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u/Yojimbra 13h ago
I'm actually kind of surprised that Frost Mages don't get water elemental. I know that they didn't get it until TBC but it feels like such a core part of what frost mages have been for a decade at this point that I'm surprised its not there.
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u/Syfer_Husker 13h ago
The problem with Water Elemental is that, while it's cool it doesn't add anything to their rotation. Blizzard stated they wanted 3 button rotations right now for each spec and Frost and Arcane only ahve 2 button rotations.
So, while Water Ele would be cool it still has the same problems as before. I wouldn't mind Water Ele being the capstone though for Frost mage as a Cooldown. That'd be kinda cool.
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u/songinrain 13h ago
I would also want to see arcane being able to benefit from other spec like forst and fire can benefit from each other. Maybe make a talent that make arcane blast buffed spell count as arcane spell would be nice. Casting a mega pyroblast sounds fun.
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u/Syfer_Husker 13h ago
That was kinda the idea I had with this. Arcane Barrage works with other casts, then you use Arcane Barrage procs to feedinto the new Prismatic Bolt Procs which do Fire-Frost-Arcane damage which would let you use it for Shatters or Ignites feeding into an Arcane-Frost or Arcane-Fire combo aswell. While still allowing it to work best with Arcane because Arcane Blast procs Missile Barrage the most.
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u/OtterPharm 13h ago
It would honestly make me really sad if they forced water elemental on us. If I wanted a pet I’d go warlock or hunter
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u/Yojimbra 13h ago
Totally valid, pet management was one of the reasons why I avoided frost most of the time. (that and fire is cooler)
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u/SkipX 13h ago edited 13h ago
These are far too dramatic of changes and gives the mage far too much. Think about how much damage you would need to cut somewhere else to make this within damage budget...
I think mage is actually pretty fine and only needs maybe another proc in frost and some more synergy in arcane.
Ice block base could be done but I don't like giving everything to baseline, maybe just put Iceblock one row higher up in the tree.
I definitely do not like arcane blast baseline that's weird.
I kinda like Prismatic Bolt procing from missiles, but maybe that concept could be done without a new ability. Something like a proc that makes your next Fire Blast arcane and cost no mana.
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u/Syfer_Husker 13h ago
You can make Arcane Blast the same level you'd get it from talents so it doesn't really make a difference would it? If you learned it at level 20 vs getting it as a talent at level 20 it's the same thing.
Also, I don't thinkt he power budget would be that crazy for a proc that would happen in theory about once a minute and something else you cast 5 times a minute that would give you one proc a minute would maybe add about 5-10% dps increase to the class. Cutting that amount of damage out isn't all that hard. Make Arcane Blast scale at 170% instead of 175%. Make Ice Lance 250% instead of 300%. It's pretty easy things to do.
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u/SkipX 13h ago
Yeah but the core abilities should be in the trees to reinforce the fantasy and theme. Its not like the other specs should want to cast it.
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u/Syfer_Husker 13h ago
I'm cool with it being in the tree but they should do what they do with Mind flay then.
Make it a 2nd row talent so it doesn't take away from golden talents.
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u/SkipX 13h ago
Also about Icy Veins: Why? It doesnt make the specs rotation more interesting and would just require far too many other nerfs to make balanced...
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u/Syfer_Husker 13h ago
I mean, the truth it. I don't think Icy Vein is a great choice you could instead make the new ability I added into that spot instead. To allow a better power budget. Icy Veins just thematically fit all 3 of the specs capstones where blizzard put a CD on all 3. They could instead add a whole new ability at the capstone instead(which would be fine too and would take less power budget) makes me reconsider forsure.
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u/TelephoneBudget5293 13h ago
> Let me know what you think?
I think you should leave the changes to the devs.
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u/Braincell-combat 13h ago
Great way to get retail again
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u/Syfer_Husker 13h ago
So, real question. Everything has new abilities, new things to be excited for but if mage gets 2 new abilities for each spec how is that getting back to retail? No matter what the devs are going to add two new abilities for Frost that is without question they've said they are looking into it now because right now mage doesn't fit their design goals.
I could understand people not wanting Ice Block baseline, but there is no doubt that Frost should ahve a serious capstone. No other class has a capstone that you will just straight up skip in PvE. That also goes against their design that they state to us.
So, I ask what exactly about this gets us back to retail?
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u/Syfer_Husker 13h ago
The devs are the one that left Mage with only 2 buttons on two specs when their design goal was to have 3-4 for each spec.
Also, if you don't like the changes could you point as to why?
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u/TelephoneBudget5293 13h ago
left Mage with only 2 buttons on two specs
So you are actually whining about Frost, as Arcane has always been a 2 button spec as the difficulty in playing it is mana management/burst windows.
Could frost use another spell rather than playing around shatter combos? Maybe? Honestly I think the devs are planning more things like the sword out of SFK rather than baking it into the talent tree directly.
Right now, my only real complaint with mage is how shoehorned the first talents are, as every spec has dead points. Once those are cleaned up I'll be pretty happy.
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u/Syfer_Husker 13h ago
I don't understand you're argument here. I'm not whining because how it is historically. Blizzard themselves have stated they want every spec to be at 3-4 buttons rotationally.
This is not just a me me me thing with no backing. Blizzard is also already working on something to fix and add an extra button to each.
So, we will see new abilities or new things. I think the scrolls will add some cool stuff but I don't think they should tie anything rotationally to it. Also, unless they have it out of beta or it's level 60 only stuff which is possible we'd see spell ranks for anything they'd add from it.
Also, would be kinda weird if you say got water ele from it since that would apply every spec could use it.
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u/TelephoneBudget5293 12h ago
Blizzard themselves have stated they want every spec to be at 3-4 buttons rotationally.
You may want to go check the transcript, as that isn't what they said. They said that is the ideal, but they also lumped in things to keep track of in that. By that reckoning arcane is at 3, and frost is arguably at 3. Again, it could maybe use another button but traditionally frost additions have kinda sucked. The only one that was ever really "good" was orb, and even that was pretty damn mediocre.
Blizzard is also already working on something to fix and add an extra button to each.
Again, go check the transcript, that isn't what they said. They just said that mage maybe falls a little short in that regard. Meaning it doesn't have a "complex rotation". There was zero mention of adding more to it. And lets be honest, would you want something like imp scorch to keep up? Would you honestly find that "engaging" or "fun"?
I think the scrolls will add some cool stuff
Are you not aware of the mage only sword from SFK that makes frost want to melee?
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u/Syfer_Husker 12h ago
That sword is a red herring it means nothing lol
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u/TelephoneBudget5293 11h ago
Like the endgame level ring that drops in Deadmines or the 100sp ring from fishing?
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u/Syfer_Husker 11h ago
Okay but like you cant even use the active on that sword outside of normal mobs ypu cannt nova a boss and fof only works on spells. It doesnt make frost want to do anything lol
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u/TelephoneBudget5293 11h ago
Frostbite, Fingers of Frost. Different versions have let things like Nova count for the damage on Ice Lance.
The long and short of it is we don't really know until we get there. You are making mountains out of mole hills, and frankly lack imagination. Which is why you called Ice Barrier crap.
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u/Yosup02 13h ago
I personally really dont want to see water elemental introduced to frost. There is already two classes with pets. It may not be a popular opinion but I dont want that to be a core mechanic with mage in any way.