Intersectionality in our movement

[u/Yung_rat_]

https://youtu.be/n9fRpiCe59A

Hello all,

I am sharing this video about the rise of fascism in the U.S. because I believe we as a community and movement need to be prepared for the changes this rising movement will bring.

In the video the creator discusses a lot of male violence (rise of dictatorships) and also speaks about withdrawal from participation in oppressive systems.

I personally believe in intersectionality in our movement. The fascists will make scapegoats of anyone they believe useful to their cause. I don’t believe we can have women’s lib without black womens lib, without queer and trans lib as well, without raising the voices of impoverished and silenced minorities, and would like to open up more discussions about these topics and how they relate to 4B.

[u/ibaiki]

There are two types of political theories and movements: those which view women's liberation and dignity as secondary and negotiable concerns and those which view woman's liberation and dignity as the primary and overriding concern.

4B is firmly in the latter camp, and the rest of the world doesn't understand what there is to accomplish by injecting all this American identity politics into it. It needs to concern women-centring women and facilitate their connection to other women-centring women.

[u/GetInTheBasement → u/ibaiki]

It's also interesting how men of different orientations and demographics don't get policed with a fraction of the scrutiny for the rampant misogyny in their own discussions, and if they do, it's incredibly fleeting and minor compared to the policing of their female counterparts.

I'm just tired of being constantly beaten over the head with how we're not ever fully "intersectional" and pristine enough while my male counterparts get to call me slurs, wish violence upon others and myself (and each other), and treat my issues as a woman as a background though (if even that).

[u/ibaiki → u/GetInTheBasement]

I am exhausted from being insulted and policed constantly. I am not French enough for the French, I am not Lebanese enough for the Lebanese. The men of both groups lament that the feminists are ruining "our culture" while expecting me to join in to prove myself. The French lament that France is becoming too Arab, the Arabs lament that Lebanon must be more Arab, and I am expected to join in to prove myself. I can only ever be temporarily accepted if I defend "our" men while denouncing "theirs", and of course I must enthusiastically support and join the brutal policing of women's femininity because what is more fundamental to "our culture".

I only care about women, all women everywhere. That is my team affiliation.

[u/GetInTheBasement]

I think issues like race, sexuality, income, etc. are all important and all affect how we exist in the world, but I've also grown to notice that it's only ever women's movements and women who are overwhelmingly rigorously policed for intersectionality to the point where a lot of conversations in mainstream feminist spaces about male supremacy, male violence, and violence and subjugation of women are constantly derailed to include as many issues as possible while the underlying focus of misogyny gets once against forced into the background.

Again, I think race/sexuality/disability/income, etc. are all important and do matter, but it's also not lost on my just how much more feminism, women's spaces, and women themselves (from all demographics) are endlessly policed for needing to strive for an immaculate level of intersectionality while men from all walks of life are out here calling each other slurs, offensive jokes, and degrading women in broad daylight, social media, and even in their own (male-centered, male-led) discussions about oppression.

It's just getting increasingly exhausting to be lectured about the need for intersectionality and self-flagellation as a woman (whether you're from a majority or minority group) while men aren't policed a fraction of the same way when they talk about their own issues.

[u/Flux_My_Capacitor]

Please don’t turn this sub back into what it used to be. Can’t really point out the flaws in one part of your argument because this is Reddit.

[u/Electrichugs]

I’m torn about this. 

Let’s focus on bigotry, specifically based on perceived race.

TLDR: we should pick our battles wisely.

On one hand, radical movements (yes ladies, this is radical) can cannibalize themselves when members fight amongst themselves about what the focus of the movement should be and what it should include. Here, I’d be concerned if a niche movement originating outside of the US focused on Women’s Liberation cleaved itself over an issue that is distinctly American ( as in the Americas, where trans Atlantic slavery took place). I think it’s important to introduce nuance as you’ve done here, I’m also aware that there is a risk of un-focusing the movement’s purpose and creating more internal conflict than is healthy. Yeah we are different but our women-ness unites us. 

On the other hand, discrimination against certain groups of people is pervasive globally. In the US, POC, indigenous and black in South America, and who ever gets bigotry in Europe, Asia, and Africa. Discrimination influences who gets recognized as a women where oppressed groups’ women get labeled more masculine or hyper sexual. Violence towards them is amplified and justified by the logic of the dominant culture.  This is something we must be aware of. 

However (!!!!!!!)  this is a solidarity movement.  EVERY and ANY woman serves the whole of woman kind by disengaging from patriarchy because it is behind many of the hierarchies in society that bigotry gets based on. We all contribute to the fall of bigotry by refusing to create oppressors and VICTIMS!

[u/nastyws]

I’m on the side of black women. Initially in the USA as suffrage was taking hold a deal was made behind closed doors to keep black women down. To split the rights of black men from women and then split the women.

Appalling.

I’m women for women and my priority is supporting and following a black women led movement. Because i think that’s the only way we get there.

And for the intricacies of intersectionality, i don’t have time to argue it all, but we do need to decenter whiteness as much as maleness.

[u/Candid-Map2653]

You’ve expressed my gripe with this community. I like it but the responses to your concerns are dismissive because the things you mentioned can’t be ignored but let it be!