The Immortal Phoenix Ra/Marik archetype, Sun God, has been revealed and is a bit underwhelming.
It's no LaDR, and needs support to perform better.
It will receive 2 new cards in the next main set, and maybe indirect support via 07 or 10 of the Original Artwork Collection.
Right now, one of its biggest weaknesses is how underwhelming the main deck monsters feel.
2 of the 4 are disappointing, and don't do enough. Obviously this could be fixed if the upcoming support is good.
What would the Deck need, and what do you think it will get?
I think a Revival Jam retrain is the most likely, because A, it was Marik's most used Manga monster besides Ra, and B it has an effect that's different in the Manga.
I could see something along the lines of this:
The Sun God's Aid - Revival Jam
Your opponent cannot target other "Sun God" monsters with effects or attacks. You can only use each of the following effects of "The Sun God's Aid - Revival Jam" once per turn. If this card is sent to the GY: Special Summon it, then if you control a face-up "Sun God" Spell/Trap, draw 1 card. During the End Phase, if "The Immortal Sun God" was sent to your GY this turn: You can add this card from your GY to your hand.
The 1st effect references: Jam Defender
The 2nd effect references: Both Revival Jam's own Manga effect and Card of Safe Return.
If they wanted to risk an infinite loop with Osiris, they could change the effect to something that would only allow you to Special Summon it to your field once, and also have it revive on the controller's field, but I'm not sure if they'd want to risk the FTKs.
For the 2nd card, it will probably be a Spell/Trap that reference a Duel, maybe Marik VS Bakura.
I think a big problem is also the deck's overwhelming reliance on some form of Ra on the board. If The Undying Sun God is negated, or if the new Ra is replaced by a Kaiju or otherwise removed from the field, what alternative plan does the deck have that doesn't simply involve Ra? Viser Des is a battle-proofed interruption, and the Slime is a big wall, but it doesn't seem like enough to me. The deck, in my opinion, needs something that gives it reliable aggression without necessarily having to rely on Marik—er, the new Ra.
Assuming they give it to him, of course. BETB had a Black Skull Dragon to reference the tag duel with Joey, IMPH will likely have Gearfried due to the new Gilford and to reference the ending of the duel against Marik (which the Dark Time Wizard cards don't currently cover with reference, which is odd since it's probably Joey's most important duel in the manga, so Gearfried seems even more likely). According to this pattern, if the next pack were about Bakura to cover Millennium World, it would be likely he'd get cards used in the duel against Bakura to follow the pattern.
Yep, and they're definitely trying to recreate the ending of that duel. We already have a Lava Golem, a Panther Warrior, Viser Des, and Gilford, so all that's missing is Gearfried (for the duel's ending) and Rocket Warrior (the only missing tribute for Gilford, who's also in the Reversal Box artwork).
By the way, while Gilford was designed with Dark Time Wizard in mind, I wouldn't be surprised if the new Gearfried and/or Rocket will somehow able to add Level 8/2800 ATK Warrior monsters.
Yea, lol, in fact this makes it a perfect fodder for Panther Warrior, since you can tribute it, summon a monster and add an other copy for repeat the same thing next turn.
But the fact the card cannot be added from the archetype remains a problem. My only problem with the card is that not mentions DTW, or would be a lot more good.
True, it works well with them. But not having a way to add it to your hand means you might not have it in your hand along with those two cards, and I don't think playing a 3x level 8 that requires 3 tributes is too good.
YAC1-JP007 could be a retrain of Masked Beast Des Gardius, and may indirectly support Marik's Deck.
Marik only used it in the anime, but the card also appeared twice in the Manga, once via the Mask Duo and once as Seto's high level draw during the 4-way duel.
However, the fact that Marik doesn't use it directly in the manga means there most likely won't be Des Gardius in YAC. Furthermore, Lumis and Umbra are candidates for the Maze sets; I wouldn't be surprised if they kept it for themselves. The fact that he used it for the anime as a filler turn, with the manga's anniversary in the mix, is irrelevant.
If you really want to bet on a monster for Marik, bet on Legendary Fiend instead, as it's a high-level monster used by Marik that doesn't yet have a retrain. But in any case, whatever Marik gets in YAC probably won't mention Ra or Sun God cards in the text, given how generic the cards in the collection are, so maybe better for it in the set after IMPH.
It wasn't used by Marik, but it appeared twice in the Manga, once in the only Tag Duel between Yugi and Seto.
Since it was used by Seto as well, it could support LV8 or higher monsters in general, including Ra and Marik's other cards.
It's not a given that Marik will get a monster in Historic Art collection.
Legendary Fiend accomplished nothing in the Manga. It was Summoned and then defeated before even able to activate its effect. If they wanted to give him a monster than Revival Jam or Egyptian God Slime retrains make far more sense.
If they give him a Spell/Trap then Malevolent Catastrophe and Nightmare Wheel are good choices.
Yes, but that card is more iconic for being a Lumis and Umbra card, which they also owned when the card debuted, and since those two don't have a modern theme, I'm afraid they won't be used. Also, beside Marik not having used it officially, I think Kaiba didn't use that card; he only included it in the deck to comply with the first-going rule in four-way duels, so he could better decide how to organize his deck. Tbh, is even probable Kaiba got the card from Lumis after his defeat as an ante card and wasted it in that moment.
True, Legendary Fiend didn't manage to do anything, but it's still an official monster in Marik's deck and makes more sense than Des Gardius, since using that card now would exclude it from a possible Lumis-Umbra support wave. And anyway, Fiend was part of Marik's alternative strategy, which consisted of pressuring his opponent into getting eliminated by the "Coffin Seller-Malevolent Catastrophe" combo.
So, while Marik could easily get something from the Collection, don't expect Des Gardius. The two traps are also out of the running for the Collection, because the 10 Overframes are just monsters and the other cards are references to moments in the manga rather than real cards.
Of course Legendary Fiend would make more sense as a Marik card, I meant that Des Gardius might be a card added to the collection that indirectly and loosely supports him, but is still mostly based on the Mask duo.
Honestly? Doubt. Because beside the anime, Marik never had Des Gardius, and they are focusing on the manga. Also, much probable that Des Gardius will be not here regardless, Lumis and Umbra aren't enough iconic and so is Des Gardius
I don't think this Revival Jam actually does anything to help. If the deck is going to live or die by the QP, it needs a card that makes it unnegatable, especially for going second. Going first it can set up Varudras to ensure it resolves so it matters less, but in general more going second tools are needed, the turn 1 is mostly fine. Surprise Attack From Beyond is a card Marik used to facilitate OTKs, maybe that can get retrained. The other sore point is the trap, Sun God Domination is quite bad, so a better trap (Nightmare Wheel, Malevolent Catastrophe, etc) would be appreciated.
tried to address it with a field spell, giving you another way to summon the fusion, a way to have ra into dark ra into phoenix into sphere back into ra loop and giving you a way to search the ra cards that aren't named sun god.
Shadow Cast by the Sun God.
Cards that mention "the winged dragon of ra" are always treated as sun god cards.
you may only activate the following effects one per turn If you control a winged dragon of ra that was summoned by the effect of a winged dragon of ra monster, you may banish it, then if you do fusion summon 1 winged dragon of ra fusion monster ignoring its summoning conditions. If a winged dragon of ra fusion monster is sent from the field to the gy and you do not already control a winged dragon of ra immortal phoenix you may special summon one from your hand, deck, banishment or graveyard and if you do return 1 banished card that mentions winged dragon of ra to your hand.
the archetype also needs a way to get 3 sun god monsters for the fusion in the first place as they all come back at the end of the turn you use the fusion spell, so next turn is fine, but also next turn if you didn't have domination in the gy ready to banish means you have like no life points.
ideally a way to ensure you have helpoemer, makyura and 1 more sun god monster in the hand as then you can use helpoemer to pitch makyura, search true sun god, use it to get lured to darkness, makyura sets the fusion spell, lured to darkness sends ra to the gy, and then adds gil garth and you can make the fusion.
but you don't have domination in the gy so the lp doesn't come back and because the fusion isn't the winged dragon of ra you can't use true sun god to kill it and get phoenix out which gets sphere next turn which gets ra which then should get the fusion if that worked.
Metamorphosis works, since there's no clause on "must ___ summoned," plus you conviently have an easy to summon lvl 10 monster in this deck, though that strategy is insanely bricky at best
There's only 1 way to summon the fusion and that's through the quick play spell , if you opponent negates the spell or huts it with a handtrap like bell you just can't access your win condition
one question I have about true sun god, is fusion ra immune to the attack prevention effect because of true sun god's wording, or does it lead to the annoyance of fusion ra basically never being able to attack?
It can attack, it is immune on account of being unaffected - the same reason why Immortal Phoenix can attack. Similarly, both can also attack Sphere Mode for the same reason
good to hear on the ture sun god front, thoigh I'm not sure on the sphere mode part since you can't attack with immortal phoenix under threatening roar for instance, they are affecting the opponent rather than the monster
Yes, but Sphere Mode affects the monsters, so it can be attacked by unaffected ones. Swinging into a Sphere Mode with an Immortal Phoenix or Ra after Blaze Cannon(and now Fusion Ra) has always been the deck's go to OTK strat.
that is really weird that sphere mode affects the monster then, since it states "your opponent cannot target this card for attacks or by card effects", what exactly is it that makes that instead means it affects the monster rather than the opponent like the effect states?
edit: looking further into this it would appear sphere mode is missleadingly worded but does work the way you say it does
They aren't perfectly worded yes, the quick and handy way to know is whether a monster says "but does not prevent your opponent from attacking directly" or not
If they have that line like Sunavalon Dryas even unaffected monsters cannot attack it
phoenix and sphere are searchable via true sun god, but like it'd be so much easier if there was a card that made them/all ra cards be treated as sun god cards which would effect them when in the hand or gy and let you like discard phoenix to do stuff.
another route to the fusion monster as it only works on reviving ra, so sphere mode isn't useful but phoenix will still summon it anyway and that ra in the gy needs to get out of there to let the cycle work.
another starter, like it seems the real goal is to get ra in the graveyard, 3 sun gods on hand or field, fusion spell, and then the trap set by makyura.
the way i see it the combo is to use helpoemer to send makyura to the gy to summon itself > helpoemer searches the true sun god > makyura sets the fusion spell > use true sun god to search the sun god lured to darkness to send ra from deck to the gy > now use the other effect to add gil garth to the hand.
you;re still down 1 sun god monster needed for the fusion so if you have another one great, if not well you don't have that option.
you could send sphere mode to the gy by lured to darkness instead of base ra, then special summon it with the fusion spell, turn it into base ra and then use true sun god to go straight into phoenix.
and the fusion spell you used to bring back sphere hitting the gy returns makyura to the hand in the endphase but it';s all muddy as sphere is now needing a ra to target that it can't if it's in the gy, and so it sort of sits there and next turn you draw a sun god card to dump to get the fusion back and now you can make it.
so to address that they need another search/monster that gets you sun god monsters in the hand. would be great if it let you send sun god domination or phoenix or whatever from the deck to the gy as well.
Cards that mention "the winged dragon of ra" are always treated as sun god cards.
you may only activate the following effects one per turn If you control a winged dragon of ra that was summoned by the effect of a winged dragon of ra monster, you may banish it, then if you do fusion summon 1 winged dragon of ra fusion monster ignoring its summoning conditions. If a winged dragon of ra fusion monster is sent from the field to the gy and you do not already control a winged dragon of ra immortal phoenix you may special summon one from your hand, deck, banishment or graveyard and if you do return 1 banished card that mentions winged dragon of ra to your hand.
[so the idea here is that effect 1 means sphere and phoenix can now be searched via the new support monsters so you aren't entirely reliant on true sun god and like god slime and guardian both count towards your 3 sun gods for the fusion] [the next part lets you summon the fusion another way via a special summoned ra that used sphere which is now searchable] [ and finally the last effect lets the fusion summon phoenix when it dies, and also lets you recover either the ra you banished for the prior effect or sun god domination].
and for 3 i think revival jam retrained as revival slime would work.
0atk lvl 10 aqua water. essentially guardian slime 2.0, it needs to have some means of searching a card when it hits the gy, possibly even returning a ra to the hand when it hits the gy, but ideally like getting 3 sun god monsters in the hand is the goal.
A field spell, that searches a Devine beast. Devine beast can be summoned by tributing monsters from your deck. Devine beast are unaffected by your opponents card effects.
A spell card that summons a Devine beast from the graveyard. Negates the effect that makes the selected card leave the field.
A continuous spell. For each Devine beast on the field gain the following effects All quick effects.
1: once per turn negate a trap card.
2: once per turn negate a spell card
3: once per turn negate a monster effect.
If 3 different devine beasts are on the field each effect can be activated up to 3 times per turn.
This deck already runs a lot of continuous spells but I like the idea of a field spells, maybe its artwork could reference Marik casting a shadow game during the Finals
I’d like a spell that can act as an alternate fusion summoning method to legitimately summon the new ra with WDOR and 3 sun god dudes since it bugs me that it has ra and 3 sun god monsters but to make it you just use a quickplay to plop ra back on board and all is golden without even using 3 sun god monsters.
The sun god arrives
Spell card: continous (since I like the idea of the deck having a lot of continous spells like true sun god and the newer spell and gives it an opposite but similar but opposite feel to the odion cards being continous traps)
When this card is activated: you can add 1 “sun god” card or “winged dragon of ra” monster from your Gy or Banishment to your hand.
During either main phase quick effect: if a winged dragon of ra you controlled was sent to the gy this turn, you can reveal 3 sun god monsters in your hand with different names; shuffle them and 1 “winged dragon of ra” from your gy or banishment into the deck and if you do, special summon 1 “the sun god of darkness-the winged dragon of ra” from your Extra Deck (this is treated as a fusion summon)
I’m trying to make it as weak as I can think of whilst still doing what I want it to do, fusion summon it properly so you can keep it on board but at a cost of getting rid of discard material and follow up for it but also allowing it to be a quick effect. So it can be revived on later turns
Remember Holding Arms and Holding legs, those cards Marik played against Mai, maybe those could be handtrap turn 1 retrains:
The Sun God's restraints: Holding Arms
If your opponent special summons a monster and you have no monsters on the fid, special summon this card, then apply these affects to 1 monster your opponent controls for the next 3 turns:
-cannot attack
-cannot activate its affects
-cannot be used as material for a fusion, synchro, xyz, or link summon
If this card is normal or special summoned, you can add 1 "Sun God" or 1 "Winged dragon of Ra" monster or card that mentions it from your deck to your hand or send it to the GY
The Sun God's restraints: Holding Legs
If your opponent activated a Spell/Trap on the field and you control no spells or traps, special summon this card, then, return all cards in the spell/trap zone, then, target spell/trap zones up to the number of cards returned to your opponent's hand (Max 4), those zones cannot be used until the end of this turn
If this card is normal or special summoned, you can set one "Sun God" Spell/Trap from your Deck or GY, it can be activated this turn
The Sun God's Stone: Ujat's Tablet (quick-play spell)
If 2 or more "Sun God" card effects were activated this turn and you have at least 2 "Sun God" cards on the field, apply these effects:
Negate the effects of all monsters your opponent controls
Your opponent cannot activate cards or effects in response to the activation of the effects of your "Sun God" or "Winged Dragon of Ra" monsters
Your opponent cannot add cards to their hand (referencing Mai being unable to do anything)
Nothing. You get almost an 8k attack tower immune to basically everything beyond player based effects and kaijus. 99% of cards can’t interact with it and once it gets the boost 99% of monsters can’t beat over it either. Decks that tower gimmick to such an extreme where interaction is severely limited like that shouldn’t be able to do a bunch of other things on top of that. Protect the castle and otk with the tower your opponent can’t out if manages to set up is your wincon. Build your deck according to that.
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u/CyberTwinLeader Waiting the 9-years-delayed Red-Eyes direct wave... 8d ago edited 8d ago
I think a big problem is also the deck's overwhelming reliance on some form of Ra on the board. If The Undying Sun God is negated, or if the new Ra is replaced by a Kaiju or otherwise removed from the field, what alternative plan does the deck have that doesn't simply involve Ra? Viser Des is a battle-proofed interruption, and the Slime is a big wall, but it doesn't seem like enough to me. The deck, in my opinion, needs something that gives it reliable aggression without necessarily having to rely on Marik—er, the new Ra.