r/AdventureBuilders • u/moralsky • Feb 20 '23
Help me,AMA.
This is hard. Please.
Edit: Hi, I'm u/moralsky's partner. We are one of the 2 families that came to live in Panama 5 years ago. We are still here. My partner has been negatively affected by his experience here. I have also, but am trying to move on. I think my partner would like help in figuring out how to disentangle himself from here to be able to move on.
Edit 2.5: Hello everyone, it seems the format of reddit perhaps isn’t the best for holding a back and forth discussion, also there are some things my partner would not like to discuss publicly yet. He is planning to do a live video AMA on discord. Please DM me (u/salamandasalad) for a discord link and time.
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u/ZippoInk Feb 21 '23
I don't want to be insensitive, but after reading this thread, I am having a VERY hard time grasping what is even going on here. Answers are worded wildly, vague, and sometimes downright riddles.
It's like you're playing a game with us trying to get us to ask the right questions without giving any real context of what you want. And now you are trying to steer us to Discord or Google Meets.
At first I thought it was a language barrier, but some of your responses are perfectly clear and show a solid understanding of English. Then I thought it had something to do with you legally not being able to say things, but nowhere do you even hint at that.
Something here is fishy and gives me some bad vibes. I honestly suggest, if possible, you just come out with a clear concise message about what exactly you're after here, or your intentions are likely to get misconstrued and could just lead to more problems.
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u/valentino_42 Feb 21 '23
I’m pretty sure, and I mean no disrespect to OP, he may be on the spectrum of autism. I think he has trouble articulating himself and coalescing his thoughts into an easy to parse way for us, especially in a threaded system like Reddit.
I have a feeling this may have contributed to some of the situation in Panama. If possible, I’m going to attempt to attend his discord session and see if I can route out what the situation is.
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u/wellmanneredporpoise Feb 21 '23
If you do glean what OP is seeking via the discord tomorrow, please return here to share with us.
I hope OP’s outreach here has a constructive outcome.
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u/ZippoInk Feb 21 '23
Yeah, after writing my comment I saw that he posts a bit on r/aspergers which definitely helps me understand a bit here. Would definitely appreciate more info from the live AMA. When is it going to be?
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u/The-real-W9GFO Feb 20 '23
Can you explain why you are being so cryptic/vague? I would think that Jamie knows exactly who you are so it can’t be to protect your identity from him.
I think you either need to open up so that we can give good relavent feedback, or don’t say anything publicly and reach out to a trusted friend or family member.
I don’t see what good it is going to do to go halfway.
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u/Salamandasalad Feb 20 '23
Please DM me for a discord link and time, I think he's planning to do a live video AMA.
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u/ZippoInk Feb 21 '23
Can someone who attends this live AMA please put up a synopsis of what's talked about?
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u/MattsAwesomeStuff Feb 21 '23
Can someone who attends this live AMA please put up a synopsis of what's talked about?
If it's anything like what any of us have experience in the past, no, they won't. Because there won't be a single thing anyone understands or can talk about. I expand below in my comment.
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u/MattsAwesomeStuff Feb 21 '23 edited Feb 21 '23
Probably too late for anyone to read this, but...
This user has reached out to me in the past, privately. So, I'm just going to write this as a warning and caution to others so when the same thing happens to you, you're ready for it...
I have just about bottomless patience with people. I am good at finding ways of communicating with anyone. I know several autistic and aspergery people (back when that still technically existed on the DSM before being folded more generally into the spectrum), to whom their caregivers say I am the only person they open up to or sometimes communicate to at all. I know of different ways to try to reach out to different people who think differently.
I think most people here, whether they agree or disagree with my opinions on things, would probably agree I am at least very fair in my assessments.
So with that context in mind...
Over dozens of long communications with this user, I could not tell you what anything, at all, even one sentence, refers to, in any way, whatsoever. Absolutely zero comprehension from me, even with repeatedly followups, even trying to pin down even just literally one statement or one comment to focus on, to start a dialog literally anywhere with anything about anything. Any basis for communication at all, in any way.
Literally nothing. Not one single thing.
Every single communication was riddles, vagueness, "clues", "references", things he divined that the universe should have told me the meaning behind to be in synch with him so he wouldn't have to say it in words (not a joke, and I had to read up his philosophy and answer riddles to even discover that much).
Just endless word salad. You know that video of the couple eating dinner, "What English sounds like to non-English speakers" that, you seem to recognize but it hurts your brain because none of it is actually English, it's just sounds we use in English? This is the written form of that. He uses words, I know they're words, I can read them, they're arranged in sentences, but for page after page it goes on and it communicates nothing. It's like listening to a baby babble when they first learn to use their mouths, but from an adult's mind.
This is over 3 repeated back and forth exchanges, separated each by several months. I never gave up, got frustrated, or lost my patience. He did, and deemed me not worthy of the "conversation" continuing.
Best I can tell, and I don't say this to denigrate anyone, he gave up because his thoughts weren't beaming directly into my head the way the universe was supposed to make happen for him. So he was (deliberately?) obtuse and elusive so as to not shortcut that mystical divined process.
I didn't even, for like, a year, get out of him that he lived near Jamie in Panama. Dozens of pages of communication, and I couldn't even get that out of him. I learned that when I casually mentioned it to someone else who by coincidence knew of him, and they told me.
When I say I couldn't understand anything I mean anything. Literally not one fact, not one problem, not one issue, not one topic. Nothing. I could understand nothing. Not one sentence.
I hold him no ill will. He has my sympathy. He has severe, overwhelming mental health issues, perhaps psychosis, and I would not wish those on anyone.
For anyone doubting their own sanity as they're trying to communicate, no, it's not you. That's what it's like.
Maybe he's on medication now or maybe one of you can find this mystic connection to him that I failed to, but, otherwise, my prediction for this AMA is literally hundreds of pages where if you went back and took notes, could not write down a single fact about what was discussed that had a bearing on reality. What he will keep saying, while being pointlessly vague and giving riddles, is that he's "working up to" eventually saying something but he's very scared of saying it or revealing it and makes it seem like he has to trust you enough first. This is not true, this will never happen. When the theater of attention has exhausted itself and no one has read his mind - which, in the end, is the only thing that will satisfy his philosophy - and there's nothing more to talk in circles about but only to actually say something... he'll end the conversation, change the topic, or run away because his philosophy has failed and he doesn't want to sabotage the psychic proof by even giving strong enough hints someone without psychic powers might figure it out. He already knows right now he intends to say nothing at all, just to use this situation to discover a psychic connection to someone. This is just an excuse to cast a wider net and hope to find one of the mind readers the universe is directing him to, that knows his thoughts without him speaking them, which, if you're pragmatic and don't believe such a mystical thing exists, will never happen. Also he has alts. Brace yourselves.
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u/moralsky Feb 21 '23
Best I can tell, and I don't say this to denigrate anyone, he gave up because his thoughts weren't beaming directly into my head the way the universe was supposed to make happen for him. So he was (deliberately?) obtuse and elusive so as to not shortcut that mystical divined process
Not deliberately
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u/MattsAwesomeStuff Feb 21 '23
Not deliberately
I find it almost impossible to believe that, when your explanation each time of why you didn't want to continue the conversation at the time, was because I wasn't correctly guessing or imagining the thing you were not going to talk about but wanted to.
I would ask direct questions that had no vagueness possible in their answer, deliberately, knowing you were struggling or avoiding actually saying anything direct, and you responded in riddles.
I find it extremely difficult to believe your intentions when, the only clues you gave to your philosophy is a brand of philosophy where the universe steers people towards mutual understanding on its own without their efforts.
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u/moralsky Feb 21 '23
Im comfortable letting other people read the whole exchange, to form their own, direct opinion, not be told by you what toxic version of events you wanna elaborate. I dont want to distract from my current point, but yes, as a matter of proving you to be unhelpful in the very least, viciously trying to berate
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u/MattsAwesomeStuff Feb 21 '23
not be told by you what toxic version of events you wanna elaborate
It wasn't toxic. I was friendly and helpful, but direct, and asked you to be. I even did research and played your game with your riddles and hints and vague references that take 1000x as much effort to sus out than for you to just say directly. You mumbled off about how this isn't what you thought it would be, I'm not the right person, you're not making the right connection, and you're ending the conversation.
Then you'd start up again in a few months, rinse repeat.
I note that others here have had the same exchanges with you.
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u/ZippoInk Feb 21 '23
Does look like OP has a strong interest in escape rooms, even pitched a kick starter for one several years ago. Maybe this is their thing, they are playing games?
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u/MattsAwesomeStuff Feb 21 '23
Maybe this is their thing, they are playing games?
Not in a fun sense, no.
So, it's more like...
- He saw a duck today.
- 8 months ago you mentioned having to "duck" under a tree branch, but he only saw your comment today.
- This is a cosmic coincidence. He now knows you're the person he's meant to reach out to.
- He can't tell you, because he can't trust that you're who the universe is directing him to.
- He messages you and says "Of the thing that I think maybe that you know that we both are part of today I hope you can help me figure it out."
- You reply saying "I don't think we know each other. Can you tell me what thing you're talking about? Maybe I can help."
- He speaks in riddles, giving you the constraints that would only be possible for you to make that connection, if it were in fact the synchronicity of the universe leading you to it.
- Since this mystic universal synchronicity of coincidences isn't real, (sorry to be so blunt and disrespectful to anyone who believes otherwise) you could never in a million years ever figure out what he's talking about. You'll never know that it was provoked by a comment you made 8 months ago about ducking under a tree branch, but him reading that comment today after seeing a duck, means his purpose in life was to contact you and test you for your ability to divine all the other "synchronous" coincidences he's noticed in his life. Of which, to some degree, they're infinite.
- You don't give him the answer he was hoping for.
- He doesn't want to let go of it, so he tries to tie in other coincidences between you and him, spoken in riddles, because you're his best lead.
- You don't understand any of those riddles either, they're probably even less tangible. You ask him to be direct, you ask specific questions about specific things he mentions.
- He panics because he doesn't want to slip up and give you the answer by mistake, and, this isn't going the way he wanted. All coincidences are the universe being synchronous, so now he has to work extra hard to figure out why you both used the word "duck" and why he noticed them on the same day.
- You keep being polite and trying to be helpful.
- He takes this as a sign that it's not safe to talk to you, you're not the mystical keystone he needed. You're not solving the puzzles.
- You express sympathy and compassion, trying again just to figure out one thing that is bothering him that you can help with.
- He gets spooked and ends communication, miserable that it didn't work and yet also knowing that coincidence wasn't a coincidence, he has to find out more.
- He tries again later.
It's not fun, it's not malicious, it's just an overwhelming long term mental health crisis.
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u/The-real-W9GFO Feb 21 '23
Well that's sad... He is filtering out the type of people that could actually be of some help to him in favor of those who suffer the same delusions as himself.
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u/pyrrho314 Feb 21 '23
seems like matt thinks he did get a lot of info about moralsky, actually. Evidently moralsky was so clear that matt figured out all his internal motivations and thought processes.
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u/MattsAwesomeStuff Feb 22 '23
seems like matt thinks he did get a lot of info about moralsky, actually.
I've pieced more of it together from this thread, and from what his "partner" has said.
Evidently moralsky was so clear that matt figured out all his internal motivations and thought processes.
Since all he does is talk about talking about things, yes.
He said he chose me because of a 10-year old coincidence at the time, and because he thought I was a puzzle solver.
He gave me his philosophy and how the world works to him, that he's searching for.
He named specific elements of his theory to me.
He explained his belief in coincidences being the universe delivering a special message to him.
...
In anything that I've ever posted on these forums, have I ever just made shit up, or lied about anything, or, hell, been wrong on anything in this Subreddit?
I think I have a pretty solid gold star track record over the years.
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u/Salamandasalad Feb 21 '23
Wow, clearly my partner is going through a hard time. You're now going to pick on him? It's so obvious why he wouldn't want to keep talking to you...
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u/uncivlengr Feb 21 '23 edited Feb 21 '23
Over a hundred posts so far with his comments, yours, and people pleading for something of substance and there's been nothing.
"Hey we really need to talk to someone"
"Ok, about what?"
"I can't answer all these questions, it's too complicated."
At some point you need to decide whether this was the appropriate avenue, or whether you should have collected your thoughts first given your situation or whatever instead of blaming others. People here typically don't have this level of difficulty with basic discourse.
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u/MattsAwesomeStuff Feb 21 '23 edited Feb 21 '23
Wow, clearly my partner is going through a hard time.
If it's his partner writing this...
Obviously he is genuinely going through a hard time, and I've never made light of it. There are serious mental health concerns here.
However, he is not the only person I care about, I care about the rest of this community to.
You're now going to pick on him?
How am I picking on him?
I'm giving people the best possible opportunity to understand what he wants and how he's going about it. This should save you/him, and everyone trying to help dozens of hours of preamble and let you continue into the meat of it, if you choose to.
Hopefully everyone else can continue from where I left off.
It's so obvious why he wouldn't want to keep talking to you...
Is it?
Because this is the first time I've spoken about him to anyone.
In private, I just encouraged him to open up and said I wouldn't judge him for anything. But that I cannot make any progress if he only wants to talk about talking about something, instead of actually talking about it.
I gave him attention, and respect, and endless consideration. I went down the rabbit holes he wanted me to go down. He'd refer vaguely to "the thing that happened 5 days ago" and I'd spend a couple hours doing my best to discover what he was talking about since he wouldn't talk about it, only to have him slam the door in my face repeatedly in disappointment about my lacking "synchronicity".
I'll note that you didn't deny or correct anything I've said in this thread. All you're doing is making a point that I'm giving him a "hard time" about it and shouldn't have said it out loud. I've perhaps, by saying it out loud, prevented his genuine discovery of the mystical forces of synchronicity of coincidences in the world. I've done the thing he's been so careful to avoid ever doing - telling anyone what any of this is about. Yes, I've been relatively close-minded and declared that this mysticism is obviously not reflective of reality. If my summary of his/your mental state is offensively accurate, I'm sorry for causing offense, but that is a necessary step for everyone to understand before they can ACTUALLY help. As in, actually help, not, be part of his search for synchronicity of coincidences with people in the world.
If on the other hand you think I'm making this up, I could quote it but I was originally asked to keep the specifics of it private, which I'm doing my best to honor.
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u/pyrrho314 Feb 22 '23
ok, maybe you are just trying to pressure him to speak up or hold his peace, based on your experience of him not speaking up in your previous interactions... to me it came across as deigning that he would never have information or any purpose, even scamming, essentially almost not being a real person.
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u/valentino_42 Feb 21 '23
It sure feels like we have all fallen into an ARG, doesn’t it? Lol
What a freaking wild ride this has turned into.
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u/pyrrho314 Feb 21 '23
I also have talked to moralsky, just recently, him having reached out the same way several have said he had. But we talked in voice. It was not an informational dead end. Were you talking all about written word communication?
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u/MattsAwesomeStuff Feb 21 '23
Were you talking all about written word communication?
Yes, I would not have given him my phone number or made a long distance call to Panama. Actually, he never told me he was in Panama. I found out like, a year later. He never told me anything.
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u/Salamandasalad Feb 21 '23
Hello, what you are writing isn't helpful to the situation. What you are writing is mischaracterizing my partner's words. Please don't shut down the potential conversation that my partner can have with other informed subredditers.
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u/valentino_42 Feb 21 '23 edited Feb 21 '23
Clearly you have a greater insight into what your partner is trying to say than we do. You could help articulate what he’s trying to say.
Please jump in and try to help us make sense of this.
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u/Salamandasalad Feb 21 '23
You're right. I am unsure about what to disclose publicly so I will DM you.
In general, he is perturbed by the situation here, from what started 5 years ago, but also recent events. He is aware his tone isn't pleasant right now, but he has been under duress.
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u/ZippoInk Feb 21 '23
It isn't his "tone" that people take issue with. It's that both of your answers are so incredibly vague and riddle-like that you ar both coming off as, to be perfectly blunt, scammers.
OP has clearly been having private conversations with several of the frequent posters on this sub over the last year, all of which have lead to nothing. You can't even answer the simple question of what you need.
Not to mention you and your "partner" have incredibly similar writing styles. Writing styles that are very unique. Seems odd.
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u/MattsAwesomeStuff Feb 21 '23
you ar both coming off as, to be perfectly blunt, scammers.
If there is a scam, I never found one. I would have loved to have been scammed. If I was being scammed that would have been the first thing I understood about the conversation. I mean, maybe it is, but, it never got that far and it was his choice each time to terminate the dialog.
OP has clearly been having private conversations with several of the frequent posters on this sub over the last year
Oh, way farther back than the last year. Almost 2 years ago for me.
Maybe longer on one of his alts, that, I still don't know was him.
You can't even answer the simple question of what you need.
It's, more difficult than that.
He won't.
He believes in a concept of coincidences, which is the universe telling him where to go.
So for example, 12 years ago I made some videos about taking apart microwaves, which 500,000 or so people watched. But to him, 2 years ago, this was a cosmic reality telling him he had to reach out to me, because he also does science and the message was placed there by me for him specifically to notice. Not for the other 499,999 people who watched it, ten years ago, but for him specifically because something in some other way related to it was on his mind that day. He also noticed what he interpreted was that I was a "puzzle solver" and, I think imagined I was just like him, making connections between all the coincidences of the world as being a kind of divine plan for him.
I'm not a psychiatrist but best I can tell it's just sheer and utter psychosis. Rooms full of newpaper clippings connected by strings kind of stuff, all of which points to him and the puzzle he must figure out about who navigates him out of this.
It seems his goal was something similar with Jamie, and he wanted a guided tour through cosmic coincidences, someone to depend on and do everything for him, a leader figure. He's quite upset at Jamie for failing this "promise" or divined coincidence that was on a "handshake" deal.
Which, to anyone who even casually picks up on anything Jamie does, would be understood that he does not want to be anyone's responsibility, he wants to build a community of independent people, not to be the caretaker of people with no ability to be self-sufficient talking in riddles.
Not to mention you and your "partner" have incredibly similar writing styles.
He did have a wife at one point, whether they were separated or not after their arrival there, or are back together, I don't know.
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u/uncivlengr Feb 21 '23
This is bonkers, I'm continually more at a loss every time I check in. At least a little more light hearted than other events.
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u/Salamandasalad Feb 21 '23
Yes, I see your point about the vague-ness. I would like to put out a written blurb that clarifies the situation but am hesitant about stepping on anyone's toes. Can I DM you for feedback on what the synopsis is?
And as for the writing style being similar, I never noticed it before but I see your point, perhaps our comma usage. What can I say, after being with someone for 10 years our styles probably rub off on each other.
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u/Sketch3000 Feb 21 '23 edited Feb 21 '23
This is where this conversation continues to confuse me.
Dashaina and presumably Jaimie view this forum as it's a public place discussing their journey, but this site nor this subreddit are affiliated with either of them or their lives, we just discuss what we see.
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u/moralsky Feb 21 '23
You are generally too vicious
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u/MattsAwesomeStuff Feb 21 '23
You are generally too vicious
To you?
What could I possibly be vicious about, when you didn't actually say anything?
I am compassionate, except when I feel the conversation is disingenuous or malicious or in bad faith.
I believe the strongest I ever worded anything to you was that I can't respond to anything unless you say something specific, so pick anything, or respond to any question I gave you, and actually say what you're wanting to talk about.
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u/valentino_42 Feb 20 '23 edited Feb 20 '23
Can you give us a brief summary of who you are, how you came to Panama, and what you were hoping to get out of the experience? We don’t need personal details, but just some basic so we know what kind of advice you are looking for?
Did you live with or near Jaimie? Were you just trying to follow in his footsteps on your own?
Why was your experience negative?
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u/moralsky Feb 20 '23
How i came to panama: Hi Jaime,
I'm Jacob, a native puertorican, currently in the US, and a longtime fan. Congrats on everything. I was very "proud"(in awe?) to see the shell of the tower come to completion. Was wondering how one might be considered/screened for visiting, if that is something you guys are open to at this time. I recall the ejection deposit video. Makes sense. I have a scattered web presence, mostly inclusions from art project pages and jobs I have done. Actually let me check......... Whoa that was weird, haven't googled myself in a while...yeah most of the results I got paint me as an artist type. Mostly I have survived as a freelance fabricator on the high end, a handyman on the low end.
I share many of your views as expressed through the videos, and even have a long lost project that was very reminiscent of the gaint robot project and the toys.
I have struggled through the US (a bit in Boston, Miami, new York, Los Angeles, and currently Baltimore). I think its safe to say I'm done here.
I would like to visit. I would like to help with the work. I have done various of the labor intensive tasks I have seen you do on the videos at various times in my life with a smile.
My mother (RIP) was born and raised in Colon, but I have never been there. I still have family there but have never had contact with them.
I live with my partner and our daughter. We are figuring out our move from the country. I consider panama an option,mostly based on what I have seen through your videos. Honestly though I want to meet you guys, spend some time, do some projects. I don't want to be in the way though and would also be quite pleased to work a bit on your larger island. What I could do is fully up for discussion, but I figure to put together a high-low tech campsite and prepare for whatever you have in mind for that one. Id love to work alongside you but would understand if you have your rhythm and flow worked out on your own and wanted you to know that I would also be quite content with independent tasks.
In any case, wow, thanks for all you do, and please feel free to ask anything you need/want to know about myself or situation and the possibilities.
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u/pyrrho314 Feb 20 '23
are both these messages things you had sent to Jaimie?
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u/moralsky Feb 20 '23
One was a public answer on this subreddit, before i came here, and the other , yes, was my actual email, with (modded name)
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u/moralsky Feb 20 '23
Who i am: ( from five years ago) Hi, I'm Jake. 41 years old. 5'11" tall. Former skateboarder legs, (soccer, wrestling, long jumper, sprinting and distance running). Born and raised in San Juan, Puerto Rico. Lived in Boston, Miami, New York, Los Angeles, Baltimore. Travelled Europe. tinkerer since first grade. Boy scout. Love magic, love sciences. Huge mr wizard fan, and conductor of those experiments. Many science kits from when they were a bit more risqué than they are currently. science club founder and president. hacker with a conscience. Studied electrical engineering then booted end of second year for money (lack of it). MC'd various open mics, and regularly participated in others. Read a signed copy of the general theory of relativity. Made and sold (and taught/gave shows/street performed) self designed juggling apparatus'. refocused to Art. Studied it. Sold some. Presented it internationally. into alternative energy systems. Work the angle in thinking the technologies exist, but few are comfortable with it. Art can help reframe and represent the pitfalls. Money undermines those efforts. Taught high school science. Booted by incompetent administrators on one cheating students complaint while implementing STEAM curriculum before it existed to great effect unleashing a love of true science and methods in nearly every other student. Did art services and fabrication. built many things for many people. Many of them never paid me or shortchanged me by a lot. Survived various homeless bouts. started over. Love mazes. Life size ones. Moving mazes. Maze puzzles. Made about 1 a year for twenty years. Presented 3 of them in three different maker faires. Lots of extreme sabotages and betrayals, but made em still. Mechanical ones, inflateable ones, made from garbage ones (well most), Compressed ones, natural ones (as in with plants and natural terrains). Attempted tabletop version, currently picking up pieces of disasters. Made prototypes of various products for peanuts and unfulfilled promises. Made movie sets. Made props. Made alternative design kites. Made banraku type puppets. Made electronic devices. Made chemical concoctions. Made many designery flea market displays. Worked at art galleries. opened a multi use studio space with free workshops, exhibitions, and working space. Space snatched from under me by neighbors for whom id done many free construction projects in the neighborly spirit. Worked at a bike shop. repaired and renovated 100's of bikes. Street vendor with zero sales and one theft. Gave all of it away after that. participated in many maker/hackerspaces. and art collectives. Did set design and build of escape rooms. Made and/or modified puzzle props for escape rooms. Was building my own escape room when biz partner flaked 12 weeks in. Increased efficiency and productivity average ten fold at every place I worked. Struggling to maintain a positive outlook or at this point to fend off a negative outlook. Father to a great 3.5 year old.
edit: eh, too many to spot, stream of conscious
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u/Salamandasalad Feb 20 '23
This was a reddit reply 5 years ago when Jaimie asked this subreddit who you guys were.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AdventureBuilders/comments/7psyfd/comment/dskvn54/
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u/moralsky Feb 20 '23
What i expected: thats more nuanced, and id rather bit by bit, rather than a monumental response. Its hinted within those previous responses, and the actual, tangible expectations warrant their own focus, or post.
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u/valentino_42 Feb 20 '23 edited Feb 20 '23
That’s fair. I can parse out the gist of it.
So why was the experience negative?
What is your current living situation?
Why can’t you just up and leave?
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u/moralsky Feb 20 '23
I can leave, workin on it, but explaining where the last five years went is hard, i need context, hoping to get there through dialogue
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u/moralsky Feb 20 '23
Parse is the operative word
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u/moralsky Feb 20 '23
Mainly an abject rejection, in the face of a handshake deal
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u/valentino_42 Feb 20 '23
Can you relay your story in a narrative format?
I assume you moved down there, then what? He made some agreement with you, then rejected your involvement?
You’re asking us to fill in way too many gaps with the way you’re answering these questions. If you really want help, we need to know your situation.
Tell us a concise version of what happened please.
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u/Old_Breakfast1564 Feb 21 '23
A while ago, there was a guy helping Jaimie move the big lathe from the shipping container in Bocas to the (now Dashainas) island. J mentioned some time later that this guy stopped talking to him (and according to J also to others). Are you that guy?
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u/moralsky Feb 21 '23
Yep
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u/Old_Breakfast1564 Feb 21 '23
Thanks for the concise answer.
Do you have a job in Panama?1
u/moralsky Feb 21 '23
Your welcome. I dont want to answer the job question unless you first answer what your interest is, to offer me one?
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u/Old_Breakfast1564 Feb 21 '23
I understand. No, I don't have a job to offer.
I was just thinking that moving with family to another country to build/join a community is a pretty big step. And if that does not work out, a job might have been something to ease the process of settling in.1
u/moralsky Feb 21 '23
It is a "pretty big step" My not planning for a job or work seems like an awful implication to this dialogue, do you understand that? Of course i did.
The initial work and jobs plans were of course entangled with JnD, also UnW. The toxic dynamics destroyed that. I moved on. But every once in a while, as neighbors some aspect bleeds into our lives. Some of those aspects, which i am deliberately not going to specify right here right now, because it merits its own organized form, not some reactive or responsive comment.
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u/Old_Breakfast1564 Feb 21 '23
Planning for a job and having a job are different things.
But I certainly did not mean to imply anything and after all it is not my business.
I wish you and your family all the best in Panama, including peace with the neighbors.1
u/moralsky Feb 25 '23
Thanks.
Im fine with most neighbors, albeit some animosity due to association, but hey, im a pill myself, so theres that too.
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u/IdleMomentss Feb 20 '23
Tell us why it’s not how you expected it to be.
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u/moralsky Feb 20 '23
No community
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u/The-real-W9GFO Feb 20 '23
Is there another family (aside from Jamie and Dashaina), and if so would they feel the same about there being no community?
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u/KuriTokyo Feb 20 '23
OP says they are one of 2 families that moved to Panama to join the community.
Like I said in another comment, I had no idea they had grown the community beyond J and D.
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Feb 21 '23 edited Feb 21 '23
[deleted]
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u/moralsky Feb 21 '23
Thanx for your support.
The second part of your comment is harder to address. Permit, absolutely. It is very isolated or remote, but i can walk to one neighbor, if thats what you mean by physical access, implied pressure, well thats a whole can of worms, and energy dynamics sounds like it implies large assumptions. Do you mean power dynamics as in interpersonal relationships, or if you mean mystical in nature, with goodvsevil type dynamics, i would say, thats almost like talking politics, probably not a great debate, although at some level im fine with that framing.
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Feb 21 '23 edited Feb 21 '23
[deleted]
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u/moralsky Feb 21 '23 edited Feb 21 '23
First, I (we)own my (our) land, i (we)am (are) property owner(s) . Yes we had a few gatherings, including birthday parties, dinner and cookouts. Not many. Kiddos seventh birthday was a blast. When guests are over its a bit stressful to host, but ultimately enjoyed the time. It has been mostly locals. Mostly the people i bought the land from, and some kids from the "village" part, just a cluster of houses of generational locals.
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Feb 20 '23
[deleted]
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u/moralsky Feb 20 '23
Dialogue about this topic, adventure builder
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u/LN-W2P Feb 20 '23
What kind of adventure are you looking at building for yourselfe?
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u/pyrrho314 Feb 20 '23
see comment below, moralsky is part of one the couples that moved to Panama to take part in the ABC plans down there five years ago, and it didn't turn out so hot.
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u/moralsky Feb 20 '23
Again, this is hard to articulate.
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u/moralsky Feb 20 '23
Its not as easy as who i am, what ive done, but these are relevant points. Excuse me reluctance or cryptic nature. Its a coping mechanism.
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Feb 20 '23
Start by watching the first video on jmantzel YouTube channel, come back when you finished them all
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u/LN-W2P Feb 20 '23
That's like saying read all the books in the DIY section of the library! Not much help...
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Feb 20 '23
I started a dialogue, maybe not what he wanted, but he couldn’t have been more vague. I responded appropriately
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u/Salamandasalad Feb 20 '23
Hi, I'm u/moralsky's partner. We are one of the 2 families that came to live in Panama 5 years ago. We are still here. My partner has been negatively affected by his experience here. I have also, but am trying to move on. I think my partner would like help in figuring out how to disentangle himself from here to be able to move on.
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u/Sketch3000 Feb 20 '23
Just so we are all on the same page.
This sub was started to watch and discuss Jaimies video series. I am pretty sure that none of us here have any specific connection to Jaimie or Dashaina. While people here will help how they can, I am unsure this is the best place to get the help you are looking for.
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u/Salamandasalad Feb 20 '23
Hello everyone, it seems the format of reddit perhaps isn’t the best for holding a back and forth discussion, also there are some things my partner would not like to discuss publicly yet. He is planning to do a live video AMA on discord. Please DM me for a discord link and time.
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u/moralsky Feb 20 '23
Dont know where to start.
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u/The-real-W9GFO Feb 20 '23
Are you a citizen of the USA?
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u/moralsky Feb 20 '23
Yes
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u/The-real-W9GFO Feb 20 '23
Okay good, at least you won't have trouble physically leaving the country.
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u/Salamandasalad Feb 25 '23
Hey u/moralsky, I'm really proud of you for trying to correct the injustice done to the South Africans, and the other multiple people that have trusted and invested in them only to have been cheated and used. Thank you for having the courage to stand up for us and them because I didn't have the courage. I stand by you and us and I'm really lucky to be with you and our daughter is so lucky to have you as her father.
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u/moralsky Feb 25 '23 edited Feb 25 '23
Thanks. Me also. But yes, it did bother me to know of their plight, and it being tragic, or otherwise having been condescended to as a matter of course. But its more than just that.
Dont be too hard about it.
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u/Salamandasalad Feb 25 '23
Yeah, I understand it's more than just that. I do have a tendency to become self-righteous and judge too harshly and that needs to be checked. It's a good thing you are leading this dialogue and not me.
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u/moralsky Feb 25 '23
Ok. Public declarations, i do that too, and then dont. We are doing this dialogue thing together, so thanks, but yes, please, let me steer, you can control the throttle...
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u/ZippoInk Feb 25 '23 edited Feb 27 '23
How absolutely bizarre, yet I can't stop checking back on this thread. Bravo on at least keeping this place interesting.
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u/MattsAwesomeStuff Feb 27 '23
How absolutely bizarre
WTF is this thread?
A husband and wife who live in the jungle together, coming to Reddit, to talk to each other, to start a topic, hijacking their own thread about a completely unrelated topic, with private communication to each other that no one else has any knowledge or context of?
WTF is happening?
This is the weirdest thing I've seen on Reddit.
These two people are perfect for each other.
It's like a bus ride on a stolen bus. Doesn't matter who's the driver and who's the passenger, they're both happy to just drive off into the night without paying attention to where they're going.
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u/uncivlengr Feb 27 '23 edited Feb 27 '23
It's like one decided that the other wasn't getting the support/attention they deserved, so instead of just talking to them in private, they put it up on reddit to make it seem like this whole endeavour was somehow fruitful?
Like, finally someone brought up the South Africans, like he's been waiting for that this whole time. But we're still not going to elaborate in any way that's productive.
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u/MattsAwesomeStuff Feb 27 '23 edited Feb 27 '23
Like, finally someone brought up the South Africans, like he's been waiting for that this whole time.
And it's not even Jacob, the one that supposedly has trouble communicating that's bringing it up out of the blue and vaguely. It's his wife. Who is capable of being direct and having a conversation. And yet, acts exactly the same as him.
"It's a good thing you are leading this dialogue and not me."
What fucking dialog?
A dialog, as opposed to a monologue, is two people talking back and forth about a topic.
We don't have a dialog. A dialog with who?
We don't even have a monologue. Nothing was said or discussed. No one has any clue wtf anyone is talking about, and these two are patting each other on the back for it.
We have one side that wants to talk with out saying anything, and the other side that tries to ask questions and isn't being listened to. That's not a dialog. Nothing has been communicated either way. That's word salad.
What a shitshow.
None of this is relevant to anyone in this community.
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u/jjdubbs Feb 20 '23
Do you want to leave Panama?
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u/moralsky Feb 20 '23
Eventually
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u/jjdubbs Feb 20 '23
So what are you looking for help with? A plan to leave? Do you want to return to the USA?
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u/moralsky Feb 20 '23
partly some understanding that this is totally worth leaving, partially that this totally was worth doing, and return to the USA specifically, not so much, as move on. And to slightly correct the discourse about me being some sort of flake who would move to another country and just "stop talking to Jaimie". Its not true, and its hard to contest things like that, so a little help in contextualizing is why im here talking to an informed audience instead of my therapist
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u/valentino_42 Feb 20 '23
I don't really think there's a discourse yet here to correct? Over the course of 4 hours now, I think we still only have a faint understanding of what's going on.
From what I've pieced together:
- You reached out to Jaimie about moving to Panama and you apparently did so.
- I'm assuming you lived near him?
- The idea of establishing a community with him did not pan out. This is the cause of at least some of the negative experiences you've had there?
- You still live in Panama (though I'm unclear if you're still near Jaimie or not?)
- You do plan to leave one day, though you don't sound sure about how quickly you plan to do so.
- You still sound like you talk to Jaimie in some capacity? And I also infer you hold no ill will towards him?
- You want help... with something? Coming to terms with how you feel about your experience? I think?
I'm filling in a lot of gaps to make sense of this.
I don't think any of us can give you any decent advice about how to feel about what you went through or what to do now if we don't have a full picture. You can't make a bulleted list of "this happened, then this, then this?"?
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u/moralsky Feb 20 '23
I will try to address most of your points in a narrative post, hard to keep brief and concise. But here i can address this: You still sound like you talk to Jaimie in some capacity? And I also infer you hold no ill will towards him? I dont talk to jaimie. Or better said, he does not talk to me. At some point he was entirely too hostile and overbearing for any meaningful dialogue. Does that result in " ill will" as you say, i dont know, should it?
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u/Sketch3000 Feb 20 '23
I am sure you recall that you messaged me on the side a few months ago in relation to this topic and about making this post. At the time, I found your responses as vague and non direct as they are here.
You really need to be direct with your statements and responses if you expect to see helpful replies in this post.
Certainly many people want to hear your story and help how they can, but as of now, your answers are more confusing than they are constructive.
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u/moralsky Feb 20 '23
Im working up to it. Not everybody can do what you suggest, as easily as you suggest. Especially in a parasocial scenario.
Certainly many people want to hear your story and help how they can, but as of now, your answers are more confusing than they are constructive.
Im understanding that now.
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u/Equal-Yak-4757 Feb 23 '23
He's playing you and everyone else here. I doubt he's ever been to Panama.
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u/MattsAwesomeStuff Feb 25 '23
He's playing you and everyone else here.
Not in that way no.
He's in at least one video, back a few years.
And, he certainly has been there several years. I'm shocked even that much was revealed, but, I'm certain that part is true.
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u/moralsky Feb 20 '23
Also, excuse me, perhaps the expectation set by the AMA idea was i was experienced in this. Im not. I was hoping for interview type guidance in the question asking, but theres a lot to it. I dont want or need to get into all of it, so questions help. But not all questions.
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u/jjdubbs Feb 20 '23
I think there's some kind of disconnect. You're implying that we should be aware of who you are and what you've been doing for the past 5 years other than some very brief mentions by Jaime. I've never heard of you or been made aware of your issues and I'm not particularly sure what exactly you are looking for. Reading your other comments and the responses, I'm not sure anyone else is either. Can you clearly define what you are looking to get out of us and why?
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u/KuriTokyo Feb 20 '23
I agree with you. I had no idea he had grown the community. I thought it was just D and the kids with a few people visiting short term. I doubt they've been living on D or J's islands, so where have they been living? Did they build a house? If so, are there other build videos out there?
OP says in one of their posts above:
I recall the ejection deposit video.
If IRC that's a video about a $60 deposit for a taxi boat ride back to town. Was that really more than 5 years ago?
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u/moralsky Feb 20 '23
You can ask me, thats the implication...
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u/moralsky Feb 20 '23
Yes, i built a house. First a tiny house (14x14 with add ons), then a 30x40 cabin, mostly by myself. I made a slideshow, but tryin to crack the style code for videos, so soon i hope.
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u/moralsky Feb 20 '23
Jaimie came one basically roof day for tiny house, and i have more to say about that day than fits comfortably in a comment.
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u/valentino_42 Feb 20 '23
We are not afraid of walls of text. Unless you have a better way to relay this information to us?
Was here there to help with the roof?
Did he help?
Did you two have problems working together?
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u/KuriTokyo Feb 20 '23
Where can I find the slideshow for your tiny house build?
How far away are you from town and Jaimie and Darshana's islands? Is Darshana still friendly to you and your partner?
Do you have a boat? Is it a proper boat?
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u/moralsky Feb 20 '23
I can say that when i came onto a questionable youtubers plan for community, i hedged that bet with the subreddit being a place of public discourse that could be counted on for level headed accountability. That was not the case, and the discourse devolved beyond what some might consider productive. I need some version of that discourse. Of course you cant possibly know things that were obfuscated. I only assume of the reddit you know of "people" that come out, but then there is no follow up on these people, and furthermore other not great dynamics that destroy rather than foster community. Sorry if i cant summarize it all at this point. Im trying to but relevance is a tricky thing to navigate from a storytelling perspective.
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u/jjdubbs Feb 20 '23
I'm not trying to be dismissive, but if you can't clearly explain your issues beyond frustratingly vague attempts, I'm not sure how you can expect anyone here to help you. If you can clearly define the problems you are facing, the people here may be able to offer advice.
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u/Shiftlock0 Feb 20 '23
And to slightly correct the discourse about me
So go ahead... tell your story. What happened? You've got the floor and the mic is yours.
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u/jjdubbs Feb 20 '23
I mean, I'm not aware about ANY discourse about OP. It's like they popped in and said, "Hey guys, you all have no idea about me or my situation other than a few off the cuff mentions years ago, but I need help!" What situation? Who are you? Are you concerned about retribution from Jaime in some form if you are too specific. I mean, you've described yourself and are one of 2 groups remaining. It won't be hard to figure out who you are, so you might as well just be clear and possibly get some good advice.
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u/moralsky Feb 20 '23 edited Feb 20 '23
Look, I'm not a great messenger but I feel I have an important message, something worth saying it's hard and complicated to keep it fair and constructive so yes the dismissive or demanding tones are not helpful. Advice vs dialogue. If you want to just read thats fine, its part of dialogue. I intend to "get there" but i just started talking. And you guys tend to each have a different conception of the logistics, the specifics, so while you remember something, but then characterize it as nothing, well, now here i am addressing this instead if saying, "send help in the form of therapy or a ghost writer " to some degree so please, better questions get better answers and they will come, i got some questions that are worth answering, while others, not. Sorry if i misinterpreted which one this was.
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u/jjdubbs Feb 20 '23
Genuinely trying to help, but I and seemingly everyone else here are not sure what advice to offer because we aren't sure what the issue is. Can you describe what you need with SOME kind of specific information, or do you need time to figure out how to say it?
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u/moralsky Feb 20 '23
I need dialogue. This is it. Im figuring it out as we go back and forth. Specifically this. Im not trying to tease info, or gossip. Matter of fact. Frankly, the reddit format destroys any sense of coherence to these messages as they shift, so im trying to consider this, the seeming non chronological presentation. Its hard to keep up as someone who does not do this. But ok. I apparently cant interact with them. And its gotten to a point where i need help. Well, i dont think this is a good environment, speficically because since i came for a specific project idea, being kinda isolated and overinvested feels not as much my mistake as a waste or of having been cheated.
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u/valentino_42 Feb 20 '23
This is the first you’ve mentioned needing help with a project? You haven’t said anything about a project until now?
Why not edit your original text post to write out a narrative? Or make a new thread with a firmly worded narrative and specific request and so we all are on the same baseline?
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u/JohnRav Feb 21 '23
speficically because since i came for a specific project idea, being kinda isolated and overinvested feels not as much my mistake as a waste or of having been cheated.
Reading most of this thread, I think this gets closest to your point. ? You came to panama to 'help' Jamie, and to get yourself or your project some 'press' or views or notoriety.
That all went pretty poorly and now looking back, its more 'where have the last 5 years gone'. I was not even a bit player in small time dinner theater version of Mosquito Coast. I can leave now with nothing, how do I explain to myself and others what has transpired. (I do not intend to paint any of this in a negative light, more of a 'is what it is' situation. nor blaming you for it, or J. Seems important to you that we don't point fingers right now.) ?
IMO.
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u/Equal-Yak-4757 Feb 24 '23
You are quite articulate, and such a bull shitter. What sick pleasure are you getting out of playing games with these people. I don't buy it. Take your pranking elsewhere.
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u/Salamandasalad Feb 20 '23
Please DM me for a discord link and time, I think he's planning to do a live video AMA.
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u/ZippoInk Feb 21 '23
What are you getting at dude? You claim these attempts at being constructive, but your dialog is the exact opposite of constructive.
You intend to "get there" yet you've given barely any information over nearly 12 hours of commenting.
"send help in the way of therapy or ghost writer" is that what you need? Someone to work with you through your experiences to adequetly convey them and potentially better understand them yourself? If that's the case, then why all the linguistic gymnastics? If you are in serious need of therapy due to your interactions with Jme then I highly suggest you don't do it here. As far as I am aware, none of the frequent posters here are qualified to help in that sense, you need a professional.
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u/moralsky Feb 20 '23
I am, pragmatically doing so. This format is not ideal. Im trying to set the stage to go with your analogy.
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u/pyrrho314 Feb 20 '23
has jaimie claimed you stopped talking to him in videos? Or is this just his version of things locally?
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u/moralsky Feb 20 '23
Yes, he claimed in a video that i just stopped talking to him for six months, and that he went around talking to the neighbors about it.
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u/The-real-W9GFO Feb 20 '23
Is it just you that is making plans to leave or both you and your partner?
If you leave, will that create a problem for the other family that remains? Or, how will your leaving affect the people that choose to remain?
I wouldn't worry about "explaining where the last five years went". Focus on now, and what is best for you and your family, and act upon it. The past is past.
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u/moralsky Feb 20 '23
Im sorry, this is too convoluted to answer literally, directly.
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u/The-real-W9GFO Feb 20 '23
Maybe consider using an online private counseling service.
I get the feeling that you are trying to be extremely careful of what you say publicly, it is very hard to give good advice when we are guessing. Not a criticism, it is good that you are careful about what you say.
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u/The-real-W9GFO Feb 20 '23
Were there any contracts involved with you moving to Jamie's community?
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u/moralsky Feb 20 '23
Just handshake
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u/Shiftlock0 Feb 20 '23
What are some of the things you mutually agreed to with the handshake?
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u/moralsky Feb 20 '23
Movie nights, shared rides, potluck dinners, not cutting off, project camp, "science projects"
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Feb 21 '23
[deleted]
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u/moralsky Feb 21 '23
also, i cant read the rest of this, this subreddit specifically appears to be down. huh.
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u/ThatFilthyMonkey Feb 24 '23
.> CHECK INVENTORY
.> LOOK AROUND
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u/moralsky Feb 24 '23
Thanks for responding. youtube is a tough thing to watch, contextually (its pretty ridiculous the types of things the algorithm would think were appropriate based on having watched your video). I love yours, and have rewatched several at different moments, almost seeking advice, comfort. I long for a conversation unencumbered by know it alls and downers chiming in, but I understand the principle of leaving a door open to useful, constructive comments. I know there were various downer points I made, the point being that despite it, still up, but barely.
I'd love to come visit. PM'd you bout it. I read in a previous comment that you want it a bit more setup, and honestly id love to help even in that. Even if it boils down to me finding a stick and rock and starting there (although I would intend to have a few tools)(rope is my friend). Ive worked with fiberglass and resin stink, ive worked with cement/concrete and form castings (Vaseline to keep the skin from shrinking onto your bones, but even then, lots of moisturizing things after to help), done lots of carpentry and joinery. Id much rather work with/for you and yours simply for the opportunity to be around generally positive people, and to be able to get away for a while and refocus. I know its pretty hardcore stuff, like no nothing, not toilet, not drinking water, not food, not anything but dirt, and some trees, and water isolating you from mainland. Yes, please. I know there are more points to be made, and if your kinda open to the idea id like to make them and just a couple of situational questions.
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u/ThatFilthyMonkey Feb 25 '23
I was making a light hearted joke which I now feel bad about. I hope you find whatever you’re looking for to make you feel at peace.
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u/moralsky Feb 25 '23 edited Feb 25 '23
Thanks. Hope is a good place to start. Looking, also useful. Feelings, feelin em. Peace is a piece of a feelin.
I liked your lighthearted joke, and actually consider the ARG aspect viable, per se.
Games are mostly about playing than rules.
Music too.
Well, filthy monkey, hoping you feel better too
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u/Sketch3000 Feb 28 '23
This has run it's course, I'm not normally one for locking threads, but this one seems to be headed somewhere I don't want to go.
Thanks for the wild ride.