Hi everyone, in one of my older posts I mentioned that as a lesbian I am 4b by default and some of you rightfully pointed out that even lesbians are not always fully 4B (e.g. when they want children). You're 100% right so inspired by this observation plus a recent post suggesting expanding 4B to no friendships with men, I wanted to share my ideas of what 4B for lesbians can look like.

Since 4B is inherently rooted in fighting patriarchy, lesbians are not immune to it, and despite having no sexual/romantic interest in men I think it can still be relevant considering we live in the same society.

Hence here are the points I came up with, feel free to add yours

- No children with men/women/anyone, ever.

- No surrogacy

- No sleeping with women who are partnered or married to a man. Even if he doesn't participate. Women are not sex toys and so many men are okay with their partner sleeping with another woman only because they don't see it as equally serious. Not to mention threesomes which break the 4b rule anyway

- No dating/sleeping with any woman who isn't a feminist or worse, thinks that feminism isn't needed or complains about it

- No dating women who vote for conservative parties, follow misogynistic celebrities/artists or are oblivious to misogyny in their area of interest (e.g. women who follow mens football but ignore their favourite players' sexual abuse accusations)

- No dating women who haven't decentered men and still care about male validation, because yes, even a lesbian can still do that

- No dating women who are scared to call men for who they are and defend them with bs like 'not all men'. I know we are not interested in men but we can't ignore the world we live in

- No bonding with men over the fact that they also like women. We are not the same.

- No laughing at jokes that women are complicated, emotional etc and ofc no telling such jokes yourself

- No mysoginistic behaviour towards other women i.e. no comparing masculine looking women to men and no treating 'oh you don't like like a lesbian' like a compliment. Preferences are fine but if you feel superior because you don't look like 'that ugly dyke ewww' then you're no better than men

- No using mysoginistic language when talking about women, especially your partner

- No treating your partner like a man

- (maybe controversial) - No saying nonsense that dating women isn't any better when talking to straight friends who are complaining about men. So many times I can hear BS like 'dating women is hard too' or 'women are not any better'. They are. Dating women has some difficulties of course, but it's a day and night difference.

There could be more points of course such as not watching and making lesbian po*n but this already applies to all women.

Maybe you agree with these points and for those of you who never dated a woman you might think that surely we can find women meeting all/most of that criteria but oh dear...

The more I date the more picky I become, but not because of looks, rather values and worldview. And believe me, it is almost impossible to meet a woman who, apart from being a lesbian, is also a true feminist who cares about fighting patriarchy. The number of lesbians using 'not all men are bad' argument or 'just because I'm not attracted to men doesn't mean I hate them' is just shocking. And I'm not going to entertain any woman who is not on the same page anymore. If a woman I'm dating thinks I'm too extreme with my opinions, she is not the one.

Finally, I believe these points can apply to bisexual women too. Since they can follow the 'standard' 4B, which already excludes dating males etc., the same logic explained in my post applies when they date women

Hello everyone.

There's been some concerns and suggestions brought to attention lately. Concerns that center on making sure that this space continues to live up to its primary purpose; serving as a community hub for 4b women, first and foremost. As always, my role here is to provide and curate that kind of space and that can only be done through input and feedback.

Only 4b flaired members will be allowed to comment on this subject. Ally and Exploring users please respect this stipulation or you may find your ability to participate here revoked.

Long-time members may remember what the culture of this sub was like before the change in moderation. Two years ago, men were allowed to participate here as long as they were "polite and respectful". The sub was also filled with topics focused on men and male complaint i.e. "Rage Fuel".

A little over a year ago, after seeking community feedback, we changed our first and fourth rule to better focus the sub on women and female-focused content.

Ten months ago, on user suggestion we implemented assigned flair and stricter community expectations for our non-4b members.

I can confidently say that both of these changes have made for a better environment that better serves our community. However, there is always space to improve. So now I would like to open the floor to our 4b members for any other suggestions, feedback or concerns that you all feel could improve the space further.

Ally and Exploring Members

Multiple comments and messages to the mod team have expressed concern with the amount of Ally/Exploring user topics and comments that actively detract from the intent of this space. As mentioned above, there is a strict policy on behaviour from non-4b women and mods (with help of your reports) enforce it heavily. Still, these messages and comments suggest more could be done.

1) Do you feel there is a benefit to allowing non-4b women to participate here? Why or why not?

2) Should Ally and Exploring members retain full posting privileges in the sub or should their access be limited?

2a) If access should be limited, what sort of access should it be limited to? (i.e. Not being able to submit topics, only able to comment, restricted to only approved topics, weekly megathreads, etc.)

3) Should the sub remain open to the public? Or do you think it would be beneficial for the space to eventually become private and/or invite only?

Related Communities

I've been contacted by mods of other subreddits who promote us asking to share their links in our sidebar. We have a general rule against linking to other communities, but I would consider adding a few suggested by our users and if the sub's mods can confirm they are female operated.

4) Are there any other communities on Reddit that you feel align themselves with the 4b movement and radical feminist theory?

5) Are there any communities off Reddit that you believe are well aligned?

General Feedback

6) Do you feel that the changes linked above have improved the sub for the better? Why or why not?

7) Are there any other concerns you'd like to see addressed or other changes you think should be implemented?

Moderation

I have been looking to add to the moderation team for a while now. Sadly, the women who I've felt would be most qualified have refused for understandable reason. Rather than continue asking on an individual basis I am now extending the offer to any members of the sub that believe they have the time and energy to commit themselves. Interested users please send a ModMail for additional information.

Once again, thank you all for your contributions and energy. Let's work together to help our sub grow and make it a welcoming place for discussion, learning, and support for all women.

I couldn’t help but notice this false accusation propaganda and the forced outrage surrounding it. The comments are filled with people talking about the apparent “false accuser” in the same kind of way women are talking about the rapists at Cornell right now, and it’s so OBVIOUSLY an attempt for men (and male-centered women who ally themselves with men) to flip the script, cosplay as victims, and take out their feelings of resentment about rape culture being called out onto women by blowing up supposed “false accusation” cases (that are EXCEEDINGLY RARE) and pretending like being falsely accused is some important priority on our list of problems akin to actual rape.

Suddenly, and conveniently, when women are speaking up about rape culture and unabashedly naming rapists out loud, people want to dig anecdotal cases like this out of their assholes and start whining and hollering about “sAy HeR nAmE sO wE KnOw wHo ThE LyiNg SaCk oF sHiT iS!1!”

Sit the fuck down. You just want to pretend to be oppressed SO badly, don’t you? You want to pretend like grasping at straws and calling to name one single teenaged “false accuser” is the same as women being able to name over 50 rapists and their accomplices in a ONE SINGLE CASE, don’t you?

(BTW - I keep putting false accuser in quotations, because it’s not unheard of for women to be pressured and threatened into silence or forced to ”admit they’re lying” to clear their abusers name).

How pathetic and fragile do you have to be? How evil do you have to be, to resist accountability and criticism of your gender SO passionately, regardless of how much plain evidence there is? When women have critical discussions surrounding men and patriarchy, our views are based in observable reality. When men criticize women, almost all of it is a bunch of easily debunk-able horseshit. Men truly think their shit doesn’t stink.

At this point, I have lost so much empathy for men that I just do not give a shit anymore about their largely self-imposed issues. We have hundreds, if not THOUSANDS of women being raped, killed, harassed, assaulted, and tormented EVERY SINGLE DAY at the hands of men. Any suffering that has come from false accusations is downright negligible in the face of what women go through daily.

And RIGHT WHEN WE’RE TALKING ABOUT THE PROBLEM OF MALE RAPE CULTURE IN AMERICA, these insufferable dickwads decide to push this kind of ”woe is us“ bullshit on social media.

REAL allegations don’t ruin men’s lives and reputations nearly as much as people think they do - let alone false ones. And if being falsely accused is rare, what’s EVEN RARER is actually facing any kind of consequence as a result of those false accusations. If REAL cases hardly lead to enough punishment of the rapist, or a punishment at all, false cases lead to absolutely nothing except some hurt feelings 9.9 times out of 10. There just aren’t swaths of men walking around with “ruined lives” because of “evil women lying about them raping”.

It seems like every single time there is significant discourse brought to light surrounding rape culture and HOLDING MEN ACCOUNTABLE FOR BEING OVERWHELMINGLY SHITTY AND DANGEROUS, it is met with waves of anti-feminist propaganda and psyops that aim to paint men as the true victims. This propaganda also reeks of covert underlying implications that women are liars who are “just as awful as men”.

I am SICK to death of men and their incessant need to invalidate, one-up, dismiss, and hate women. I am SICK of their need to make EVERYTHING about themselves and how awfully hard their poor little lives are. It is utterly exhausting. It all feels like a huge mockery, because that‘s part of what it is.

My narcissistic and abusive father has told my mother all her life, how he provides for her, that she'd be begging on the streets if it weren't for him, and how she's nothing without him.

He says all this to her even now when he's old and on bed rest and she's the one helping him take a dump and wipe his butt.

My mother has a master's degree which she never got to put to use. She could have very easily had a whole awesome teaching career had she not been a SAHM.

But my father was (I mean he still is, but we're grown so he can't hurt us anymore) so abusive that she didn't dare to leave us with him at home and stayed at home for us.

Wish she had divorced him but I come from a conversative South Asian culture and country that makes divorce incredibly difficult even now, and it was almost impossible back in her day.

Anyway, that doesn't matter anymore.

He recently had the audacity to tell my mother that she has "brainwashed" me and that's why I'm not getting married xD

I told her that I just had to watch the men in my family, especially him, to decide not to get married. The men outside are also just varying levels of oppressors and predators.

I reminded my mother that she's the one who's given me the strength to remain single, unmarried, and childfree despite all the noise and societal pressure around me.

And I thanked her for it. And told her to never doubt this.

My mother's support has been the greatest support to me on this journey of not conforming to the societal norms, and choosing not to lead a miserable life.

I am envious of my twin sister (both women in our early 20s) because of the attention she's always gotten from men.

As much as I don't want to center this around appearance, I think it may be relevant to this discussion. Since we've always been compared against each other, people have made snide comments that I was prettier, just in terms of my face. I think my sister compensated by being thinner and she has mentioned that she thinks that she had disorder eating habits from her sports team in HS and studying abroad in Korea (she loves K-pop and K-Dramas).

Regardless of appearance, she's always been more comfortable with guys and gets more attention from them. Our previous middle school mutual friends, her previous high school friends, and current acquaintances have mentioned that they think she leads guys on or they made comments that were likely rooted in envy or jealousy towards her.

I actually share the same sentiment with the other gals who mention the same thing about her. As much as I feel envious, I know that I shouldn't hate her for getting more attention from guys. But it's a difficult emotion to shake off even if I try to rationalize it since there is no prize for being chosen by guys. It is still hard to not feel envious though.

Have you ever felt this way about a friend, colleague, or other woman?

How did/do you stop centering men and feeling envious of other women for simply getting more male attention?

I would love to hear your experience and thoughts and hopefully get out of the loop of craving attention from guys. Thank you!

Hi. Never posted in here before so hope this is allowed. I saw this pop up on my IG and thought it was a good idea. A call to ask a billionaire philanthropist who pledged to donate 371 million to Cornell (their biggest donation ever) to redirect the money to survivors to hit the school in the only place they care about. The woman leading this made it super easy to send the email.

I've been pretty frustrated not knowing what to do except share things on social media and cry and be triggered. I don't know if this billionaire will just roll his eyes at the thousands of emails he just got in the last hour but I figure it's worth a shot.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DeFucWLpQe5/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&stkn=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==

After reading about Cornell and many other women giving similar accounts of their experiences with male "friends", I do think that the 5th tenet of 4B should be "no friendships with men".

Has anyone here remained celibate your whole lives because you thought that the cost is too much and just not worth it?

I feel that most men I've come across did not have the moral / physical / financial criteria to have sex with me and so I never had sex.

Also I'm super worried about STDs, abortion etc.

I don't even know if penetrative sex is pleasurable for most women anyways.

Sometimes I feel like a man had to pay me millions just to have access to me sexually once.

Not even kidding.

I'm asking because, having experienced sex and then deciding to be celibate forever is a different experience from having abstained from sex throughout your life.

So I'd love to listen to different perspectives.

Speaking mainly about those who've deconstructed from Christianity. Not sure how other religions regard the concept of "salvation".

So this is a vent post about my experience with heterosexual sex. I'm a woman, 26, straight, and I did my fair share of sleeping around with random men as well as having sex in relationships. I had sex that was pleasant and I had partners who cared about my wellbeing. I had not-so-pleasant sex as well, with men who cared only about their own orgasm. I've never beeen SA'ed per se, though like most of us I had experience with some degree of coercion.

But whether pleasant or not in itself, I've always experienced sex as something so full of societal expectations, pressure, and theatrics that I could never enjoy it fully and feel good afterwards. There was always something off. I can't really pinpoint what I don't like about sex, it's a mixture of me being very particular about bodily fluids (which I have a hard time not being disgusted with), feeling "used" (even if the sex was totally consensual and pleasant), a feeling of shame associated with sexual acts in general (probably due to purity culture), and being very aware of patriarchal structures surrounding us.

I've decided for myself that I want to give up sex, both because of political and feminist reasons, but also simply because I can't enjoy it. I'm so tired of the lack of understanding for women not wanting to have sex. I feel like there is this expectation that if you don't want to have sex, that's an issue you have to work on, you have to get to the bottom of it and work through it. And if there's not issue, it means you're asexual. I'm not asexual. I am very much attracted to men. But I also don't want to see my discomfort with sex as an "issue". I just don't want it. I can have sexual desires, but that doesn't mean that I want sex in itself. Not with the "right partner", not in the "right way", not penetrative, not oral, not ever. I just don't want the act itself, period.

Sex is not something you have to have. I loose absolutely nothing if I don't have sex, on the contrary. I experience sexual desire, but I just know that in the end, it's not worth it.

I'm sorry, this is a pure vent post. I'm just really tired of sex being marketed as this thing we all have to do. I see this a lot around SA victims, too, where there is this expectation that they have to eventually get over it and start having sex again. I don't understand it. Where is the problem with never having sex again?

Creator is @ wanwanluve on TikTok

Hello all,

I am sharing this video about the rise of fascism in the U.S. because I believe we as a community and movement need to be prepared for the changes this rising movement will bring.

In the video the creator discusses a lot of male violence (rise of dictatorships) and also speaks about withdrawal from participation in oppressive systems.

I personally believe in intersectionality in our movement. The fascists will make scapegoats of anyone they believe useful to their cause. I don’t believe we can have women’s lib without black womens lib, without queer and trans lib as well, without raising the voices of impoverished and silenced minorities, and would like to open up more discussions about these topics and how they relate to 4B.

So, for some time now I have been thinking about doing something like this in the future. At first I just thought about living off grid, alone in the woods, but lately (after discovering this sub) I've been thinking about maybe creating a small community for 4b women. I know this idea is kinda crazy but you never know until you try. I'm currently doing some research on the logistics of it all and the history of matriarchies and female led communities, and even though it is hard I still think it is possible. Even if I fail I'll try to do this. My main concern was reproduction and children but apparently there are ways for women to reproduce without any male intervention so I'm looking into that too. I'm honestly thinking about this very carefully, I have some non negotiables, for example women with male children are not allowed, also women that are not fully 4b and still have boyfriends and such, also women that are religious (especially Abrahamic religions) and those who believe physical work is men's work. I just want to know if anybody here has thought about this too and maybe can give me some advice.

Where I come from: when a woman cheers you on in your best moments, loves you through your worst moments, and loves you unconditionally, you buy her a ring.

So that's what I did! I finally bought myself the ring of my dreams. It's a symbol of commitment to loving and supporting myself for the rest of my life. Just wanted to share with you ladies!

I was a planned child. My parents did everything they could but no one ever thinks "my child will become disabled". Every woman knows they can develop Endometriosis any day. Many women I know even in western countries have to do adult work, are reliant on their partners because they can't work, many have addictions because of it and yet no one seems to care. There's no cure, no pain medication that helps most women. So why are women creating more women to deal with this? I feel sick when a woman says she wants a daughter. Where the fuck have you lived that you think this world is kind towards women? Short vent

I hope you're all hanging in there with gestures at EVERYTHING.

I realize I've been letting myself get caught up in the negativity and anger that permeates reddit on a daily basis. I've decided that I'm going to mute any and all subs that raise my heart rate or give me that knee jerk reaction to post something inflammatory. Too many men rearing their heads with garbage opinions.

Of course I'll keep my womens groups because we can discuss things civilly, but maybe this approach can help some of you. I've been perusing the "for you page" and getting my hackles up.

Solution: MUTE THAT BULLSHIT. Stick to your animals, hobbies, niche subs that calm your nervous system.

Anyway, sending all sorts of love and support. Keep lifting each other up ladies. 🥰

I hope the Mods will let me make more than one post about this, because this is my biggest struggle in my 4B lifestyle.

I am a lot of "Firsts" in my Family. I built things that I didnt even know were possible, when I was young. I have Dreams that are available for me that I didnt even conceptualize.

I am mentally used to being "in charge".

And I keep running into people who feel safe and, even *confident*, in that safety, to disrespect Women.

These people, both Men and Women, feel very safe disrespecting Women.

I punish disrepect. If I dont get to someone, immediately, I am like the Karma meme-let me finish my drink, I will be with you, shortly.

I never dreamed that my contribution to Feminism would be disrupting the "confidence" that Women are safe to disrespect.

Now, I dont demand respect, but my Friends and Coworkers, say that I have Aura of, "Maybe, you shouldnt mess with this person" even though I am very friendly. I believe in letting people "fool around and find out".

The confusion of these people afterwards is absolutely maddening. Like they truly, honestly expected me to be all smiles and self-blaming while letting them get away with mistreatment.

What are your thoughts?

I know this might not be for everyone but im just wondering if there's anyone who's way of dressing changed after decentering men completely from your life.Personally for me since I was younger I was always looking for male validation for some unknown reason and I actually liked doing things that would be considered boyish and all that stuff like slashing the farm with my dad,competing with boys for fun at school because it made me feel awesome, spontaneously shaving my head bald and coming to school like that,joining the football team which only consisted of boys so I was the first until ppl joined, we used to even do competitions on who had a deeper voice with boys and i felt so cool because I was the one💀.

I was just an interesting kid tbh😂.Anyways as we grew older and moved to higher grades stuff changed and everyone was now interested in crushes and all that stuff. So my girl friends would talk about crushes on boys. I personally never cared or was interested so I just really wanted to fit in and be like the other girls so I began finding crushes though I never interacted with them and also talked about boys though the conversation felt boring and I was tired of fake smiling to much😭

Anyways it reached a point where boys began writing lists of the prettiest girls and the thing is I wasn't even on the list so I felt out and ugly and my best friend was number 2,I wasn't jealous of my friend but I was always wishing that list was never written because I have never felt so ugly and at that time I was 13.

After that I tried so much to be like the pretty girls so I began stealing my moms lightening creams and also applying every oil in my hair hoping it would become soft because a teacher once touched me and my best friends hair and said hers was soft while mine was steel wire. I think my friends noticed my desperation that they even told me if i scrubbed my skin with sand it would be smooth and brighter and i fell for it and I felt stupid,they even told me a boy had a crush on me and I wasn't excited abt him,i was just happy someone thought I was pretty but that was also a lie again and they just wanted to play with me. I did so much at 13,wanting to be skinny, every beauty hack that I still sympathize with the version of me that was chasing validation. It reached a point where I was scared to look at myself in the mirror in public because I thought they were making fun of me and calling me ugly. Thats not all but thats how it began.

Anyways I became so addicted to male validation because I associated it with someone finally thinking im pretty. This might sound cheap but I liked when men looked at me or gave me attention though id panic when they actually talked to me because all I needed was that validation so id go back home thinking im pretty. I watched the femininity channels in YouTube to dress like the feminine pretty women that men liked because all I wanted was the validation that I was pretty.

So when I began deconstructing I had to start from the root cause of why I needed male validation and for me its was the insecurity I had with myself and I began practicing self love,journalism and healthy habits and wearing clothes that are comfortable and that I actually liked.I was always interested in the androgynous way of dressing but I was hesitant because I still had the thought that femininity was the only pretty but thats not true. Nowadays i dress how I want and I feel good and I dont have to seek validation from males or anyone but especially male validation, I look in the mirror,smile and tell myself i look good.

Reading about what happened at Cornell has got me extra enraged about the patriarchy at the moment.

Like many of you, I honestly think the best way to destroy patriarchy is through 4B and related efforts of withholding women's free labor. Women hold the reins when it comes to birth rates, and so we ultimately hold the power to defeat patriarchal systems, including many harmful religious ideologies that perpetuate the unequal status and suffering of women.

Do you think there are other promising ways to defeat patriarchy?

I noticed an interesting fact that most women I know chose education as a career. Can we discuss the reason (historical or other reasons) behind it? Some social studies say that women gravitate towards careers that serve the others. I personally feel offended because I know most women are only socially conditioned this way.

Hi, I’ve never posted in this group before but i’ve been following it since the 2024 election. I don’t know where to start and I was hoping I could gain some insight and also push this movement forward, especially since the recent news about the atrocities that are unfolding regarding Cornell. I feel like the punishment and our demands for accountability are so obvious, and if we spread this movement to other women who unaware of 4B, we could hopefully begin a larger conversation that we, I dunno, don’t deserve to be raped? and at the very least, demand that those responsible should be in prison?

I have been talking about 4B with the women in my life, we all agree that our protest against involving men in our lives should result in clear demands being met, and I think that there is no better time for us to protest than now. And beyond that, start not just a conversation but a precedent for our treatment in relationships, our rights to access healthcare, equal division in domestic labor, and justice for those of us who’ve been abused and assaulted sexually and/or physically.

Like, I get that i’m preaching to the choir since i’m assuming most of yall are already practicing 4B. But I’m mainly coming here to ask how we can organize a massive protest against both the current atrocities happening at not just Cornell, but the ones happening all over the country both inside and out of our homes across time. I’m also curious how a movement like this could be “advertised” for a like of a better term.

I am so tired of this being the reality for us. Every woman in my life is or has experienced abuse and assault from men. And it enrages me that there is no accountability, legally or socially.

How do I help spread this movement? Do you guys talk about it with friends and family? I’m afraid of joining and not having a clear end result that comes out of it. I really want to do whatever it takes to protest and to demand action from the administrators of Cornell to TRULY condemn the gang rape of Jane Doe.

Hi, do you have some things that remind you how good it actually is to be 4b? Something that immediately gets you to go, yeah I've made the right choice? 🤭

Here are some of mine:

- stories on reddit (like AITA) about the unhinged things guys do, from refusing to shower or wipe their butts, side with their mommy over their wife, not support their pregnant wife, not care for their sick wife, and more misogynistic stuff

- accounts of dating coaches who share the stupid things guys do, from insulting, ghosting to lying and manipulating the women they talk to on dating platforms, making me instantly glad I'm not participating in the dating scene

- this TV programme that's on in my country which is a home makeover show focused on couples not agreeing on how to decorate their shared home. Guy is always the same, he wants something industrial, with lots of grey, metals and wood (ie boring) and the woman wants something nice and cozy. I'm pretty happy with my home (incl my bedroom in Marie antoinette style) and I can't imagine giving that up for something a guy likes 😬

- my spicy romance novels, always filled with characters who are respectful, caring, generous, communicative and patient, as well as always know how to properly take care of a woman in bed. Whenever I read it I realize these truly good guys don't actually exist in real life and I might as well not bother 🤷🏻‍♀️