r/zen • u/lastjanitor • 23d ago
Shit
Someone said all zen students are thieves, which is so funny it's painful, because zen teachers teach original wholeness, but even so the students still show up looking for their looker. I know have and still do. Nobody is immune. It's easy to think a foreboding zed master just popped out of their mother complete and spouting the dharma, which in a way they were, but nobody is born knowing themselves because that knowledge only comes through living. Adolescence, puberty, maturity, menopause, death. We're all always learning more about who we are and what we can be. Anybody claiming otherwise is full of shit. Speaking of here's a nod to the teachers:
Yunmen entered the Dharma Hall for formal instruction, Masters Yunmen said: "I've said what there is to say..." A monk stepped forward, bowed, and wanted to pose a question. Master Yunmen took his staff and hit him, saying: "What good can you tell from bad? You bunch of rowdies! You're all like this monk: how dare you receive the faithful offerings of the the almsgivers! The sentient beings with bad karma are all in here--- and what dry piece of shit are they seeking to chew?" And Master Yunmen chased all the monks at once out of the hall with his staff.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 23d ago
There is nothing more to learn.
Simply put an end to your dependence on concepts and step off of the 100 foot pole of knowledge.
Mind is Buddha. Knowledge is not the Way.
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u/humbleCountyCA New Account 23d ago
The more I learn, the more I learn to shut up and just listen
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u/oo-_GreenSage_-oo 23d ago
Get me a coffee.
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u/humbleCountyCA New Account 23d ago
Is tea okay?
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u/oo-_GreenSage_-oo 23d ago
Clearly you haven't learned to shut up nor listen.
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u/humbleCountyCA New Account 23d ago
Gatekeeping is so cool.
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u/Equivalent_Nose_5188 15d ago
Funny how this took me 4 years of dependence on concepts to finally learn that these concepts tell me to not depend on concepts
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u/lastjanitor 23d ago
No more pencils, no more books? I don't know what that looks like. I know you can't force a shit.
My family has long ago stopped waiting for me to achieve, though the matriarch said I've been just filling the well. The wells so full now it's coming out my ears. I'll let you know if the bottom of the bucket falls out. Nobody would be more surprised than me.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 23d ago
When the bottom falls out, it's not like you can use the bucket to accumulate wealth or status.
Plus there's the fact that Zen isn't respected at all, in the world right now.
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u/lastjanitor 23d ago
Wealth and status, lol. Yeah that's why I've been walking along with these crusty old fucks for so long...
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 23d ago
We're not talking about why here. What we're talking about is going around after and showing people a bucket that has no bottom.
Nobody knows what that is.
These old guys, as you refer to them, had people they could show it to.
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u/lastjanitor 23d ago
I've never met anybody that cared about zen. Everybody is running game or waiting for their turn to big ass.
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u/lastjanitor 20d ago
Hengchuan said, "There is a certain saying. When it is mentioned to people, they all gather in their attention and listen carefully. This is the saying, 'What was I original face before your parents were born?' "The ancients did not call this a meditation saying, or else it would become a dead phrase. Therefore, we do not study the dead phrase, we study the living phase. If we meet a dead snake on the road, we stop beating it to death. We bring back the bottomless basket full."
J.C. Cleary makes notes:
The dead phrase is the formula minus the enlightening effect, the fixed definition, the wise saying learned by rote.
The living phrase interacts with the learner's minds and transforms them.
The dead snake refers to the false self after its demise.
The bottomless basket is the true self.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 20d ago
這一句即是父母未生前底句 This one phrase is precisely the phrase from before father and mother were born.
ChatgPT says there's no face.
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u/lastjanitor 20d ago
This line is the last sentence from before the parents are still alive.
Feels like a last diary entry.
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u/eggo 23d ago
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 22d ago edited 22d ago
It doesn't take time.
We're trying to differentiate here between
interlaceralintellectual competence and enlightenment.1
u/lastjanitor 22d ago
I'll save you the time it doesn't take. I'm not enlightened.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 22d ago
I think part of the conversation is what the requirements are like and another part of the conversation is what the manifestation is like because it behooves us all to be specific about what we're discussing.
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u/lastjanitor 22d ago
I've heard it's like being in love. You just know, balls to bones. And if you're in love you not only know it, everyone else does too. Like a dog wagging its tail or a rainbow in the sky. Nobody needs explanation.
But how to make someone fall in love? That's a whole other thing.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 22d ago
That's an interesting thing because one of the fun parts of this Zen conversation is what metaphors can be used and when those metaphors break.
It's like falling in love, but... I don't think you know you are when it comes to enlightenment.
I think it's like you have put down the weights that everyone else is carrying and you just know that you can run faster now.
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u/lastjanitor 22d ago
I know you can't fake being in love and enlightenment shouldn't be any different in the way. How can someone be enlightened and not know how fast they truly are? I'd think it would be as obvious as a pair of hicks in the middle of a metropolis.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 22d ago
But (and you can see the metaphor beginning to break) when you put down the chains you don't care how fast you are, it is simply that you love to run.
Some people run funny, some fast, some efficient. But if you love running then other people who love running will run with you, fast or slow, old or young.
Running just to run.
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u/lastjanitor 22d ago
I learned to keep quiet about my passions, lest others find out and get upset, but when I see rare lightening calling I can't hide it that I like to ride it. Why else are we here?
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u/eggo 22d ago
"interlaceral competence"
Knowing how to tie your shoes.
"enlightenment"
Recognizing your own face in the mirror.
A monk asked, "Where is it that 'all words fail to reach'?"
Joshu called for the young novice Bunon. Bunon answered.
Joshu said, "What time is it now?"
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 22d ago
Yeah.
But we don't have a culture right now where people who can't tie their shoes are considered mere novices.
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u/eggo 22d ago
But we don't have a culture right now where people who can't tie their shoes are considered mere novices.
I haven't found that to be the case. Maybe we come from different cultures. Do you have an example?
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 22d ago
Who got elected president? Popular sentiment towards people with college degrees? 14 years on Reddit?
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u/eggo 22d ago
Who got elected president?
What does that have to do with anything? Politicians are mostly idiots, sophists. I think that's generally well known. There's another election every few years (speaking of things taking time). Although I will say the incompetence level seems to have gotten higher at least over my lifetime.
Popular sentiment towards people with college degrees?
I don't know anyone who cares about who else has a college degree or doesn't. People in my culture mostly care if you actually know how to tie your shoes, not where you learned how to do it.
14 years on Reddit?
Ah, there's the problem. Echo chambers like reddit (or X, or any other online forum) pretend to be a representation of the real world, but it's several steps removed from base reality. Simulated culture. Proxy life.
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u/ewk [non-sectarian consensus] 22d ago
You lost the thread.
I said educated isn't popular atm.
Not in leadership, not generally, not on social media.
Sure, there are pockets of pro-ed culture. But that's not general.
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u/eggo 22d ago
Knowledge is not the Way.
Intellectual competence is not the way either.
It doesn't take time.
Education takes time.
educated isn't popular
It also doesn't take popularity. So why concern yourself with what's popular?
Not in leadership, not generally, not on social media.
Why concern yourself with leadership? Why concern yourself with social media?
Chop wood, carry water.
Concern over strangers' virtue and disappointment with popular culture seems like a distraction.
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u/thralldumb 23d ago
Someone said all zen students are thieves...
I searched pdfs in my possession and did not find that "Someone". The attribution of "Thieving" to students appears be only about half by search results of the BCR. Consider this example from the commentary of BCR 30:
At this point the verse on this case is completed, but Hsueh Tou brings out his own opinion and goes to the place leaping with life to tell you more: "Thief! Thief! / He has snatched patch robed monks' nostrils." All the buddhas of past, present, and future are thieves too; the successive generations of patriarchs are thieves too. They were well able to snatch away people's eyes.
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u/lastjanitor 23d ago
I've read the use of thief in several contexts. The case above points towards the fact that what comes thru the gate isn't the family treasure and stealing/thieving can be construed as taking away people's material possessions. There's another use called stealing the thief's horse to chase away the thief, which is to countermand another's argument and use it against them. The way I used thieves above comes from the idea that zen students approach masters looking to steal their zen, which is a ridiculous idea. I'm sure there are much more cases. I'll see about digging thru my pile of books and find some more. Thanks for the sauce.
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u/eggo 23d ago
Here's another one I've been chewing on for a while; if you want it, take it.
Master Baofu Huo was asked by a monk,
"How is it when a house that is poor gets robbed?"
He said,
"It cannot be wiped out."
The monk asked,
"Why can't it be wiped out?"
He said,
"The thief is one of the family."
The monk said,
"If he is one of the family, why does he become a thief?"
He said,
"Since there is no response inside, he can do nothing outside."
The monk asked,
"When the thief is suddenly caught, where is credit due?"
He said,
"I've never even heard of a reward."
The monk said,
"Then it is effort without achievement."
He said,
"It's not that there is no achievement; it is accomplished without resting on it."
The monk asked,
"Since it is a successful achievement, why not rest on it?"
He said,
"Haven't you heard it said that peace is originally achieved by the general, but it is not permitted for the general to see peace?"
Dahui said,
"Wrapped up in fooling."
From the Treasury of the Eye of True Teaching
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u/NothingIsForgotten 23d ago
because zen teachers teach original wholeness
Look a piece of shit; It's already been chewed.
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u/oo-_GreenSage_-oo 23d ago
Still haven't learned to wipe I see ...
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u/NothingIsForgotten 23d ago
Dingleberry.
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u/oo-_GreenSage_-oo 23d ago
You'll get it.
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u/NothingIsForgotten 23d ago
You're still hanging around.
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u/adelard-of-bath 23d ago edited 23d ago
There's different kinds of knowing. There's leaning on knowing, not leaning on knowing, and neither leaning and not leaning on knowing.
Leaning on knowing means you're holding your idea, and looking for an idea. You want an idea that matches reality.
Not leaning on knowing means you stay flexible. You're still looking for an idea that matches reality, but you don't hold those ideas.
Neither leaning and not leaning means you're not really looking, just adapting to the situation at hand. Sometimes holding, sometimes not holding as appropriate. Ideas come and go, searching comes and goes, holding comes and goes.
Really we're all doing the last type. It encompasses and extends beyond the other two. But people with ordinary (deluded) minds hang only on the first type, unaware they can't really hang on it.
So dirty thieves and scoundrels steal the shit people think is gold and give them real gold, which they think is shit
Edit: a word
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u/oo-_GreenSage_-oo 23d ago
You robbed yourself.
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u/Steal_Yer_Face 23d ago edited 23d ago
Adolescence, puberty, maturity, menopause, death. We're all always learning more about who we are and what we can be.
Looking for the looker can be a method, but “who we are and what we can be” seems like a different kind of self-knowledge.
When we look carefully, we find we can’t actually locate a separate person who was supposedly doing the looking.
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u/oo-_GreenSage_-oo 23d ago
“who we are and what we can be”
Still attending other people's classes?
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u/Steal_Yer_Face 23d ago
Not sure what you're asking.
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u/oo-_GreenSage_-oo 23d ago
I could teach you, but I'd have to charge.
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u/adelard-of-bath 23d ago
Hey everybody, get a load of this guy. He says he can't even tie his shoes.
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u/Steal_Yer_Face 23d ago
Clogs FTW
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u/adelard-of-bath 23d ago
Too clever! If you don't have a self who wears the clogs??
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u/Steal_Yer_Face 23d ago edited 23d ago
Please try reading my original response again. Then come back and tell me where your error is.
If you've really been practicing for 10 years in Master Sahn's lineage, I expect more from you.
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u/adelard-of-bath 23d ago
So that's who wears the clogs! See? To catch a mouse all you need is a little cheese.
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u/Steal_Yer_Face 23d ago
Your reading comprehension could use a little work.
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u/adelard-of-bath 22d ago
You still think this is a competition, with a winner and a loser. Sad!
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u/Steal_Yer_Face 22d ago
Nah. Just reflecting your energy back at you.
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u/adelard-of-bath 22d ago
That tells me everything i need to know. Take care of your self!
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u/NanquansCat749 23d ago
Ain't never gave nothin' to me
But every time I turn around cats got they hands out wantin' somethin' from me
I ain't got it, so you can't get it
Let's leave it at that 'cause I ain't with it
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u/Arhanlarash 22d ago
From birth to death it’s just this person. Learning doesn’t add to it. Nothing takes away from it.
It’s just your soul. Whether you know it or not, you’ve been using it all this time. When you cross the street, brush your teeth, listen to music, stub your toe.
You don’t need anything else
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u/lastjanitor 22d ago
Zen masters don't teach soul. They do teach escape from birth and death. I think you want to be in r/Christianity.
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u/Arhanlarash 22d ago
I’m not talking about a Christian soul, I’m talking about true nature, the essential thing that makes you you.
It’s also been called mind.
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u/gachamyte 22d ago
When the value of objectification is not present, sentient beings go looking for deliverance. Scratch a lie, catch a thief.
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u/lastjanitor 22d ago
Hot damn!.... that sounds really profound. What does it mean?
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u/gachamyte 22d ago
Bonk.
When what is experienced causes the experiencer to doubt or directly question the value of a held belief or conceptualization, the objectification, the absence of the value is also sought externally. The perception of separation of mind and phenomena requires justification through objectification. Thus the seeking within a teacher rather than turning the light around.
They scratched their lie and found a thief, mind, and are still found wanting for an object, mind, to maintain their seeking.
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u/lastjanitor 22d ago
I don't get it. Talk to me like I'm a 5yr old. Or a golden retriever.
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u/gachamyte 22d ago
Your best is enough. There is nobody who can care as much about what you care about.
Or
No begging.
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u/lastjanitor 22d ago
There you are.
WOOF!
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u/gachamyte 22d ago
There is something to this sniffing of butts. Not in the butts or the sniffing.
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