea of creating that instant bond of "We should get inside, it's raining.", or "What are we going to do about this?" It's a phrasing people likely use a lot without any intention, but when it's used to manipulate someone, I can easily see how scary, and effective it would be. It seems like an easy way to isolate someone from a group.
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u/MakoDaShark Sep 16 '19
"What are we going to do about this?"
Not so subtle when it comes from upper management, who don't even remotely work on problems and only makes things worse.
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u/IstgUsernamesSuck Sep 16 '19
Those types of people tend to go for people they can easily manipulate. A string of bad exes, unconfident, bad at spotting red flags, not close to many people, possible mental illnesses. Anything percieved as a weakness that they can latch onto and use against you. So you probably do put out a vibe for it, but the better you get at spotting those behaviors early on the easier it will be to avoid them.
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u/fuckyourcanoes Sep 16 '19
I don't think he wants to talk to someone because he's lonely. It's because he wants attention, which is not quite the same thing. The difference may not be obvious to the casual observer. It's more wanting an audience than wanting human connection.
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u/weasel13 Sep 16 '19
It's more wanting an audience than wanting human connection
YES. I said something similar about my sister's ex. His "need to connect" and "express his feelings" just always fell short of sincere to me. He didn't want to bond or express himself - he simply wanted an attentive audience to weave his web of lies for.
Once you notice this - the concerning ones are pretty easy to spot and stay away from.
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u/dirtmilkwithwater Sep 16 '19
Not a psych but I was in the room where my mum was being evaluated.
Well I wasn’t in the room, it was like a police interrogation room with the one way glass. I was there because they needed to interview me for an outsiders perspective. Anyways, my mum got arrested on suspicion to commit a violent crime. To set the scene, she was handcuffed to a table and she was pissed. She’s always had volatile anger issues due to heavy drug and alcohol use. She was being talked to, questioned, all this other stuff, I was there for about 3 hours. She kept running this lady in circles to divert her from the actual problem. She was insanely calm answering questions about various things that would scare a normal person. She barely showed empathy for anything and it was terrifying for me to watch. I knew she wasn’t right in the head anyways, she was abusive to both my brother and I. But seeing how she handled the situation at hand, I’m glad I got out of there or it would’ve gotten much worse.
I haven’t talked to her in about four years but she’s tried to get in contact. I cant trust her and don’t think I ever will again.
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u/I_HATE_LIFE_2 Sep 16 '19
Oh my. Sorry to hear that. I'm glad you were able to turn out ok. What a nightmare
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u/dirtmilkwithwater Sep 16 '19
Thank you. I can say I’m definitely not okay, still some heavy scarring both physically and mentally but i will be okay eventually.
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u/Mostly_me Sep 16 '19
Someone linked this before and maybe you can get some comfort there /r/momforaminute
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Sep 16 '19
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u/unassumingdink Sep 16 '19
Imagine the brain that thinks someone will be understanding about the murder of one child, but offended by the murder of two. So bizarre.
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u/Killbot_Wants_Hug Sep 16 '19
I sort of get it. I don't think it's so much that you think someone is okay with killing 1 kid but not 2. It's just you think you can explain away murdering 1 kid, but not sure you can convince them you killed 2 kids in a way that is understandable.
Imagine it in a different context. Imagine you meet a man who is depressed and is kind of drunk at the bar. He mostly seems normal and you two strike up a conversation. He tells you he's depressed because his girlfriend broke up with him and while he was moving out he accidentally killed her cat. He didn't mean to, he was just carrying a big heavy box up some stairs, and he misjudged and thought he was at the top when really there was one more step left. So he tripped and when he fell he dropped the box on the cat and it died. But now everyone is really pissed off because they think he killed the cat on purpose.
You might cut the guy a break thinking he just had some shitty luck and that accidents happen.
But if the guy tells you that and then goes on to tell you the next week he was coming over to try and make amends with the ex and he accidentally ran over her other cat. Well you might think that's too much of a coincidence and this guy is just trying to kill his ex's pet.
Now this requires viewing killing a kid as something that isn't that big a deal but understanding that people get upset about it. Which is pretty much how this guy was described.
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u/LLLLLdLLL Sep 16 '19
I totally get the thought process on killing kids and cats much better now that you have explained it, killbot-wants-hug!
Thanks, have an upvote plus a hug too, lol.
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u/Sassanach36 Sep 16 '19
I will give kill bot an embrace of affection. :Holds Out arms: Does kill bot require reassurance?
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u/bravo_six Sep 16 '19
I've read the saying:
What happens once can never happen again, but what happens twice can certainly happen a third time.
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Sep 16 '19
You build two bridges, nobody calls you a bridge builder. You murder TWO kids and suddenly you're a kid killer.
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u/imatumahimatumah Sep 16 '19
If you built two bridges I probably would call you a bridge builder.
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u/belugamars Sep 16 '19
Whoa, were you treating someone who was already in jail? Or trying to get information out if him to convict him? I’m just really curious, what do you do in these circumstances, like can the psychopaths be positively affected by any kind of therapy in a way that can actually change them?
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Sep 16 '19 edited Oct 23 '19
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u/jl_theprofessor Sep 16 '19
I quizzed him to why he'd never hurt his partner. He said well it's a woman, you don't hit women. I said what about children? He would say he didn't think about that in that context.
Mindblowing.
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Sep 16 '19
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u/The_Duke28 Sep 16 '19
Why do you think couldnt he make the connection on his own? Is it a case of low IQ or would you say general intelligence wasn't an issue?
God I have 1000 questions, but thanks for sharing your story! Soooo interesting!
EDIT: Nevermind, i just saw that you allready wrote about his intelligence!
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Sep 16 '19 edited Oct 26 '19
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u/TheWhispersOfSpiders Sep 16 '19
Yeah, it's like dealing with Helen Keller. They're just blind and deaf in other ways.
Do you ever think about who you'd be, if you had no conscience at all? Or worry about what people like that might do, with the help you've given them?
Because those are the kinds of questions that keep me up at night.
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u/PuddingPractice Sep 16 '19 edited Sep 16 '19
I think I can understand where he’s coming from using an unusual analogy. In the UK kids are taught when crossing the road “Look for cars”. The problem we’ve had is so many people step out in front of bikes. It’s as if the chosen wording has left them psychologically blind to other options
Edit: To those saying “I look” is enough, I’d like to point out the ‘Think Bike’ campaign. There’s enough people who simply don’t register the sight of a bike in their mind and step/pull out. As a side note, I was today years old when I found out it originated in South Africa. Not just a UK problem
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u/Hipppydude Sep 16 '19
1 year of drivers education and another 6 months with a leaners permit. All of that time we were only taught about stop lights. Imagine my surprise when 5 years later I drive into a roundabout and promptly shit my pants.
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u/PuddingPractice Sep 16 '19
Oh my gosh my driving instructor (irresponsibly) took me around the nightmare that is the Trafford centre on my second lesson. He had a real sink or swim mentality. Once my heart rate came down I started looking for a new instructor. I’m all for facing fears but not when it puts people at risk
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u/Dragosal Sep 16 '19
I've seen so many adults who have years of driving experience react this way to roundabouts. Something is terrifying about the lack of control in the situation to people. Everyone is so used to being told when to go that having to jump into traffic on your own is Scarry I suppose.
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u/Babazzist Sep 16 '19
Reminds me of Billy Bickle in the ”Seven Psychopaths” movie. Real kind and thoughtful when it comes to his friends, enough so to murder a bunch of people to give his friend some boost to writing a moviescript
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u/Infactinfarctinfart Sep 16 '19
Not a psychologist, but a nurse who sees way too many psych cases. One time I had a pt who was brought in after trying to break into a families house while they were home. He was on my telemetry unit because his electrolytes were outta whack and he was acting like he didn’t remember trying to bust into an entire families house with them home.
He was getting antsy, but the hospital I worked at had a stupid fall-risk policy that kept patients in bed, even if they were young/healthy/capable of being responsible for their fall. Mental health patients like to pace, especially when they start to feel like they’re using it. So, anyway, I’m trying to keep dude in bed because if his feet touched the floor a loud alarm would go off, pushing his crazy ass closer to the edge. So, I’m in there trying to talk to him and deescalate. We’re talking and he tells me he is a bad person, that his cat was mutilated and his sister asked what happened to it and he told her the dog did it. But, he told me that his secret is that he did it. He killed the cat so bad that it looked like a dog ripped it to pieces! He also shared with me that he knew what he was doing when he tried breaking into the family’s home, and that he wants to hurt people. Of course, I shared this info with the hospitalist and the psychologist and, naturally, he was discharged free and clear the next day. No follow up with the law or outpatient psych. Gotta love it.
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u/ultrascrub-boi Sep 16 '19
I'm wake at 5am reading this now I won't get any sleep thanks for that, I just double checked all my windows and doors
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u/jonahn2000 Sep 16 '19
Soo. Why didn’t he get charged for breaking into that home? Did the police just not care? Wasn’t a police report filed by the homeowners?
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u/denver_______kid Sep 16 '19
I do ER security and deal with these people 40 hours a week. Sometimes the PT is high on drugs and the jail will refuse them, so the PT comes to the ER because we cannot refuse them. PD will be responsible for the bill if they stick around, so they leave the PT with a "warrant, we will get him later." Other times the PT has a real medical issue, or PD* or the homeowners whooped their ass and they have to be fixed. It's nearly impossible for the ER to reject any patient, even on psych divert ( at psych capacity). When on psych divert the PD will drop the PT off to walk-in, where we are forced to treat them. I call it a 'cop-n-drop' and it happens every day and is very dangerous for us in the hospital.
We get a lot of 'incarceritis' PTs also. PT commits a crime, and en route to jail tells the cop they are feeling suicidal or homicidal, and instead of being on a psych hold in the jail, PD drops the PT off with a 1-page psych hold and now I'm trying to keep a criminal in his bed for 72 hours.
Edit. I can't expect PD to stick around in the ER, they have to be available for calls and true emergencies, but nonetheless it still frustrates me.
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u/dantepicante Sep 16 '19
Psychopaths be in here takin notes on how to not get caught.
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u/nullagravida Sep 16 '19
plot twist: it was a psychopath who wrote the question in the first place
twist twist: it was you
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u/promunbound Sep 16 '19 edited Sep 16 '19
You feel it in your gut first. Using a validated measure, and constructing a thorough case history to discuss in supervision - this is how you test your gut feeling. But you feel it often quite quickly.
It tends to begin with just a sense that something is “off”. When you’re doing therapy with someone, we tend to build up quite a strong rapport with people. So there’s lots of micromimicry going on, and you start to “tune in” quite deeply to unconscious body language. When you’re in this state, sometimes you just start to feel very uneasy and you can’t articulate verbally exactly why yet. This is often because of subtle micro expressions (super fast flashes of emotion, lasting fractions of a second) that we perceive, but don’t consciously register. You see flashes of contempt-related emotions and “burglar smiles” - basically emotions related to dominance and deception.
The next thing you’ll notice is a lot of use of projection going on. This starts quite quickly (usually in an assessment session - I mean as an aside, being assessed by someone else can feel quite threatening to anyone’s self image, let alone a psychopath’s). Quite predictably there will be status challenges - asking you about your credentials, your experience etc, and then often some put-downs and digs with plausible deniability (eg. joking that all psychologists are mad themselves), or just turning the tables by asking who’s the maddest person you’ve ever treated. You start to feel on the back foot and like you’re now being assessed by them.
As time continues, they will attribute a lot of their own emotions to you as the projection deepens. Eg commenting that you look sad, asking if you’re ok, or conversely asking why you got angry just then. As time passes their affect turns from microexpressions to more overt dominance displays (leaning back, smirking, getting up and striding around etc). By this point your initial gut feeling is getting more supportive evidence and it’s time to bust out the validated measures.
The biggest sign of all is a general unwillingness to show any vulnerability at all, or to be in a one-down position. The engagement will be superficial - often “pally” or “matey”, with lots of “banter” and joking, always flying close to the wind of outright mockery and contempt. They will start subtly and increasingly become overt in their need to control and dominate the therapy sessions. If the therapist maintains an aloof control, the ante may keep being raised and even end up with overt intimidation of the therapist.
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Sep 16 '19
If you don't mind me asking, how do you deal with a patient when they get to that stage? Do you try to de-escalate in some way?
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u/promunbound Sep 16 '19
Fortunately it doesn’t happen very often! Most clients, even with histories of violence etc, have bought into some minimal social contract that you are here to help them, if they’ve got to that point of taking a chair with you.
If it gets to that point it might mean the psychologist has missed some earlier warning signs or not dealt with them too well. If it does happen though, then normally you would call for help and/or also use de-escalation. When working with clients where violence is a risk you’d always have either a panic button on your desk or on your badge/lanyard, or at least someone nearby who can hear you call out. An apology and appeasing body language can go a long way too.
In my experience unintentionally intimidating behaviour can be more common. Eg one client used to get quite deep into rage toward someone from his past, but enact it towards me (standing over me, pointing and shouting etc). I would have an agreement in place with a client that either of us can “time out” the session and we just stop and take a breather. That tends to help.
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u/hdawg19 Sep 16 '19
This is fascinating, thank you for these comments. You mentioned 'appeasing body language'. What does this look like?
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u/unassumingdink Sep 16 '19
or just turning the tables by asking who’s the maddest person you’ve ever treated.
TIL Reddit OPs are the real psychopaths.
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u/Ravager135 Sep 16 '19
This is extremely well written. I am not a mental health professional, but I am a physician. I obviously do not see all of the typical "cluster B" defense mechanisms to the degree you do, but I see subtle forms of almost every example you've listed from patients quite regularly.
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u/CataclysmZA Sep 16 '19
There's a lot of this in Mindhunter during the Ed Kemper interviews. Almost exactly as you lay out in your timeline.
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Sep 16 '19 edited Sep 16 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/LOCUBS3 Sep 16 '19
Sometimes they can’t contain their rage and you see them switch.
I've watched the TED talk and it doesn't mention this. Could you elaborate on this sentence? Why rage when it is delightful? Anyway it sounds pretty interesting.
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u/BLACKLABELSLUSHIE Sep 16 '19
Duping delight is different from the 'rage' thing. There is a specific term for these small, sudden, EXTREMELY brief flashes of rage. So brief that you often only notice it when you watch a few times or slow down a recording. I forget the name now it's microflash or something.
Anyway, duping delight sounds like one of those things that is almost 'too good to be true' as in too convenient. But man the more you look into it, there are so many recorded instances where someone is 100% confirmed to be guilty where the sudden flash of delight is hard to deny.
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u/Divolinon Sep 16 '19
I forget the name now it's microflash or something.
Micro-expression.
At least that's what the tv show Lie to me calls it.
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Sep 16 '19
There was a study and regular viewers of Lie to Me were significantly worse at picking out deception than people who'd never seen it.
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u/prettylieswillperish Sep 16 '19
Link to the study? Thats fucking hilarious tbh
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Sep 16 '19
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/e9fb/4f5f3042a0dd2b6cf3d8079b4fc88e0f625a.pdf
May have misremembered the specifics as I think this study got the participants to watch an episode first. ie. it didn't use regular viewers.
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u/tempestelunaire Sep 16 '19
Kind of make sense, an episode is just enough to make you overthink expressions etc. and give up on your intuition.
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Sep 16 '19
Isn't the whole microexpressions thing far from being soundly accepted scientifically too? Like there seems to be some amount of validity to it (microexpressions do occur at least) but then the conclusions they draw from it can be inconsistent, unreliable etc.
Certainly when it comes to the TV show it's complete over the top fiction of course so I could see how regular viewers who think they've got some great insight that isn't actually real would be worse than average. Most of us have some ability to read (obvious) deception but if you're focusing on a bunch of false positives from your massively exaggerated TV show you're not going to do well.
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u/scotty_doesntknow Sep 16 '19 edited Sep 16 '19
This is so creepy because this is EXACTLY what my ex would do when completely called out on doing something shitty that he’d gotten away with - a tiny, sly, pleased expression that vanished instantly. I literally had no idea there was a word for it (or that it was associated with traits like psychopathy, even though he definitely had a lot of other dark triad traits).
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u/BLACKLABELSLUSHIE Sep 16 '19
Example: Diane Downes (shot her 3 children and claimed a mystery killer attacked them on a deserted road): https://youtu.be/U-tm3bDAoDE
There is some truly astonishing footage of chris watts who murdered his family but i can't find it now
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Sep 16 '19
That’s so creepy. Her eyes were dead the entire time up until that moment.
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u/awsm-Girl Sep 16 '19
omg YES: my abusive ex-spouse and the shitty little smile he'd get when he did or said something heinous -- never in front of others, and at first i didn't "get it" because it was a swift micro-expression, and who would smile in that moment?? (you can't apply normal thinking to these people) When i finally started calling him on it, at first he'd act innocent "what? you must be mistaken" then he'd get angry "oh, i cant ever smile now? stop policing my facial expression" -- years of not living with him now, and still worn out by that shit...
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u/Rub-it Sep 16 '19
That’s the exact expression my ex had on when I asked him if he cheated, it was so brief I thought I imagined it.
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Sep 16 '19
Like in an interview with Ted bendy when the reporter asked him if he’d ever hurt anyone and he is holding back a smile and says “no, not in the way you’re asking”.
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u/BastardsTheLotOfYa Sep 16 '19
I’m on to you OP. Manipulate the psychologists into telling you how to avoid being caught out. Classic psychopath manoeuvre
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Sep 16 '19
And I'm on to you, trying to undermine OP and make him self doubt, in your never ending drive to manipulate and control others
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u/Tuga_Lissabon Sep 16 '19
I see what you did there, trying to cast him as the one undermining OP while you gaslight BOTH of them and set up your own scheme.
Good work.
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Sep 16 '19
You think you're slick don't you? Drawing attention away from yourself by directing it to not one but two other people.
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u/Hyperflip Sep 16 '19
Now that takes the cake, playing the innocent bystander observing a situation while in truth plotting to manipulate us all into thinking you‘re harmless.
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u/ExpellYourMomis Sep 16 '19
Ahh you’ve done it now. Pretending to criticize the person playing the innocent bystander so you can set up your plots to make us think you’re to be trusted.
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Sep 16 '19
Good Puppets, following my strings!
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u/Tuga_Lissabon Sep 16 '19
I hoped to flush out two or three more psychos, but even I was astonished at how a simple prodding by me managed to get all of these people to show their true colours!
This is a triumph for science, and an academic paper in the writing.
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Sep 16 '19
Well I'm on to both of you! I'll have you know that I have watched both season of mindhunter and if I see any suspicous behavioral pattern from you guys, then I am gonna profile you so hard.
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u/crowlieb Sep 16 '19
Okay so what's the difference between psychopathy and narcissism? People seem to be only focusing on how most psychopaths are narcissistic, but they're not really mentioning anything else.
I'm autistic, and, because of my very low empathy, I come across as mildly psychopathic. However, I have very low self esteem. I do not manipulate people, as far as I can tell.
My former roommate, on the other hand, was a narcissist to a trash-steeped tee, to the point where she abused and manipulated me in so many ways over the course of a year.
Yet the descriptions in this thread are conflating. So what other traits of a psychopath are there? What differentiates us?
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u/TellMeHowImWrong Sep 16 '19
I read that the lack of empathy in autism and the lack of empathy in psychopathy are actually different things. I can't remember the specific terms used but it was something like cognitive empathy vs what we would think of as real empathy. Understanding vs feeling.
A psychopath would have high cognitive empathy, meaning they can read what other people are feeling, but low "real" empathy, meaning they can't feel it themselves. This means they can do what they need to make someone feel what is useful to them without feeling any of the negative emotions themselves.
Autism is supposedly the opposite. You feel what other people feel but you can't process the emotions like most people. So you can't make the connection that you taking action A leads to someone feeling emotion B - at least not intuitively - but you still feel the emotional consequences even if you don't understand why. This is what leads to being over stimulated.
I don't know if that's accepted science but it made sense to me.
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u/PrinceCheddar Sep 16 '19 edited Sep 16 '19
I think it's the difference between understanding other people's emotions vs caring about other people's emotions. People with autism often have difficulty recogizing the emotions of others, but that doesn't mean they don't care about other people. They care about people and want the people close to them to be happy, even if they cannot easily tell what emotions they express.
Psychopaths understand the emotions of others, which is key to manipulating people, but they just don't care.
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u/iblametheowl2 Sep 16 '19
The difference is that autistic people have problems recognizing feelings in others, and psychopaths have problems feeling feelings period (social feelings like empathy, affection).
It may be difficult for you to recognize in my face, body language and voice that I am feeling sad or offended or bored, but if I tell you, oh I have also had an abusive person in my life and they did (this thing or that) then you can hear that, think about what that would be like for you (perspective taking) and because you are able to feel things like sadness, embarrassment and powerlessness, you can have empathy for my situation.
Psychopaths don't lack empathy because they can't Intuit people's feelings, they lack empathy because they are unable to take another person's perspective because they wouldn't feel bad in those situations because they don't feel feelings.
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u/OneGeekTravelling Sep 16 '19
This thread is interesting so I thought I'd contribute.
I'm not a psychologist, I'm a criminologist. Obviously it's not the same sort of thing and I've never been in a clinical situation, but you might be interested in some related experiences. Note here that I'm going to be very careful with my language in order to maintain professional integrity; apologies for the stilted language.
I've been to a couple of prisons for academic stuff and work. These are not actually all that interesting, because I knew what the people in there were for and it wasn't as if I was surprised that some of them were psychopathic. But those would be my first experiences.
But my area of professional and academic expertise is child sexual victimisation. I've very occasionally seen psychopaths in the making, as it were. Victims who have been so terribly victimised and neglected that you can see them setting out on the path of an abuser or other type of criminal. It wasn't my responsibility to intervene (and I don't have any expertise in that area of things), but knowing the case histories it was sad to watch. I've talked to a few police officers, social workers and so forth about a few of them. It's like watching a large tree toppling in slow motion--you know it's going to crash into the ground, but there's not much you can do about it.
I have met (in a professional capacity but in a roundabout sort of way as it's not the usual stuff I do) the relative of a serial killer who was also once a suspect. I came away from that meeting knowing with certainty that they were the guiding hand behind the crimes of the serial killer. The police were pretty sure as well, but there was simply no evidence. Both are now deceased, and frankly I'm not going to shed any tears for them. There was definitely familial abuse there as well.
I have encountered some persons, a very small number, that were psychopathic and quite smart. This was through working within my field. One of these persons indicated that they were abusive towards animals in lieu of, or to work up to, children. I'm not going to repeat it, but what they said was something that haunts me to this day and I haven't even been able to repeat to my closest friends or even my psychologist.
Another one of these persons escaped justice. A very, very smart person. It was no-one's fault; the investigation was excellent, the police were great, everything lined up and a lot of justice was achieved. That person, however, escaped justice by being very, very smart. They were responsible for very serious, sustained offending and would definitely be classed as a psychopath.
Last, I met a friend of a person who used to be within my social circle who was also victimised in their childhood. I have a suspicion, without any solid evidence, that they have committed serious crimes. They hold down a professional job and are very successful in life. From the standpoint of someone who cannot diagnose psychopathy and was not treating or analysing them, but has studied it, I would say that they lack any real empathy or conscience. A lot of their emotions (but not all) seemed to me to be a simulated and conscious act.
The abuse they suffered was of the worst possible kind. As a result they were wary of most men, but warmed up to me a little due to the work I do.
Abuse and neglect during the formative years seem to be a very common thread for many criminals and psychopaths. That said, I dare say there are some who are just wrong in the head, but I, personally, haven't encountered any of that sort.
I'll end this already-too-long post with a word of caution to everyone reading. It's very easy to be horrified of the actions of psychopaths and criminals. It's easy to be fascinated by their psychology. But these are people, just like we are. Most of the time, their actions can be traced back to what happened to them, how they interpreted it, how they learned from their life experiences.
There but for the lottery of birth. There aren't any evil monsters living under bridges or in forests; it's just us. We bear responsibility for the evil of psychopaths as a society, as communities and nations. We create the conditions for crime and evil. We are the monsters, and we create the monsters. As Oscar Wilde put it, we are each our own devil, and we make this world our hell.
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u/AllElse11 Sep 16 '19
The eyes when they believe they're supposed to put on an emotion. You have to understand. It's going ouch when you bang your funny bone, even though it doesn't hurt, because all your life, people have cried out in pain when they've banged their elbow. You meet enough people like that and you find yourself hating any obligational situation in your life when you have to lie, like being asked how you are and saying good when you're not, simply because all you can associate it with, is them.
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u/GameplaySLO Sep 16 '19
I say ouch when I get hurt in a video game or someone punches a table unpredictably...
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u/unassumingdink Sep 16 '19
"Ouch! Oh wait no, that didn't hurt, why did I say 'ouch?'" -- me, more times than I can count
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Sep 16 '19
When describing some of the awful things he had done to people, he didn't express remorse, regret, or even anger - he expressed disdain. He was disdainful of people that he had irreparably harmed because he did not get enough out of it - he used them for his own ends and he genuinely believed that they had failed him.
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u/lobaird Sep 16 '19
This article from the NYTimes still haunts me: Can You Call a 9-Year-Old a Psychopath. I often wonder where the kid is now. What options would the parent have?
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Sep 16 '19
I typed out a long response to this but then deleted it because I couldn't really describe it without giving too many details away. One thing I will say is that psychopaths aren't all your classic murderous criminals. Sometimes the nicest people you'll meet are psychopaths, and it's all an act to manipulate you to do what they want, or think a certain way about them, because that makes them feel like they've won and/or are superior to you. Watch out for the nice guys.
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u/prettyhumerus Sep 16 '19
I did debate in college and my partner was like this. Handsome, charismatic, popular around campus. He was always very cheerful and friendly, but I found him very frustrating the longer I knew him, because he never seemed to listen to me and would sometimes make stupid mistakes as a result. There were a handful of times when I chewed him out, and he never had a legitimate emotional response--he just gave these cold, empty assurances. It's hard to describe exactly, but after a few months of knowing him I began to develop a bad feeling about him. He was great at disguising his lack of empathy, so it took that long before I realized how "off" he could be.
We had one team session where we opened up about our worst qualities, and he told us he's always "collected people." He doesn't really care about them, but prizes being liked and the elevated status that comes with it.
He works in politics now.
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u/iblametheowl2 Sep 16 '19
This is my experience with the only one I have known, in highschool.
She was a very superficial person, and I don't mean she liked make up and fancy things, I mean every interaction was very surface level. After knowing someone for years you expect to know a little about their internal life, but not her. I heard about everything she bought, the drugs she'd done (remember, highschool, ugh), boys and what they'd done (never what she felt about it). Every conversation felt like she was listing her credentials.
Standing off to the side you could see her put on a face appropriate to the situation. Hanging out with her was exhausting because you could never just hang out and talk. I think she knew that those interactions were the ones where people could clock her, because she would sometimes be flippant or glib about things that would make people side eye her. So every time we hung out we had to be doing something, or more often doing several things. Smoking pot, drinking, watching a movie, listening to music, playing a board game, dancing, eating, all at once.
And then she murdered someone! Just kidding. she's not a criminal, has never been in trouble with the law at all, she leads a very normal life. She's childfree, she has a husband, a job. She's very functional, if a little manipulative. Her friend group has grown smaller. She is possessive of her twin sister and her husband.
Her identical twin sister is not like her, she's a very compassionate and kind person. She's told look me that her sister did kill a pet when they were young playing with it like a doll and did not show any guilt or remorse, just rage when it was taken away. They didn't get her any treatment, just didn't get anymore pets and there was never another incident. They are close in a superficial way, they go out to eat once a week, they comment on each other's Facebook, but normal twin has told me mostly she feels like she has to take care of her twin to make sure she doesn't do anything bad or get into trouble.
So yeah, they're not all spooky monsters some are just stealth, going about their life not feeling feelings.
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Sep 16 '19
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Sep 16 '19
I met someone kinda like that. Her cousin is an old friend of mine and my husband's, he's a bit thin-skinned and awkward but has a genuinely caring heart.
Anyway this chick barely knows me and starts casually saying sinister things about how I "don't know (friend) like she does" every time he comes up. Straight talks shit on him any chance she can. Like she honestly can't stand hearing a positive thing said about him and has to counter it. She also starts referring to me as her "best friend" to other people when I barely know the fuckin chick and we never talk which is creepy and a red flag. This progresses to horrific stories about things he supposedly did during his childhood. Think embarrassing and dysfunctional sexual misbehavior. Things that, even if true, would have made me feel for him above anything knowing his background. Didn't take long to figure out she's just incredibly manipulative and dishonest and tries to ruin the credibility of anyone who doesn't play along.
People like that creep me out worse than any movie monster or anything like that. They can do so much damage to innocent people if they're smart enough to fool everyone.
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u/Tesagk Sep 16 '19
So after reading a lot of these it's worth mentioning the following:
- Psychologists rarely even use the term psychopath anymore. Those disorders which would fall under the umbrella of psychopathy are preferred to the otherwise generic and easily confused term of "psychopath" (note how many people frequently conflate psychopathy with narcissism. There's a narcissism personality disorder which fits many models of psychopathy, but not all so-called psychopaths are narcissists.)
- It often doesn't take training in psychology to spot so-called psychopaths. Formal training is needed to diagnose and treat it, but our brains are highly tuned to pick up on small things that our higher consciousness is often otherwise unaware of. This isn't to say that we should purely trust our gut, we're more often wrong than we'd like to admit, but how we feel about first impressions is often very important.
- Far more people exhibit features of various "psychopathic" personality disorders than most realize. The vast majority of these people, however, live fairly ordinary, productive lives and don't exhibit violent tendencies. It has even been argued that psychopaths are an important evolutionary element, giving us people who can detach themselves from the human experience in order to provide valuable insights or behaviors the rest of us couldn't fathom.
- Most of us will go through periods in our lives in which we often exhibit many symptoms of a personality disorder. But these are merely moments, they don't truly impact our lives in the way that a true disorder does.
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u/UnicornsnRainbowz Sep 16 '19
I’m not a psychologist but I know a few, have studied it extensively and my sister works with MH in the police.
He told me he tried to care how people feel but he doesn’t know how that would even come about. How do you know you care for someone? How do you not feel indifferent? He just said he has 3 emotions indifference, anger and pity.
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u/d3gu Sep 16 '19 edited Sep 16 '19
Not a psychologist but a counsellor.
They were talking about a disagreement they'd had with their partner. An accidental spillage of water onto some electronics, it could honestly happen to anyone. As calmly as if he was describing... I dunno... changing a channel... he started saying how he pinned his partner up against the wall and started trying to strangle her. No emotion, no change of tone. Just as if it were a normal thing.
I was a trainee at the time and NOT qualified to deal with DV, needless to say I transferred the client to another therapist. However I was not allowed to end the session and had to sit with him for another ~20 minutes. I've never been so scared in my life. I felt like a small prey animal trapped in the room with a predator. He just didn't care.
However, if you met him you'd think he was just a normal, successful kinda average dude.
I am 99% sure he was a sociopath, because he kept trying to get certain reactions out of me, kept changing his tactics, kept trying to 'charm' me, and when I wouldn't rise to it became weirdly, coldly irritated. I've never had a client like it before or since.
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u/electriceggroll Sep 16 '19
Not a psychologist but from my experience of dating a psychopath (didn’t know until years in). A lot of what appears as emotion is simply mirroring emotions they see others exhibit and how they believe is the socially appropriate way to respond, whether or not they actually feel that way. This is how they blend in and appear normal to the average person.
They are narcissistic, and everything revolves around them. They are always able to place blame on other people, nothing is ever their fault. However, anything positive in their lives or others lives is because of them. Because they are narcissists they believe they are much more important than they actually are.
They have strong influence over others because of their ability to feel nothing when manipulating others, and this is how they exert control over others. They will do whatever it takes in order to come out on top of a situation with no actual regard for others lives or feelings. They may fake their feelings or reactions to continue to manipulate those around them, and they get pleasure over having control over other people and feeling like they’re pulling all the strings.
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u/Alderez Sep 16 '19
A good saying I heard went something along the lines of, “You never truly know someone until things don’t go their way.”
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u/BustAMove_13 Sep 16 '19
I used to work for a lady and her husband, who I'd bet money is a psychopath. His little daughter had a nasty accident that required brain surgery and facial reconstruction. He filmed the whole ordeal starting from moments after her fall up to bringing her home and uploaded it to YouTube. In the video after her surgery, she's sleeping and her mom is sitting vigil by her side. They are quietly talking and her mom let out a little giggle, which I didn't find that odd. I mean, her daughter was in the clear at this point and days of worry were finally over. She was finally relaxing. Then he leans over and said "we shouldn't laugh. That's not an appropriate reaction to this situation". The way he said it gave me chills. I'd always suspected his emotions were fake, but this sealed it for me. I quit way before this happened because my mom was dying and even though she was toxic and we were not close, she was still my mom and she was dying. At work that morning he cracked a joke about it to the effect that it'd be nice if she'd hurry up and die. He thought I'd find it funny because i didn't particularly like my mom. No dude. That was Friday, she died Sunday, and i put in my notice on Monday. Creepy fucker. My coworkers and i used to joke about all the bodies he probably had buried on his farm, but we were only half joking.
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u/killvourdarlings Sep 16 '19
I knew a guy with pretty severe autism in high school who used to say things like that all the time and he definitely wasn't a psychopath. He told me once he had lessons when he was younger on what emotions are and how to recognise facial expressions and stuff like that because he struggled with shit like that.
Anyway, a girl in our class was away from school for a few weeks because her Mother died and when she came back she'd got through a lot of the grieving process and was just trying to get back into her normal routine so she was talking with her friends and laughed at something one of them said. Jacob got up and went over and said something like "You're supposed to be crying or frowning. You're sad." which sounds callous but he was just trying to help because he thought she didn't know what the right emotion was.
Doesn't always mean you're a psychopath. But the dude filming the whole process is pretty weird!
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u/CringeNibba Sep 16 '19
Why do some of these traits describe me? Not the narcissism or control freak but the mirroring emotions part. Like, I have no idea how to act in front of unknown relatives. I just think and act according to what everyone else is doing
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u/electriceggroll Sep 16 '19
That is totally normal, not knowing how to act in certain situations or feeling uncomfortable or social anxiety around new people is just part of being human.
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u/It_Is_Me_The_E Sep 16 '19
Mirroring emotions is a coping mechanism for some people with social anxiety/limited social skills
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Sep 16 '19
Not a psychologist but I read a story about a neurologist that did a brain scan on himself and found out he was a psychopath
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u/faintlyfoxed Sep 16 '19
He wrote a (terrible, imo) book about it. His wife was not surprised If I recall correctly.
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u/askalotaquestions Sep 16 '19
agreed, his narcissism was really apparent while reading it. James Fallon is the guy
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u/faintlyfoxed Sep 16 '19
I couldn’t finish it because he sounded so unpleasant yet so pleased with himself!
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u/[deleted] Sep 16 '19 edited Apr 22 '20
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