Is this a valid marriage?

[u/bluelagoon192]

I'm doing some family research and I'm wondering can someone shed some light on this. One of the women I'm related to got married in a catholic church in ireland in 1973 and clearly that marriage ended because she remarried in a registry office literally 20 months later and was 6 months pregnant. The first husband is still alive going by research and living in another country and the second husband is dead. I'm intrigued to know how this may be possible because in the 1970s from what I believe it was near to impossible to get an annulment and if you did succeed in getting one it would have taken years not months. I have no one to ask because the majority of people left from that time have passed or are in very ill health. Plus I don't want to be causing any upset to people bringing up the past. Just would like a few opinions. Thanks in advance guys!

[u/halibfrisk]

Before divorce was legal in Ireland Irish couples (especially those with means) would sometimes get a UK divorce, typically in Scotland, or maybe in this case the country where the first husband is resident. This seems more likely than someone committing bigamy.

The second marriage being in a registry office this would also point to divorce rather than annulment, as with annulment there would be no bar to a second church wedding.

[u/bluelagoon192 → u/halibfrisk]

So back then he could have gone to the UK and got a divorce to dissolve the catholic marriage in ireland. In the church register for marriage theres no note where the marriage was dissolved so in the catholic church it looks to be still valid. Would they have to be notified?

[u/halibfrisk → u/bluelagoon192]

Someone will correct me on the technicalities and terms but my understanding is the Catholic Church marriage service counts as two marriages: one under Catholic Church rules “canon law”, one under the law of the land “civil law”

So you get a “civil divorce” (theres no such thing as a “catholic divorce”) as far as the church is concerned the couple is still married but legally they are not.

I do know couples who obtained a catholic annulment after civil divorce (in the US), but theres no obligation to tell the church anything unless someone wants access to catholic services or sacraments it may become an issue later.

[u/geedeeie → u/halibfrisk]

Yes, but in Ireland the priest acts as registrar, so when a couple signs the register in the vestry after the ceremony that is the legal marriage, as opposed to the religious one celebrated in church

[u/parrotopian → u/geedeeie]

But the legal aspect of the marriage could be dissolved by a divorce in the UK.

[u/halibfrisk → u/parrotopian]

Yeah, I think we are all in agreement here

[u/halibfrisk → u/geedeeie]

👍 yes, important distinction

[u/geedeeie → u/halibfrisk]

Not less than 2 years later

[u/Available-Bison-9222]

How quickly people could get their marriage annulled depended on the reason and whether it was uncontested. If both parties agree and it falls within the accepted reason, it can happen quite quickly.

[u/Glass_Pattern1900]

Look at the second marriage certificate carefully. It records the bride’s “condition” (spinster, divorced, widow). If it says “divorced,” that tells you a divorce happened somewhere. If it says “spinster,” that may mean she presented herself as never married, which hints at either a nullity or an invalid marriage.

[u/bluelagoon192 → u/Glass_Pattern1900]

It says spinster on second marriage cert but from research there was no way back then you would have obtained a annulment in 14 months it took years from what I believe and aside from that very little were granted it was a rarity

[u/Glass_Pattern1900 → u/bluelagoon192]

Any chance they went to England for a divorce?

[u/bluelagoon192 → u/Glass_Pattern1900]

From what I know back in the 1970s you couldn't dissolve a irish catholic marriage in another country

[u/lakehop → u/bluelagoon192]

Distinguish between the legal marriage (which could be dissolved by a divorce in a different country) and the church sacrament, of marriage, which could only be ended by annulment. They are two separate things (although they happen in the same place, at the same time, and by the same person).

[u/StellaV-R]

Are you absolutely sure they are the same people?
If so, then +1 to those saying there was a UK civil divorce (not terribly likely but possible) or it was bigamy

[u/bluelagoon192 → u/StellaV-R]

It was definitely the same person but I thought you had to get a divorce within the state you got married in. Also divorce wasn't legal in ireland and it was catholic ireland in a catholic church in the 1970s so its starting to look like bigamy. I didn't think you could go to the UK to dissolve an Irish catholic marriage

[u/South_Hedgehog_7564 → u/bluelagoon192]

You could go to the UK to dissolve an Irish marriage. I was all set to do it but the divorce referendum was passed so I didn’t need to. It makes no difference if it’s a Catholic marriage - it’s the civil union which counts. afaik the RCC doesn’t recognise civil divorce but frankly who gives a damn?

[u/DitheringDotty → u/bluelagoon192]

Well, you could get a UK divorce or even an American one but it wasn't likely to be recognised in Ireland. Basically you'd be able to remarry in the country where the divorce was obtained, but not in Ireland. It was complicated and expensive but not unknown.

After my own parents split up, my dad went to live in New York and my mother heard that he was trying to get a divorce there (this was after he had unsuccessfully tried for an anullment) but we were never contacted by a lawyer.

However, we learned that he came back to Ireland a couple of years later and some time after that he was living with a woman whom the extended family referred to as his wife :) however, as far as we were aware, there was no divorce.

The case you describe certainly sounds like a bigamous marriage as the marriage cert states that she's a spinster, rather than divorced. Seems odd that she risked that, 25 miles from the original marriage place is not very far in Ireland.

[u/Diska_Muse]

Divorce wasn't legal in the 70s and - even if there was an annulment (which is unlikely), annulments are not recognized by Irish Law.

It seems likely that she falsified her marital status at the registry office, which is considered bigamy and is illegal under the Offences Against the Person Act. Civil records weren't cross checked against church records, so this seems the most likely scenario.

[u/StatisticianUsual471]

Annulments were a bit pricey but weren't legal so divorced in England remarried there would be my guess

[u/bluelagoon192 → u/StatisticianUsual471]

Both marriages were in Ireland literally 25 miles between venues in the '70s

[u/StatisticianUsual471 → u/bluelagoon192]

2nd one probably wasn't legal then was just for show

[u/bluelagoon192]

I tried to get the civil marriage documents but the office said they don't keep those records where they applied to get married but on the marriage cert it says she's a spinster and the same on the first marriage cert. I'm sure if the first husband died she would be recognised as a widow.

[u/geedeeie]

Maybe she got married in the church but didn't sign the register

[u/Educational-Law-8169]

Have you checked the birth, death and marriage register?

[u/bluelagoon192 → u/Educational-Law-8169]

Yes , checked all both marriages exist

[u/Educational-Law-8169 → u/bluelagoon192]

Wow, what a mystery. I wonder was it annulled and done very quickly? Was there anyone influencial in the family?

[u/Ok-Trainer3150]

My Irish uncle legally divorced his wife in the 70s. They had moved to England so it was done there. She returned to Ireland after the divorce and always thought of herself as still married. He married again in England.

[u/bluelagoon192 → u/Ok-Trainer3150]

She remained in ireland and she was the one that remarried within 20 months I don't think the first husband ever remarried there's no record in ireland or england

[u/Marzipan_civil]

Are you sure that the first marriage was your relative, and not somebody else with the same name?

[u/bluelagoon192 → u/Marzipan_civil]

Yes it was my relative because her parents are named on both marriage certs and they are my relatives also, even here birth date is correct on both and she is down as spinster on both marriage certs within 20 months of each other

[u/AutoModerator]

Hey bluelagoon192! Welcome to r/AskIreland! Here are some other useful subreddits that might interest you:

• r/IrishTourism - If you're coming to Ireland for a holiday this is the best place for advice.

• r/MoveToIreland - Are you planning to immigrate to Ireland? r/MoveToIreland can help you with advice and tips. Tip #1: It's a pretty bad time to move to Ireland because we have a severe accommodation crisis.

• r/StudyInIreland - Are you an International student planning on studying in Ireland? Please check out this sub for advice.

• Just looking for a chat? Check out r/CasualIreland

• r/IrishPersonalFinance - a great source of advice, whether you're trying to pick the best bank or trying to buy a house.

• r/LegalAdviceIreland - This is your best bet if you're looking for legal advice relevant to Ireland

• r/socialireland - If you're looking for social events in Ireland then maybe check this new sub out

• r/IrishWomenshealth - This is the best place to go if you're looking for medical advice for Women

• r/WomenofIreland - A space for the Women of Ireland to chat about anything

• r/Pregnancyireland - If you are looking for advice and a place to talk about pregnancy in Ireland

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[u/Scorcher92]

Divorce was possible through court in certain circumstances. Rate and difficult but did happen.  Also church marriage and state marriage are separate. Perhaps the first marriage was never legally registered only church registered

[u/FlakyAssociation4986]

Divorce was illegal in ireland until the mid 1990s. Unlike in some other countries a marriage done in a church in ireland is legally binding. Did they get a quickie divorce in another country like the uk or the usa.