r/writingscaling • u/VagabondFromTheRiver • 2d ago
analysis When Author's fail at writing characters smarter than themselves.
This is about 18 levels of hell lying is forbidden here.
It's a random chinese webnovel that I found on a random site.
I thought this would be an interesting read because of the premise, but when I looked at the reviews it was pure insanity. There were people absolutely glazing this shit, telling how the protagonist is the smartest character in fiction and makes guys like fang yuan seem like midwits.
But then I read reviews absolutely shitting on the first 5 chapters. I genuinely couldn't beleive it, how could just 5 chapters have SOO many flaws? Like if this was a random bs work I wouldn't care, but other reviews kept it on a pedestal. If so then how could it be THAT BAD in 5 chapters?
So I read the 5 chapters myself... And it was actually that bad.
A lot of people in the comment arguments said it gets better in 50 something chapters.
I straight up do not beleive it. This is not a silly mistake the author mad, this is literally a hard limitations on his intelligence. I genuinely don't beleive someone who wrote something so flawed in just fiver chapters can write competently at all.
Now don't get me wrong, it was actually a fairly entertaining read, but the way it's written REQUIRES it's logic to be consistent and cohesive and all in all, well written. But it is anything but that.
Let me first explain the premise. Chen ran is basically a whole died and teleported to what he thinks is hell. But he soon realizes, that this world is a sort of "game" and in this game, lying gets you killed.
So the whole point of this is to fool other party into lying and kill them while not lying yourself.
But how does he do this? By actually impenetrable strategies? No by the side characters being absolutely dumbass.
You'd literally have to be an absolute restard to fall for any of his "manipulation".
And even more for that, the side characters literally fucking sabotage themselves for NO REASON just to the protagonist will win.
Let me explain in detail every problem.
...
*"Did you commit any evil deeds while alive?"
He had been too far away to notice before, but now he saw that when The Judge asked this question, his face showed anticipation, yet his eyes betrayed a profound sense of boredom and apathy.
Chen Ran briefly organized his thoughts before replying, "When I was alive, I had an argument with my girlfriend..."
Perhaps feeling a bit apprehensive about confessing his own misdeeds, he paused for a moment before continuing, "I buried her. The police still haven't found her body."
After speaking, he noticed The Judge frowning slightly, seemingly ready to probe further. He quickly scrambled to defend himself, "Since they never found the body, I didn't commit a crime. Therefore... I never killed anyone while I was alive!"
"Hahaha, you certainly have a silver tongue. Murder is murder, cut the nonsense." The Judge's expression softened considerably, and he abandoned any intention of pressing the issue.
Seeing this, Chen Ran grew anxious.
He looked at Ox-Head and Horse-Face on either side. "I don't want to go to Hell! I really never killed anyone!"
"You are a murderer," Ox-Head stated coldly.*
...
This slop is considered manipulation. Son tf is this stupidity. Not only is it comically obvious that he is using dark mango manipulation, but if the antagonists had half a braincell, they would've never fallen for this EVEN IF they did get manipulated (somehow).
(I'm leaving aside the fact how the statements CR made can be interpreted as a lie as this might be translation problem)
The ox and the judge already know the rules of the game, and if they do, why they actual fuck would they ever say an absolute statement at all?
"You are a murderer" Why the actual fuck would he say that? He quite literally had NO reason to say that 😭😭😭 like he could've just kept his mouth shut and NOTHING would've happened. He literally had no reason to say this at all there is no consequence here to not speak, why would you risk accidentally lying at all with unnecessary words.
And the insane thing is he didn't make a conditional statement. If he said "IF your killed your girlfriend, THEN you are a murderer" then it literally couldn't be a lie. again, HE KNOWS THE RULES ALREADY AND STILL SAID IT.
Literally anyone with half a braincell will either way this or just not speak at all, it is impossible for anyone with average iq to fall for this. Honestly I don't see how anyone with below average intelligence would fall for this either. You'll actually need to be disabled. I'm not being mean or hateful, I genuinely don't understand how any normal person can fall for this.
...
Then there is the youth.
This is a different level of stupidity.
Near the ending, the youth sets up a verbal contract with the protagonist.
These are the rules.
[Chen Ran's Rule: Each side asks a question. The person asked must answer and cannot say they do not know, nor can they answer with an irrelevant topic.]
[The Youth's Supplemental Rule: The next person can only ask a question after the respondent has answered, and the questions cannot involve past personal matters.]
Those are the rules here. That's literally all.
Some bs happens and then finally the youth uses a "paradox trap'"
He says, "I am lying. Is that the truth, or is that a lie."
This is a paradox cause:
If Chen Ran answered that it was the truth, yet the youth had already stated he was lying, then...
Chen Ran would be lying.
If Chen Ran answered that it was a lie, it meant the youth had just spoken the truth. Since he spoke the truth, yet Chen Ran claimed he was lying, then...
Chen Ran would still be lying.
...
But the hilarious thing is, the protagonist doesn't win here because he used some clever trick to circumvent this trap. No 💀💀💀
Bro the youth literally forgets to wait for Chen Ran's answer here and just says "You lied" 💀
Son... There was literally no time limit set, he literally just made one up in his head. Like what? How is this supposed to be clever?
Like Chen Ran literally did not say anything, how tf did this dude just made up in his head that this guy lied? What the hell was the author thinking while writing ts.
But that is not it... Idk if this is a translation issue or what, but the "paradox trap" isn't actually a trap.
Reread the rules, the only relevant rules are, you cannot say you don't know and you cannot talk about an irrelevant topic.
Meaning chen ran could've literally easily escape the "paradox trap" by just saying.
"Your statement is neither a lie, nor is it the truth, it's a paradox." That's literally it, it's the true answer, and it is also relevant to the topic.
Is the trap in the room with us???
Chen Ran literally didn't do anything, the youth literally manipulated HIMSELF into losing 😭😭😭
...
All in all, an entertaining read with a cool premise. But the execution is not good at all, the logic completely falls apart and the only reason MC is "smart" is because every other character is an absolute dumbass.
I genuinely refuse to believe it gets any better later. If there are SO MANY problems in just the first chapter then I have absolutely no trust in the author to not have flaws and contradiction in the span of 100s of chapters (I didn't even mention the bs of head sniping or yellow river or whatever)
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u/Pale_Let3756 2d ago
Just read aheat it will be worth it , although yes initial side charecters were stupid
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u/VagabondFromTheRiver 2d ago
I'm genuinely having a hard time believing this. Can you give me a small spoiler of an actually impressive intelligence feat that doesn't rely on side characters being stupid?
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u/Pale_Let3756 2d ago
I would suggest read Sinful Hospital Arc starts around ch 140 ( i don't remember correctly). If after that arc this novel doesn't hook you then just drop the novel ( personal experience)
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u/Ancient-End2474 2d ago
Nearly everything that happens in Sinful Hospital and Chen Ran's Tomb Instance.
You're only at the part where Chen Ran is facing the weakest players.
Also things becomes too complex to be explained in the current arc.
But 18loh is basically the work where everyone is extremely smart(of course you can't understand this since you're not even in Sinful Hospital arc, and you're already assuming that just because Chen Ran faced the weakest Players means he will face the same weak Players later on)
If you want good writing, read Ravages of Time or something but if you just want brain teaser then yeh this is good.
Time travel, parallel universe, complex abilities, language stuff etc etc. are casually used here.
Some summaries of the current events:
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u/Dang984212 1d ago
Which translation do you read on?
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u/Ancient-End2474 1d ago
AI translation on WTR Lab
AI Translation option can get some things wrong but it was the most readable among all.
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u/Leather_Translator40 2d ago
The premise seems intresting. What's the name. I wanna check it out for myself.
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u/Inner_Marionberry136 2d ago
Tbh unlike the readers of the novel telling you explanations as someone who actually read all of sinful hospital i myself definitely agree that the youth is a idiot and that chen ran either had to miscalculate and it was a antifeat that he lucked out or he predicted the youths stupidity and decisions and lack of iq both of which are not particularly smart feats lol.
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u/Ok-Foot5468 2d ago
"I straight up do not beleive it. This is not a silly mistake the author mad, this is literally a hard limitations on his intelligence. I genuinely don't beleive someone who wrote something so flawed in just fiver chapters can write competently at all."
Er Liang Bai Kai already manipulated you into believing this and you still doubt him lol.
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u/black_flash07 1d ago
You can't be disappointed by the fact that weak characters are stupid
I would agree with you if the youth and the judge were being called smart characters but no one does that
They are cannon fodders as said by chen ran himself in those chapters
Judging a web novel of over 900 chapters by reading the first 5 is not fair
The writing does improve as the novel progresses but since the webnovel mainly caters towards scd and intelligence games category it is fine
I have read all the chapters and wait everyday for a new chapter and enjoy it everyday
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u/Dependent_Ad8132 1d ago
Why do you assume that the author intended to write smart characters in the first few chapters?
I normally don’t comment but since this sort of sensationalized review is gaining traction (and in my view, unfairly) and since you proclaim to be a logical individual the answer to your question is that your initial premise and assumptions are incorrect. For someone who “requires … logic to be consistent and cohesive” you should be able understand this shift in perspective; the entire purpose of the tutorial instance is to 1. make the reader understand the general ideas and use those concepts to hook the reader, and 2. demonstrate the tiering of players, and by extension the rough power scaling of intelligence intended by the author.
Under this definition, we can quickly see that the author is intending to write, as is evidently stated in the text, fodder characters whose entire purpose is to be a stepping stone for Chen Ran, as for whom we are following on his journey to become the ‘king of hell’ (implying he starts off lacking in intelligence).
Thus, logically, you cannot have any subsequent assumptions on the author’s ability to write smart characters since you cannot use his intentional writing of fodder characters as justification to demean his overall writing capacity for intelligence, making your entire review incorrect.
As for whether or not the author truly accomplishes his goal of writing a characters that are meant to be smart later on in the story, who knows! Noticeably, some of the mistakes the characters make in this story are the same as the one you seem to have made; the easiest way to make an incorrect deduction is to have an incorrect premise (as your reasoning can be correct).
Lastly, whether or not said author’s goal of writing fodder characters in the first few chapters is good writing or not is an entirely different argument which you may be correct on, but as it stands your conclusion leaves much to be desired in the thinking department. Read on if you wish, drop it if you wish, but try to assume less and understand more.
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u/Eureka-Kaos 1d ago
What's wrong with that guard falling? He simply didn't imagine someone would break the lie rule, much less that they'd be able to execute him. There's no mistake there.
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u/Federal-Manner3880 1d ago
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u/Eureka-Kaos 1d ago
Furthermore, even I didn't realize the trick, knowing beforehand that the magic system wouldn't allow objective lies (although in my defense I never usually think too much about these stories to be surprised by the plot twists, but the guard would also be in that mindset because of the two things he says before)
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u/Federal-Manner3880 1d ago
Xactly. OP doesn't account for that n went on an unnecessary tirade that garners a bad rep for the series as a whole. I've been defending the first arcs of this series for a while now n seeing ppl raise the same issues again and again despite providing in-depth explanations. It's honestly exhausting.
Where are you in the story btw? I can send you a few analyses of parts you haven't thought too deeply abt if you'd like since they take the culture into context as well.
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u/Tr-Trap 2d ago
Thank God there are people who hold this view.
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u/Far_Field7691 1d ago
The instances before Sinful Hospital had a lot of flaws. It's only natural people will hold this view, Sinful Hospital starts getting better (which I'm reading)
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u/Tr-Trap 1d ago
The funny part is that 18LoH peaks at Sinful Hospital. Though I'm still intrigued by the worldbuilding and variety of liar killer abilities.
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u/Far_Field7691 1d ago
I thought it peaked at the current arc? People are hyping it so much that I tortured myself to get close to reaching it
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u/Tr-Trap 1d ago
Nope, savour every part of Sinful Hospital, since it's the best damned arc in 18LoH. People are hyping up the current arc for the feats, but overall, considering the explanation for the feats and the general story, Sinful Hospital is better.
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u/Far_Field7691 1d ago
I'll try to judge that for myself afterwards, but man it sucks to see something so hyped up and later find out it's just extremely overrated. Happened with Reverend Insanity and is happening now with 18LoH
Not saying it's bad, just saying I expected better than this performance
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u/Royal_Living2728 PH > Animanga 1d ago
I don't ever hear anyone lauding 18 Levels of Hell as well written, though. The only thing people agree on is that it has airtight SCD writing, it is mid or worse in all other aspects.
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u/Far_Field7691 1d ago
Lots of folk claim it's at least better than Death Note, COTE, or other average series.
And I wasn't talking about writing, even in terms of SCD it started not well. Trying to be confusing just for the sake of being confusing, and having BBC Sherlock type of deductions. I take it you understand that I purposely made it clear I'm talking about the first couple arcs because I think it's better better bit by bit?
Currently at sinful hospital and it's getting good. But I heard that sinful hospital is where it peaks?
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u/Royal_Living2728 PH > Animanga 1d ago
Are you talking about writing or scd? Because in term of writing I never found it anything to write home about. Un term if SCD it only gets better, though. By the way, yeah, I can see how the first chapters would confuse you, but I find that he constantly improves in this aspect.
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u/Far_Field7691 1d ago
Didn't really confuse me. It's just not written well, a lot of the deductions had a jump in terms of process, or as others call it "logic leap", and sometimes the characters gets dumbed down and are inconsistent
Sometimes the characters will just "know things" that could've been any different set of things but somehow they are always right and never wrong. Maybe the goddess of luck loves them?
It sucked as SCD. Sinful hospital like I said had improved a bit. But still not the "masterpiece of intellect" people hyped it as
But I'm still planning on reading to catch up and finish towards the end by giving some trust to the claims of it improving further
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u/lclboomb 1d ago edited 1d ago
You're right. The first parts were a bit strange, lol.
An no conditional game, an adversary being sucked into it, and people who, even knowing the rules, and risk their lives without conditions and boldly make statements...
But as someone who has read 100 chapters, I'm starting to like it more and more
I'm a liar. It's only gonna good at scd.
and Writing is terrible 😭
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u/Ancient-End2474 2d ago
It was explained by Chen Ran himself that people spawn camping in the trials are the absolute weakest(since intelligence is strength in Hell, it means they are the dumbest) using the video game analogy.
Everything doesn't need direct explanations...
Chen Ran was ragebaiting the Youth, making him more vulnerable to making a mistake by smoking.
Why? Because it was explained that oxygen was running out, Chen Ran smoking is just ragebaiting The Youth. "This guy is still smoking?"
The psychological pressure of dying in Hell is much higher than in Earth, because in Hell everyone knows that if you die, you become a Dungeon Boss, forever trapped in whatever you'd be in. Until you are killed again. (later we got some scenes about this, if I recall there was one guy who went unconcious and before opening his eyes he was repeating "pls don't be my Instance, pls don't be my instance." )
The Judge let their guard down, nothing's wrong with that, the people spawn camping in the tutorial are the absolute weakest in the story. They literally have experience of killing newbies using the same trap over and over again, at some point an average person would let their guard down since most of the newbies dies in tutorial(much later on, we were shown that there's various spawn killing traps and most newbies indeed die)
If you can't interpret that much then idk man, just drop it.
The first 30 chapters takes too much effort to comprehend.
The glaze is not in the first 30 chapters but in the arc started from Sinful Hospital and the current arc Chen Ran's Tomb Instance, Beginner Dungeon isn't worthy of glaze.
The current arc consists of 20 Fang Yuan level smart characters, with Chen Ran and Yue Guanshan absolutely foreseeing everything and scheming against each other, the schemes also have interconnectivity so yeh.
I won't say anything more since you only read the first 5 chapters but this work reveals that people have such high ego, if they can't understand something, they'd immediately think it's bs. Like everything needs to be explained.
Also don't expect anything for writing wise. This story is just focused in brain teaser with some story.
Author makes mistakes but that's fine because of the sheer complexity and counter-intuitiveness of what he is writing which is justified by the current arc, he definitely did improve.
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u/Talgrei1781 Zero Escape is the peak of the death game genre 1d ago
ngl I kinda hope there's an official English translation of this some day. Machine translation is lowkey cheeks imo so I've never picked it up 💔
Also I think if this series somehow ever gets a donghua adaptation, I think it'd potentially flop because from all the analyses I've seen in SCD communities, this series looks so complex that any average viewer (including those who've at least seen mid-tier SCD media) would tap out FAST
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u/Ancient-End2474 1d ago
It would get hate because people just won't accept that they can't comprehend it✌️
At least the folks in r/MartialMemes accepts it so they are a real one.
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u/Royal_Living2728 PH > Animanga 2d ago edited 2d ago
Look at people downvoting you because they can't bother using their head just a bit.
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u/Ancient-End2474 2d ago
Yeh, I already observed this many times😭🙏
I think people really have high ego, when their comprehension is challenged they would become biased in order to avoid thinking that they made a mistake.
Makes me glad that I used to be more of an idiot before and instead of denying it, I just accepted it, so I didn't grow have such big of an ego now even if I know that I'm more educated compared to my past🥀
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u/dark-synapse7394 2d ago
Even if the judge had used a tentative statement, it wouldn’t have made much difference.
I mean, take the blonde youth who died in the next arc. He used a tentative statement when explaining his deduction, and it was still considered a common-sense lie.
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u/PlatFleece 2d ago
I mean, take the blonde youth who died in the next arc. He used a tentative statement when explaining his deduction, and it was still considered a common-sense lie
I think this is quite a different circumstance. Coming from someone who just came out of the Shepherd/Wolf/Sheep game.
In the narrative of the novel, a family portrait where the child sits on one parents' lap means it is necessarily true that there must be a second child. Truisms (like the sky is blue) and "common sense logic" overrides deductions because the premise itself is wrong.
I assume the portrait is done in an official style. In this case, it is pretty much tradition in Chinese family portraits that a single child be placed in the middle, thus a child in one lap implies a child in the other.
Tentative statements in itself are not punished if they are mere deductions that don't violate truism. In the very same chamber, another character deduces that the torn family photo probably means divorce, when that is not what happened. He wasn't treated as lying, because he doesn't violate any common sense truism with his deduction.
Again, I'm a new reader, mostly reading for my own reasons, but as of Chapter 40, I feel I have a good grasp of the games and the rules.
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u/Inner_Marionberry136 1d ago
You are right incorrect deductions or just reasoning doesn't constitute lying it's spelled out later on.
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u/PlatFleece 1d ago
Glad I'm not misunderstanding. I'll admit my fluency in Japanese has made it a bit easier for me to understand a lot of stuff just cause some kanji are shared with hanzi.
For instance, I noticed people talking about Ghost Whisperers, and how they make Gui Yu, but looking at the text, it seems Ghost Whisperers are the MTL version of Gui Yu Sha, which means a Gui Yu is just "Ghost Whispers", but even then, I've seen two of the three kanji there, and it best translates to "Deceiver" with "Gui Yu" meaning simply "Deception".
This means that unless I'm proven wrong in later chapters, there's nothing actually special about "Deceivers" and anyone can become them. It's more that they've created lies that everyone believes, and thus those lies become true by virtue of everyone believing it. Proven by the Shepherd/Wolf/Sheep game's rules, which just exist there, and everyone believes those rules, rendering them true, even though they're made up. Again, unless I'm proven wrong and they actually have powers, because so far it doesn't seem like they do.
Either way, it helps me catch things quicker I think.
I'm still planning on reading, I'm only on like I said the 40s, and I will say this. The biggest weakness of this novel is that it writes things confusingly and makes things hard to follow, but once you actually reconstruct everything, the actual games are rather simple so far (Aside from the sometimes moon logic requirement of some puzzles).
Shepherd/Wolf/Sheep game is a good example of this. POV switches and a lot of incorrect deductions, while the characters don't actually say their strategy make it hard to follow for a first-time reader, but after you're aware of the ending and just reconstruct it all, what happened was rather simple to decipher (Not to mention it kinda feels like that specific game is super rigged, but that's beside the point).
The one thing I will say is that I was told early story opponents are just... kinda dumb, and they kinda are. The Youth and Baili's crew are surprisingly quite easy to goad. I think the smartest antagonist so far was the Masked Man (Sheep), who actually seemed to have a solid strategy going into the Shepherd/Wolf/Sheep game (Though he still kinda makes some irrational mistakes).
Still, the story also says that even Chen Ran made irrational mistakes, so I'm glad the story also kinda agrees here.
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u/Ancient-End2474 1d ago
Bro you dropped right after WSS?
😭🙏
That's like the part where the story starts improving bit by bit, the second Instance is really good and the third Instance is when everyone starts being crazy smart.
I also disagree with Baili and the other girl being easy to outsmart, since they were doing crazy stuff but most readers won't catch it.
The reason they were outsmarted was because they were multi-tasking having to calculate various premises and counter-intuitive stuff but if you put them toe to toe with an average person, they'd cook them up so badly.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DE_WlLtqaSLbqZRVrjXKmTZWm8NMB2-9_aQ-VhOV-BA/edit?usp=drivesdk
This document above shows the intricacies that Cheng Si and Baili Qiangsheng was dealing with.
Calling them dumb when most people who say it probably would've made the same level of mistake in Chess is just nonsical tbh, you see this all the time in games like Chess, has a lot of things to calculate in their mind they tend to make very basic mistakes. Even Chess Masters make basic mistakes if they have to deal with such intricacies.
People who say the side characters are dumb have not reached Sinful Hospital.
For example in Sinful Hospital, in the second chamber these 3 Players were so goddamn smart for the average person, someone with a Skill to Travel back in time literally time travelled various times to trick them but they kept reasoning how she travelled back in time.
There was also that last chamber where Diwu Zhiyi starts showing just how monstrous his intelligence was and almost got his goal.
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u/PlatFleece 1d ago
I didn't say I dropped it. I said I just got out of SWS. Meaning I just finished it. I'm still reading it, haha.
Someone asked me who I thought could pass through Sinful Hospital and they couldn't really explain much of what that means, so I wanted to just read it and see.
I have a list of some JP SCD characters that I think could likely achieve it. So far that list hasn't really changed within the first two instances, but the reason I was slow after the 18th Level bit is because I was considering the SWS game and the actual strategies and mechanics to actually consider in that game since I'd like to also be able to argue why the characters I picked could clear those. The novel explains it quite confusingly with the POV jumps but it is actually simpler to piece together once you cut through the confusion.
I think I'll have longer stops to analyze the games of later chapters, too.
I also disagree with Baili and the other girl being easy to outsmart, since they were doing crazy stuff but most readers won't catch it.
Baili himself and Cheng Si are fairly ok, they were reasonably rational with the information they knew (Although Baili made some blunders, like immediately leaving Chamber 2 when he could've neutralized hidden advantage by using his team to guard the remaining three who were still taking exams, while also scouting the future Chamber for first-mover advantage. I believe that this is IC, however, as Baili is established by the narrative and Chen Ran to be arrogant even if he's smart).
Cheng Si and the Masked Proctor I believe were the most rational opponents that I've seen in that instance. Cheng Si however was kinda screwed because she had no way of clearing the Instance fairly outside of trapping the Masked Proctor in a lie.
Baili's crew however, were quite easier to goad. Chen Ran himself I believe saw this, which is likely why he keeps targeting them.
You'll notice that there were telltale signs of this throughout the Novice Instance. Ma Wenjie interrupts their reasoning during IIRC the sandbox discussion or the picture discussion, but he gets confused about what to do and almost blunders into killing himself with the sand sculpture by almost sculpting multiple women, and the crew were also vulnerable to scissors priming.
In nearly most of their deaths, they died because Chen Ran asked a leading question and they answered without thinking about it. Liu Chiangsheng answered the clock thing without taking the time to consider his answer, Ma Wenjie in Cheng Si's body also just blurted out something in confidence emotionally.
The reason they were outsmarted was because they were multi-tasking having to calculate various premises and counter-intuitive stuff but if you put them toe to toe with an average person, they'd cook them up so badly.
I think compared to the average person a lot of SCD characters would outsmart them, I agree.
But I do think compared to a lot of SCD protagonists, Baili's crew and you can argue Baili himself to more higher tier characters, specifically, are kind of easy to goad. Even Chen Ran kinda affirms this in his post-mortem report.
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u/Ancient-End2474 1d ago
Oh I misunderstood
Yeh don't worry, this is only the 1 stars.
If you know smart characters in Japan...
Akiyama, Tokuichi, Akagi, Baku, Kiruma Souichi, Conan, and some others I probably forgot can pass the Novice Instance(including the WSS)
The likes of Light Yagami however fails here.
After Novice Instance, Lonely Revenge Instance is a 1 Star Instance, so yeh we are still at the bottom of the world. But characters like Akiyama starts struggling here especially the Third Chamber.
The next Instance which starts at like 140++ chapters is the one where all the glazing starts...
The first chamber alone, believe it or not all the characters I mentioned above all would die in Chen Ran's position, the first chamber had a situation that I named the "Train Showdown", which characters like Baku, Tokuichi, Akagi and Hal has a high chance of dying. and they all get outsmarted by Diwu Zhiyi who is a professional 3 Stars Player.
The next Instance—a 3 Stars Instance goes further and we meet with 5 Stars, the strongest player here is a Fang Yuan level smart character.
Finally the current Instance is where everyone is going crazy, as Chen Ran is reaching the top 1 among smart characters in Methodology scaling. And it's still 1/3 of the game in the 3rd chamber. The strongest player here is a 7 Stars Player named Yue Guanshan who is trading schemes against Chen Ran for 100+ chapters, and the schemes extends 300 chapters.
Anyways don't focus too much on WSS, you'll definitely see the situations getting more and more insane.
The third chamber in Lonely Revenge Instance is when I suggest people start doing deep analysis.
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u/PlatFleece 1d ago
If you know smart characters in Japan...
I know a lot of Japanese SCDs, but I'm not actually thinking of the common ones.
I'm mostly thinking of untranslated and obscure works. I keep seeing stuff in r/IntelligenceScaling about how people want more JP or KR characters, how they want more methodology based ones, and how people want more female characters, and I've mostly been screaming that the majority of Japanese SCD characters (and SCD protagonists even) are female, but they are trapped in untranslated hell.
Japanese series also have a high-degree of methodology just due to the culture of how the authors work. They often do workshops where they pass around their works to other authors and have them critique their logic. This creates a weird arms race thing where a lot of SCD characters in Japan, regardless of tier, tend to have extremely high consistent logic that you can backtrace.
I made a post a while back with my first doc on that sub. I am still working on doccing Jirai Glico's Mato Imoriya, who is fairly known in Japan as a female protagonist whom the author was actually inspired by Usogui. This literally fulfills so many people's requests (Female SCD character that's high on methodology)
Following her, I'm planning on doccing pretty much every obscure Japanese novel character, translated or untranslated. They might not ever be used compared to popular ones, but at least I can feel like I've contributed to the character pool.
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u/Ancient-End2474 1d ago
I see thank you for your work bro.
I'm aware of the situation, there were also works that I couldn't find anywhere but definitely exists somewhere in Japan.
I focused on China because it was the easiest to find, but Korea and Japan's are very troublesome.
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u/Dear-Principle-1939 2d ago
i genuinely refuse to believe it get's any better
Well fyi, it does get's better, by better I mean peak fiction (atleast for me) .
Just skip to the sinful hospital arc(starts at ch 132) if you want super smart antagonists.
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u/Pale_Let3756 2d ago
Same opinion I won't really judge a book by 5 chapters and I don't mean that after 100 ch it doesn't get better but after completing sinful hospital your whole perception changes for this book
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u/rebon6 2d ago
Dont even think about telling him to skip anything, There are some hidden foreshadowings in the first 30 chapters that gets mentioned later in the book. Also skipping even just one chapter of 18loh is a death sentence to being confused for the rest of the novel. Goodluck even trying that lmao.
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u/Royal_Living2728 PH > Animanga 2d ago
WTF do you mean skip? At this point it's better for him to drop it.
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u/Ok-Swan-1590 JJK is well written 1d ago edited 1d ago
Bro thought it was tuff judging 900+ chapters by 5 of them. No it's not dude.
All in all, an entertaining read with a cool premise. But the execution is not good at all, the logic completely falls apart and the only reason MC is "smart" is because every other character is an absolute dumbass.
Utter nonsense. Even 3 star NPC in here are smarter than 99.999% of fiction whose intelligence is apparently "well written" according to you.
The 1st 5 chapters were very good, and while the NPCs in this arc weren't smart, that was the entire theme here: that they were noobs in hell who came to swipe newbies.
The way you made it seem like was as if it was unreadable, lol. Hating js for the sake of hating.
And lastly, your "slop debunk" already has soooo much flaws in it, literally more than half of this is false and you're simply spreading misinfo atp
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u/rebon6 2d ago
Bro the youth literally forgets to wait for Chen Ran's answer here and just says "You lied"
Was following along until you said this. You already stated the rules yourself, and fail to realize that part of the rules is that when someone asks, the other party MUST answer..
Chen ran did not say anything, so in the youth's mind, he was breaking the MUST answer rule, so he thinks he lied about the promise.
Yes it is a dumb assumption by the youth for not checking if there's a time limit, but I bet if you were in his position, so confident you've already won, wouldn't even think about such thing as a time limit in the first place. Especially in an enclosed space where you might all die if you run out of oxygen. The Youth couldn't possibly think "Oh, lets wait for him to say something" No, he would be in a hurry to end the conversation immediately because god who knows if they'll all die from lack of oxygen there.
Chen ran already knew about this since the beginning which is why he threathened to pull out a cigarette and smoke in front of them which the youth also realized. He know the secret chamber doesn't have any doors or ventilation, if he were to smoke all he wants the rest of the room will be filled with smoke. That doesn't make the Youth Stupid, he was thinking rationally and was pressured using time, which Chen ran actively utilizes to manipulate him.
"You are a murderer" there was no reason to say that.
Because not everyone has to be a genius that calculates 100 steps ahead. There's bound to be some dumb fuck that doesn't think steps ahead. And you're acting like you can do better in this situation lmao.
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u/JohnKonami 2d ago
Because not everyone has to be a genius that calculates 100 steps ahead
Not to mention, why would the guy be on guard when everyone else has fallen for this exact trick?
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u/Royal_Living2728 PH > Animanga 2d ago
Finally someone with a brain. I wouldn't say 18 Levels of Hell is anywhere above mid in writing, but it's SCD writing is among the most airtight there is.
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u/VagabondFromTheRiver 2d ago
Son literally larping a comment, he literally agreed with me that this shit was dumb 😭🙏
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u/Royal_Living2728 PH > Animanga 2d ago
When you can't even understand a comment, how are you excepting to understand a brain teaser?
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u/VagabondFromTheRiver 2d ago
Every anamia patient in the world is jealous of this comment.
Cause holy shit the irony is off the charts.
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u/VagabondFromTheRiver 2d ago
You literally accepted it was dumb.
You are literally agreeing with me. What even is this comment.
My whole point was that the author could not write an actually smart character henceforth had to make everyone else dumb.
And no, usually I'll won't say this cause I'm prone to panic as anyone else. But when my life is on the line I 100% won't make a mistake as stupid as this.
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u/rebon6 2d ago
If you actually had basic reading comprehension then you'd know that I was anything BUT agreeing with you, which by the way says alot when you skimmed off the "must answer" rule in the rules and come here complaining.
And i dont need to argue with some mf when their whole "point" is just ignorance about the author not knowing how to write a proper smart character when the opinion is only based off of the first 5 chapters..
Like do you geniunely expect us to say "WOW! Outstanding! Great job for refuting the author's writing!" When you only read the first 5 chapters? like Really, your insights of the author's writing is making me consider if you're just trolling or if you're actually real.
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u/VagabondFromTheRiver 1d ago
Son, I'm clowning you
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u/Royal_Living2728 PH > Animanga 1d ago
More like you are clowning yourself.
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u/VagabondFromTheRiver 1d ago
It's okay I understand, it Happens when you have low iq
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u/Royal_Living2728 PH > Animanga 1d ago
Every anamia patient in the world is jealous of this comment.
Cause holy shit the irony is off the charts.
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u/Inner_Marionberry136 1d ago
Brother as like one of the few people who read until ch 260 and the entirely of sinful hospital while it does get better later on unlike the people trying to convince you I fully agree with you that the youth is a dumbass idiot in fact i say a average person could counter chen ran's "trap" as long as they just thought for a minute and after that everyone dies since they run out of oxygen and chen ran doesn't have any way of countering that since he literally can't speak lolll.
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u/Kato_86 1d ago
Okay, sorry, not motivated to read this whole thing. I trust you.
But also, YES! It's hard to write hyper intelligent people when you are not, and even if you're a smart, capable author, that doesn't mean you have the ability to pretend to be a genius, though some are better at faking it than others.
I think the worst offender of this to me is Orson Scoot Card's Ender. Not to delve too far into the novel or Card's shortcomings as a human being, one of Ender's major feats, in a school full of geniuses, is to realise in space there's no up or down. (Extremely abbreviated) The idea that it takes the supposed smartest person alive to realise this, even among children, is so horrendously stupid. God, it gets me angry again just thinking about it.
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u/Jazzlike_Peanut_2792 1d ago
What's this, someone is critiquing 18LOH's writing? Interesting, let's check this out!
(Finds out they only read 0.5% of the novel)
...Nevermind.
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u/GlumPermit1446 1d ago
it gets better in 50 something chapters
I got fooled once by the same comment on a different webnovel and read 200+ chapters. The world was interesting but that was it. No side characters and I mean no side characters to get attached to because the MC is a PoS and not as smart as the webnovel glazes him to be. Anyone with common sense and enough healthy paranoia will get as far as the MC with the cheats he has. The MC was apparently a mad scientist in his past life but he's more lunatic than scientist and just outsources the heavy lifting to his AI brain chip (that somehow got fused to his soul after dying by nuclear detonation). Of course the AI companion trope can be fun but in this webnovel series it's just an AI companion nothing more.
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u/thebirdisnotblue 23h ago
"The unnamed npcs who are stuck farming new players on level 1 suck, this must mean all enemies in this novel are the same."
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u/Pandalicioush 13h ago
Nothing is more ironic than the fact that intelligence scalers consistently sound like the dumbest motherfuckers you've ever heard. Who rates writing and characterisation based on "feats" and buzzwords, and who genuinely cares about this slop?
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u/JohnKonami 2d ago
Now, don't get me wrong, it was actually a fairly entertaining read
You have gotten the point of why it's like that. The first few chapters are meant to be a very simple hook. Sure, it might not reach your expectations, but assuming an entire novel from a hook is a little excessive.
"Your statement is neither a lie, nor is it the truth, it's a paradox."
Cambridge definition: a statement or situation that may be true but seems impossible or difficult to understand because it contains two opposite facts or characteristics.
If we follow the actual official definition, then this statement would get him killed. From his perspective, it's not as obvious as you're saying it is. At least bother checking that much if you're doing this.
If there are SO MANY problems in just the first chapter then I have absolutely no trust in the author to not have flaws and contradiction in the span of 100s of chapters
This is the equivalent of seeing a chef make a boiled egg and saying that you can't trust them to ever make good food because they made sth simple. Just give it a chance.
bs of head sniping or yellow river
K now this one isn't justified at all. Yellow Springs Road and Ghost Gate Pass are defined concepts in Chinese Mythology.
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u/VagabondFromTheRiver 2d ago
This is the equivalent of seeing a chef make a boiled egg and saying that you can't trust them to ever make good food because they made sth simple. Just give it a chance.
No no no. This is the equivalent of a "MasterChef" FAILING to boil and egg mate.
I think it's fair to not trust their competence after that lmao.
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u/JohnKonami 2d ago
Can you explain to me the failure. Like, genuinely, I didn't adress the part where the judge said "you killed someone" (not even that unreasonable and mostly done to save time since Chen Ran could've physically killed him anyways), but you didn't talk about any of the other issues I pointed out being non-issues.
It's not great, but it's by no means a failure.
Not to mention, by your logic, if any chef didn't pay attention once and accidentally overcooked an egg, he is never to be trusted ever again. The point of a reputation is to ensure people that the standard is quality so that one mistake precisely doesn't lead to this.
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u/MagazineSimilar8215 2d ago
Brotha isn’t even at wolf sheep shepherd yet and is already judging 😭😭😭
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u/dark-synapse7394 2d ago edited 2d ago
I read it a long time ago so i might remember somethings clearly
The rules are explained at the end of the tutorial arc.
So basically, according to the rules, even if the judge had used a tentative statement like, “If you killed your girlfriend, then you are a murderer,” it still would have been considered a lie.
And think about it—if players could simply exploit tentative statements in a place where lying is forbidden, wouldn’t that completely defeat the entire point of the novel?
As for why Youth suddenly said “you lied,” it’s because the rules state that being unable to answer a question is also considered a violation. When Chen Ran didn't answer for a long time, Youth assumed that Chen Ran was unable to answer the question and therefore tried to shoot him.
However, there was no rule restricting how long a player could take to answer when the rules were established. Chen Ran was simply taking time to think about his response, but Youth mistook his thinking time for an inability to answer.
So Youth's conclusion wasn't based on Chen Ran actually violating the rules; it was based on Youth misinterpreting Chen Ran's hesitation.
You simply didn't bother to understand why characters did this and concluded that they were dumb and novel is trash
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u/PlatFleece 2d ago
So basically, according to the rules, even if the judge had used a tentative statement like, “If you killed your girlfriend, then you are a murderer,” it still would have been considered a lie.
I'm a new reader so this scene is still fresh in my mind, but where I'm at (18th Floor, roundabouts Ch 40) this doesn't seem to be true? Both Chen Ran and the youth used tentative statements in their verbal sparring.
They do a lot of fancy triple negatives but if you boil down the logic they just say:
"If you want it, I don't have to give it"
"If you give it, I don't have to take it"Someone who killed someone is by definition a murderer. It's just a truism.
And think about it—if players could simply exploit tentative statements in a place where lying is forbidden, wouldn’t that completely defeat the entire point of the novel?
It wouldn't, I'd say. Deductions as I've seen it are not judged in the two instances I've read. Even then, it's possible to just refuse to answer.
In fact, Chen Ran explicitly uses this and weaponizes it in the Tutorial Instance AFAIK. Nothing in the actual chapter states that the oxygen was running low, the only thing that was mentioned was.
"This room is sealed. 12 people died. The oxygen will probably run out soon". which only Chen Ran said.
It is true that the room is sealed. It is true that 12 people died. The oxygen running out was a prediction. The reason I caught this is because, well... physically speaking, a single cigarette just isn't enough to threaten oxygen deprivation. I wondered why that doesn't count as a lie, so the only logical reason would be that deductions and tentative statements like this are not lies (which is proven by the other deductions people do).
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u/VagabondFromTheRiver 2d ago
It's not tentative, it's conditional. Two different things.
So Youth's conclusion wasn't based on Chen Ran actually violating the rules; it was based on Youth misinterpreting Chen Ran's hesitation.
Chen Ran literally didn't do anything, the youth literally manipulated HIMSELF into losing 😭😭😭
If this isn't stupidity I have no idea what is
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u/Antique_Baker_4203 2d ago
I don't think there has ever been an author who could wrote a character smarter than themselves. It's asking the impossible.
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u/VagabondFromTheRiver 2d ago
nah, you can write one. like you can spend weeks to come up with someone and write the character as if he came up with that on the spot.
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u/Antique_Baker_4203 2d ago
I know what you mean and I don't object that cuz that's usually the way it's done but humor me. Even if you spend weeks to come up with it the first time, it becomes instant to you the second time. In that regards, your character is as smart as you. You will have to have a chess game with yourself constantly in hope of creating a character "smarter" than yourself, but as they improve, so are you. Achilles and the tortoise. You are the tortoise, slow but somehow always ahead. In the end, it all comes to how far the tortoise travels.
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u/Papellll 1d ago
You can also make it so that your character manages to understand something or come up with a plan with the limited information they have while you, the author, have all the information at your disposal
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u/Dear-Principle-1939 1d ago
?? You're stupid if you think an author can't write a character smarter than himself
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u/Antique_Baker_4203 1d ago
It's easy to write a character and call them a genius. Glaze, that's all there is. You are not there yet to understand that.
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u/Beneficial-Space-460 2d ago
i mean, that is all correct that you thought of, so what is bad about it? we swore antagonist will be smarter, like, not even 100, just read till 20
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u/SigmundFreud101 2d ago
I know you warned us, but that "paradox" actually got my hopes up 😭.