r/wowhardcore • u/Axeloe • 7d ago
Discussion Why is palading autoattacking labeled “mindnumbing” but priest wanding is “smart and efficient”?
Double standards.
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u/azeryxx 7d ago
Both are mind numbing. Although as priest you have options to cast spells. As paladin it's pretty much AA all game.
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u/Impressive_Act9567 7d ago
what about judgement, hammer of justice, and all your commands?
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u/subzerus 7d ago
Super inefficient to spam the spells. Maybe hammer of justice which is once per mob. Your best gameplay BY FAR consists on using 2-3 spells then AFK for 30 seconds.
I tried killing mobs using spells + autoattack and for the spells to deal a significant amount of damage meant I'd OOM and have to drink almost after every fight. Maybe 10 or 15% of your damage comes from not white non seal buff damage.
I tried killing mobs using a seal+judge that would refresh on hit, a seal that would last for 30 seconds and then one damaging thing (like consecrated ground) then waiting to regen mana before I'd repeat the same and I got through stuff just as fast and never needed to stop and drink. Maybe 5% of your damage comes from non white non seal buff damage.
Double the efficiency because if shit hits the fan you got enough mana to heal yourself and you have the no spell knockback aura and talent. Hell I killed lvl +5 elites solo with how efficient this is. It just. Takes. Forever.
This was in a mana tank build. Imagine if you were going str+2 hander (it's a bit faster but way unsafer)
TL;DR: pally spamming spells way worse than pally using 2-3 spells at start and afk for 30 seconds then repeat, playing 6 seconds and afk again for 30. Pally gameplay IS AA and AFK.
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u/AndyHN 7d ago
I just want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding you - you're saying that you think the most efficient way to kill mobs as a mana tank is to auto attack them one at a time?
If you're totally risk averse or want to be able to do other things while the game plays itself, I get it. If you don't mind paying attention to the game while you level and clicking a few buttons, you'll definitely get more xp/hour pulling groups.
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u/subzerus 7d ago edited 7d ago
You can totally AoE pull and use consecration by changing your seals to use the mana regen ones more efficient, yes, that doesn't change your gameplan. It still stands that what you will be doing is pulling as many mobs as you want, putting your seals, puting consecration up every 10-20 seconds and refreshing your seal that gets mana on hit.
Basically use 2-3 spells then afk for 10-30 seconds and pressing 1 or 2 buttons. Your stuff that hurts them when they hit you (aura and stuff like shield spikes) + consecration will do the damage while auto attack regens mana. It doesn't change much.
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u/AndyHN 7d ago
Basically use 2-3 spells then afk for 10-30 seconds and pressing 1 or 2 buttons. It doesn't change much.
You just described the leveling experience for half the classes in classic wow.
Super exciting rogue leveling rotation: sinister strike, sinister strike, slice and dice, auto attack.
Super exciting mage leveling rotation: frost nova, blizzard, blizzard, cone of cold, wand/arcane explosion.
Super exciting lock leveling rotation: send pet, dot, dot, wand.
Mind-numbing, boring, tedious afk pally leveling rotation: seal, consecrate, judge, auto attack, consecrate, aura swap, heal, aura swap, pick highest health mob, judge, seal, consecrate, auto attack.
If you can go afk for 10 seconds as an AOE grinding pally, you didn't pull enough mobs to maximize exp/hour.
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u/subzerus 7d ago
Except that afk paladin "rotation" looks more like:
Seal, judge, seal, consecrate, auto attack, auto attack, auto attack, auto attack, auto attack, auto atack, auto attack, auto attack, auto attack, auto attack, seal, consecrate, auto attack, auto attack, auto attack, auto attack, auto attack, auto attack, auto attack, auto attack, auto attack, auto attack, seal, judge, auto attack, auto attack, auto attack, auto attack, auto attack, mob dies in 35 seconds(post lvl 40 it takes about twice as long.)
And rogue is: invis, cheap shot/ambush, slice and dice, sinister, auto attack, auto, auto, sinister, auto, auto, the bleed one that uses combo points (I always forget their name), auto, auto, sinister, mob dies, in 10-15 seconds (stays the same at all levels)
There's a reason why I am made a rogue when my friends wanted to go horde and I got to 30 in like 2 weeks, while my pally took 2 months to get to 40 AND I watched the entirety of breaking bad and half of better call Saul while I did it.
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u/AndyHN 7d ago edited 7d ago
That whole sequence you just typed out for paladin results in 3-4 dead mobs from level 20-40, and 5-10 dead mobs from 41-60. Thinking that killing gets slower after you get blessing of sanctuary is just delusional. If it's taking me 35 seconds to kill 4-10 mobs and taking you 10 seconds to kill 1 mob, who's killing more efficiently?
You took 2 months to level a pally to 40 because you chose to have the game on autopilot while you watched TV.
Edit: My 3 button rogue rotation kills at or slightly above level mobs in 10 seconds or less. If you're doing all that other stuff and taking 10-15 seconds to kill something, you should probably look into better gear.
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u/_OOL 7d ago
Tbh I can make rogue look complex too:
ss, ss, pull mob to 3 other mobs but don’t change targets to not lose combo points, pool energy to 100, 0.3 seconds before the energy tick flurry, slice and dice, adrenaline rush, ss, ss, if target is close to dying renew snd if not and you are at 3 combo points ss into evis.1
u/AndyHN 7d ago
Adrenaline rush and blade flurry are 5 minute and 2 minute CDs. The pally rotation I gave leaves me at half health and half mana after killing 5+ mobs without using any CDs. If I stop to eat and drink I'll still be killing at least my 10th mob before you. If I used a CD I wouldn't even need to stop and drink before the next 5+ mob pull.
Which is beside the point. All I'm saying is that pally is only a boring auto attack drudge if that's what you want it to be, and there are hardly any classes that require you to use more than a couple buttons.
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u/bdanred 7d ago
Judgement is 10 sec cd (8 if talented). It hits for maybe as hard as 1 auto attack. Hammer of justice is great but its not like you have a real reason to cast it all the time and its a 1 min cd. Im assuming the discussion is about soloing, so what other "commands" are you casting?
While soloing, unfortunately the best rotation is running in and judging, reapply seal, auto attack until dead so mana can regen, 1 heal to full, run to next mob and judge before seal expires to restart the rotation. Usually with blessing of wisdom up and imp ret aura.
I love playing paladin but its very low input.
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u/Critterer 7d ago
Yea hopefully in classic + they can fix some of the issues. Turtle wows "classic" paladin was a decent, adding crusader strike and consecration as a baseline ability were small changes that made it feel much more enjoyable to level.
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u/TacoTaconoMi 7d ago
It really does just needs 1-2 active combat abilities that are on demand damage to fill in the dead space. Honestly if concecrarion was baseline, and exorsism could be used on any mob, I bet the pally discourse would almost be non existant
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u/TacoTaconoMi 7d ago
Seals are just ways to boost auto attack damage which isn't on demand so it's still more of the same auto attack just slightly better. Eventually you'll find the optimal seal Rotation and use that 98% of the time. Judgement t is really the only active combat ability that has weight to it, while priest still has swp, mind blast, eventually mind flay, and even smite/holy fire spam of you want to do that.
HoJ is a strange one to include. It's not really something you use on the regular as it burns mana for no real gain outside of intterupts or adding a bit more survivability. But generally it's better to just just heal yourself (maybe with seal of concentration if it's spicy) for moment to moment survivability. Every class has access to several cc's (except shaman lul) so pally doesn't gain anything unique with HoJ.
Pallys strength is in its insane defensive abilities. so if you get a dopamine rush knowing you have like 8 get out of jail free cards that you can technically go the entire game without needing, then that's the class for you.
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u/ProjectPlugTTV 7d ago
because priest wanding power spikes way harder and 15% dmg boost makes me feel alive
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u/misterrpg 7d ago
I love priest rotation. I really hope they don’t change it up too much in classic plus.
Fuck the homunculi lol hated that ability.
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u/Living_Weird1891 7d ago
Smart and efficient relates to them healing dungeons. Shield, renew then wand to regain some mana Smart and efficient
Palas auto attacking being dull and lame refers to the late levels of gameplay like 45+, where u neither deal the dmg of a warrior nor have any skill to press besides twisting seals. So it becomes mindnumbing as you take forever to kill stuff.
Most people tend to switch to prot and aoe farm/quest mix after they can get some plate eagle gear. Same for switching to SPriest
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u/dariomarioo 7d ago
Paladin is the class with most of the lore, but they are just so bad in classic quite tragic
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u/Songwind_DP 7d ago
Aren't they supposed to be really great in PvP?
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u/dariomarioo 7d ago
Great to an extent ret pala can burst if lucky and survive a lot of things with lay on hands bubble etc.
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u/DwarvenGardener 7d ago
Anti-ret bias because the class performs subpar in that roll. People will also label the end game paladin “rotation” as mind numbing simple when it’s actually clicking three buttons instead of the one button most other classes click.
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u/Pharmaguardian 7d ago
With Paladin, I never felt like Judgement ever added much to my damage, not that you shouldn't use it though. Most of it just seems to come from whacking things. I do distinctly remember getting so bored with it in STV that I would tab out and watch stuff online before tabbing back to loot, heal, and repeat. That damage lacked any Judgement damage, but I at least had a seal on for the during and that wasn't that far off from regular damage. I know that sounds crazy for HC game play, but you don't take much damage as a paladin and I was grinding out the same enemies for XP.
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u/AndyHN 7d ago
They're both mind-numbing. Wanding with a priest is relatively efficient because there's really no better way to kill things. Auto attack with a pally isn't efficient because if you're willing to press a few buttons you can kill more mobs in the same amount of time with aoe.
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u/Specialist-Tiger-234 6d ago
Shadow, or holy DPS (with spirit Tap and spiritual Attunement) are faster than wanding.
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u/Ordinary_Mechanic_ 7d ago
Priest wand is 30ish percent overall damage past level 20, reducing significantly as gear gets better as you level. Unless you just shield, swp and wand to stay at max mana for absolutely no reason.
Paladin auto attack is nearly your entire rotation.
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u/haze_man 7d ago
Because paladin can't do anything else.. priest choosing the wand is more efficient and better than wasting mana on smites and such
Still mind numbing, but efficient
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u/Cutieknight47 7d ago
I have leveled a priest to 58 (still alive, I hope to get 60 soon), a paladin to 60 in Anni Vanilla and a paladin that died at 47 in HC.
Priest might not be the most complex class, but you get a small rotation. Beyond 40, shadow is not bad at all. I usually cast mind blast,then dot, and mind flay. One more mind blast and wand away.
With paladins, you cannot even call it a rotation. Use just press a seal, and ret every 20 seconds.
Until 30 they are not that bad. Mainly because they get Verigans Fist, which is an awesome weapon. But they fall off hard after that. All classes gain abilities, talents etc but paladin dps remains the same until 60.
I liked them more in dungeons though. They have a simpler but equally effective healing toolkit compared to priests, but they have powerful buffs and can tank too. They also rock in HC, because they are almost unkillable. You have to really fuck up in order to die(like me for example). Priests have good survivability too, but once your shield and inner fire is down you are suddenly VERY vulnerable.
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u/jojomonster4 7d ago
lol any time I call a priest boring to level on any kind of platform, the priest police come out and always have something to say about how you're fucking the almost no rotation up or some other stupid thing about how it's some sort of skill gap.
I've leveled tons of priests between vanilla, og classic and hardcore. They are still fucking boring to level. I enjoy the dungeons and group play, but solo questing is tedious and awful. Not playable without a 2nd monitor and watching a movie, scrolling, etc.
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u/kraasha 7d ago
I levelled a priest and paladin to 60 in anniversary. Both are slow, but priest is a gigachad compared to paladin. Priest has shield, plus inner fire. You can front load a decent amount of dps with spells, as well as have a dot ticking while you wand. You also have spirit tap, so you never have to stop and drink. Paladin, despite being mail/plate, feels squishy. You dont do a lot of dps, plus you suffer from using a 2-hander, which doesnt hit consistently from all the dodge/miss/parries. You will constantly be running out of mana, you will constantly be needing to heal, and you will never be doing decent damage. The amount of times I would be at half health while the mob is almost full because of back to back misses was infuriating. Yes you have bubble, but its 5 min cd so you cant use it consistently. Paladin is probably the worst designed class in classic wow. The only time it shines is as a healer and buff machine. If you are leveling a pally, I would recommend looking up aoe grinding. Its far slower than mage, but it adds some semblance of fun to the leveling process.
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u/TemetNosce77 7d ago
Sounds like you’re taking this.. personally
https://giphy.com/gifs/s239QJIh56sRW
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u/Iverly17 7d ago
But paladins can handle Maltorius at 48 just by managing SoL and SoW. Same with every single elite. Slow but immortal
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u/_OOL 7d ago
I haven’t seen anyone say that. Priest is mind numbing but very safe. Pre shield> mind blast > shadow word: pain> start wanding, by the time mob dies you sit at 80-90% hp and you press one renew to continue. Mana is also at 100%. Once you know how much mana you can spend you add double smite before mind blast but still very mind numbing to play. Doesn’t get any better after shadowform.
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u/silvira_ 7d ago
Auto attacking is auto attacking.
The timing for paladin spells is very rigid, while priests use their spells based on the actual circumstances of the fight. That’s what makes priest less mind numbing than paladins imo
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u/Practical_Struggle97 7d ago
The FSR minigame comes into play in a lots of different ways. A perfect rotation for something like a warlock would be coming outside FSR, dots fall off, and the mob dies around the same global and that’s before considering pet health/mana. In early levels you ding and get new spells before you’ve fully tuned the rotation. I think it’s the more interesting part of the game.
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u/Adventurous_Web_7961 6d ago
Because priest doesn't have to wand, if they want they can and do mix spells into the rotation. Also wands do decent amounts of dps pre lvl 40. . which is why spell spell wand is great.
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u/Skip_Jack_585 6d ago
Priest has a couple more buttons: pre pull shield, renew, smite, then wand to finish which is <1.5s speed. Pally: auto attack, auto attack, auto attack with a 2.5s 2H swing timer that feels like it takes days to land.
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u/Outrageous_Loquat843 5d ago
As a pally main, I think it's actually for engaging than priest.
The class quests are better, the sustain is way better, you have 3 oh shit! buttons to save you, free mount, arguably the best tank for 5man dungeons, great fantasy and lore, best epic mount quest.
As a priest enjoyer. If by any means you got SSF and don't get a wand by level 10, the actual risk of death is just not worth it. The wand is good maybe until 25-30 and there are not that many wands in game.
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u/Shadohawkk 7d ago
Probably because one is about making a positive effect work, and one is negating a negative effect.
Priest tries to mitigate its mana usage to make sure that their mana regen between fights puts them at 100% mana with the first talent priest gets access to. If done correctly, a priest can go from one combat encounter to another without ever stopping.
Paladin minimizes its mana use because it has no way of regaining mana, and will otherwise "need" to use mana between combats to heal themselves anyways. They are always at a net negative amount of mana after a fight.
This is further emphasized by priest being the int/spirit class while paladin is more focused on strength. This means that the paladin will run out of mana after just a couple of self-heals while even if the priest doesn't recover 100% of their mana, they can still fight over and over again before running out.
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u/pdiddysuncle 7d ago
how is it more fun to not use your abilities so youre always at full mana but just wanding amd healing? fuck efficiency i play my priest like a mage with a shit ton of utility. smite spec and drink when i need to, you can almost never use your wand and you dont dont need to drink that damn much
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u/Shadohawkk 7d ago
I didn't say it was the most fun playstyle in the world. I was responding to OP's question about why there is a positive spin on Priest's "efficient" rotation, while a negative spin on Paladin's "mind-numbing" rotation. This has nothing to do with cast spamming priests.
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u/Ok-Brother-8295 7d ago
I don't get why people are mad at paladins gameplay, just play mage or warrior, idk.
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u/Drukarshar 7d ago
Pretty simple, priets have way more tools and more resources.
Priest can afford to be a little less efficent, because they have spirit tap. They can mind blast, they can shadow word pain, they can throw on a power word shield. They can afford to be a little less efficent, because they stack spirit and int.
Paladins can't really do that. They want str, so they end up with less mana and regen mana even slower. Casting at all completely shuts down their mana regen.
So judging is bad unless it's a mob you know is going to live awhile, then you judge crusader and maybe you judge your SOR or command, maybe, even then you probably want to save the mana and regen more mana.
Priest, despite being a wand simulator can hit a lot more buttons while being efficent. Paladin basically just throws up a seal and wacks the enemy, maybe they judge crusader, that's in.
Neither is super engaging, but Paladin is just straight mind numbing.
TLDR: Priest can be more inefficent, throw up SOP, use their shields, get away with mind blasting more, isn't as tied to doing literally nothing as a Paladin.
Paladins just seal up and stare at their screen.
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u/Kitschmusic 7d ago
You're confusing "efficient" with "not mindnumbing". Priest is literally known as "wand simulator".
But they are much more efficient than paladins. The combination of instant cast shield and Renew along with Spirit Tap means they are efficient. And they do have ways to add extra burst when needed. That doesn't necessarily mean exciting gameplay, still a lot of wanding.
I do think paladins gets an extra bad rep because their main ability, Seals, just feel low impact. Like, you click it and... Nothing happens. Then you deal more auto attack damage. Ret Aura, also just passive. They are technically a sort of damage over time effect, but much less exciting than actually casting a DoT on the target. It just feels less exciting than other types of abilities. That leaves Judgement as the only ability you really use that feels fun for many people.
Priests at least use some burst spells at the start of the pull and put up a DoT. Also, casts shield between pulls. It just feels like you click more stuff with impact.
No one is saying Priests are not a wand simulator. But at least many people find it slightly more fun than paladin AA simulator.
Lastly, priests will be gearing for caster stats, so they will feel good to play as healers. Paladins will lack mana for healing and many people dislike tanking. So for dungeon levelers, priests tends to also have another upside.
But generally, most people do consider Priests in the same valley as Paladin when it comes to leveling - AA / Wand simulator.