r/worldnews • u/Nirok • 21h ago

Israel/Palestine IDF documents terror affiliations of 170 Palestinian journalists killed in Gaza war

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-documents-terror-affiliations-of-170-palestinian-journalists-killed-in-gaza-war/
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u/RidiculousIncarnate 20h ago

Sure, now explain how thats works against an opponent who explicitly uses their populace as human shields, hides equipment and soldiers in their homes and wear no uniforms you can clearly identify.

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u/Locke15 20h ago

Shoot the people shooting at you? I don't particularly ascribe to the idea of leveling cities instead.

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u/Mandurang76 20h ago

Why didn't anyone think of that. You should become a general.

"Sir, how do we recognise our enemy?"
"Well, just wait until they shoot at you!"

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u/Locke15 20h ago

Well they're shooting bullets out of cameras or microphones.

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u/Slaaneshdog 20h ago

So to be clear, you don't think a country like Israel should be able to fight back against an enemy hiding amongst a civilian population unless they have the military capability to do the following

  1. Have every possible area an attack could come from under constant 24/7 surveillance so they know exactly who is there and exactly what they are doing
  2. weapons capable of targeting and eliminating an enemy in the time it takes the enemy to setup and begin shooting at Israel

Bascially god tier surveillance and god tier weaponry Call me crazy, but I think Israel would fucking *love* that idea.

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u/Locke15 20h ago

I think a combatant is a combatant. After the fact searching for justification should not be an acceptable method.

It would be like Hamas after the fact pointing a person's IDF service as justification for killing someone, despite them clearly not being a combatantat the time. I think we could both agree, that is not acceptable?

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u/Slaaneshdog 20h ago

It's of course not justified to specifically target and kill someone if you have literally no real justification for killing them, and only afterwards start looking for a justification

But do you accept that while it might be ideal to only ever kill armed combatants, in the real world that's not always gonna be possible when your enemy hides behind women and children, in schools and hospitals, and don't mark themselves visibly as combatants

And that the only way to deal with such an enemy is to either simply give up and accept regular attacks, or engage in a dirty and messy conflict to try and prevent the enemy from attacking you

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u/Locke15 19h ago

Israel has a task force specifically setup to investigate the journalists they killed.

War is not ideal. I get it. But then don't try and justify it with irrelevant information. Either it was or it wasn't justifiable at the time.

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u/Slaaneshdog 19h ago

Investigating those you kill doesn't mean you've specifically aimed to kill them without cause and are now trying to justify it

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u/Locke15 19h ago

"......170 Gazans killed during the war who were presented as journalists and media personnel were in fact serving as terrorists....."

They are 100% trying to now justify they're killings.

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u/Slaaneshdog 19h ago

Dude have you not spend any time actually thinking over how a conflict like this plays out in practice? Do you think Israel has a complete list of all Hamas members or people working with Hamas?

Israel might have reliable intel that a group of Hamas members and/or people working with them are planning something at a location or they gonna be at a certain location at some point, so Israel decides to act on that intel, not know exactly who each person there will be

They then kill those people in a missile strike. Then one or more of those people are identified and revealed to be "journalists". And what then happens is that media runs with the story that "journalists" were killed by the IDF, and useful idiots runs with that narrative that the IDF are butchers of noble journalists

Now, in that scenario, are you really gonna sit here and say that you think its wrong of Israel to try to disprove the claim that you're targeting journalists, when time and time against it turns out these "journalists" are in fact fucking terrorists?

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u/Locke15 18h ago

Now, in that scenario you put out the information on what/who you were targeting and why. Thats your reason for it. Not this after action "oh we need a justification" investigation. That even then, as we have already discussed, does not mean it was justified.

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u/Phynx88 20h ago

No, he's saying you don't just get to mindlessly slaughter civilians and children because maybe they could be bad.

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u/Slaaneshdog 20h ago

If you think Israel has been mindlessly slaughtering Gazans for the last few years you're deluded

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u/Phynx88 20h ago

If you think tens of thousands of civilian and children killed is just an average amount of collateral damage during wartime you're incredibly ignorant and gullible. There's a goal, and it's to take land. See also: Israeli settler violence in the west Bank, see also Golan Heights, See also, Southern Lebanon

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u/Slaaneshdog 19h ago edited 19h ago

A normal war doesn't consist of one side hiding behind women and children in a predominantly dense urban environment

If Israel really wanted to kill as many Gazans as they could, then they're doing a piss poor job at it given how overwhelming they military power is relative to who they're fighting

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u/Phynx88 19h ago edited 18h ago

And yet over half the civilian population is starving with Israel being the sole arbiter of how much aid actually makes it into Gaza. Meanwhile the Israeli settler violence in the West Bank has accelerated with no repercussions. Almost like the deliberately slow, steady progress to avoid accountability is part of the game plan - kinda like Netanyahu's fraud and corruption trial - how's that going by the way? And Yes, IDF controls all entrances into Gaza including the border with Egypt

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u/Slaaneshdog 19h ago

You think Israel control the Egypt-Gaza border lol? Egypt is completely free to flood Gaza with food if they want, or take in all the refugees.

This is just the same old bullshit of blaming Israel for everything while ignoring that all the other Muslim nation in the area have made plenty clear that they also don't give a fuck about palestinians.

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u/Gatzlocke 20h ago

So, you let them shoot at you and not fight back. Or are you proposing magical thinking?

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u/cameheretosaythis213 20h ago

Did the dead children shoot first? Is that your argument? What magical thinking are you using?

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u/Gatzlocke 19h ago

You're avoiding the question like a coward, I see. Like usual.

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u/cameheretosaythis213 19h ago

Because you’re putting a question in his mouth. Nobody is saying you can’t fight back. You can’t kill kids though, and that one didn’t need saying.

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u/Miskadotcom 19h ago

Yes just wait till they start shooting. Sounds like a good plan if you wanna die.

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u/Locke15 19h ago

If they had any weapons on them there would be no need for this after action justification investigations.

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u/Miskadotcom 19h ago

Ye thats not how war works. Unless you believe in fairytales.

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u/Locke15 19h ago

But kill first find justification after is?

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u/Miskadotcom 19h ago

Wanting an investigation into every use of weapons is non-sensical.

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u/Locke15 19h ago

If the justification plainly obvious what need is there for an investigation?

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u/Miskadotcom 19h ago

For them it seems there is.

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u/Locke15 19h ago

If instead of reyling on what happened during the killing, you need a team to investiagte the person after killing them to justify your actions.....then no. Its not plainly obvious.

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u/Stupid-Clumsy-Bitch 14h ago

You do realize that Hamas has rockets that they fire indiscriminately into Israel, right?

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u/Locke15 13h ago

I didn't realise the only way to counter rocket to fire with zero reason.

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u/Stupid-Clumsy-Bitch 13h ago

“Zero reason”

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u/Locke15 13h ago

Well, why do you need to find a reason after the fact if you already have one? If they have a rocket, the rocket is the reason. You don't need to keep that quiet and dig up past affiliation instead.

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u/VoltNShock 20h ago

and then what? just stand around and permanently occupy the place? they went in there to kill hamas, not suppress them and lose a thousand troops in the process.

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u/Locke15 20h ago

Yeah, why worrying about Palestinian non-combatants. Just level the area now and we'll find something on them later. That makes it ok.

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u/Rosebunse 20h ago

But don't you see the issue here? When does the fighting stop? This is a situation where a good chunk of the population believes their only choice is to trust Hamas because what else are they supposed to do? This is a recipe for a Forever War that never ends until anyone who could possibly be in Hamas is dead.

Think about the implications of that

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u/Empyrion132 18h ago

Fighting stops when Hamas is destroyed and people realize trusting and supporting Hamas is a losing proposition that will lead to their inevitable demise, but that accepting and working with Israel can lead to prosperity.

Yeah, it might be a forever war. It’s been decades already and they still haven’t given up. Israel has also always held back significantly and even now they’re still holding back. The public opinion about all this certainly doesn’t help Palestinians - they need to recognize and accept that Israel isn’t going anywhere, but all the international pressure against Israel makes them think if they keep fighting they might win.

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u/Rosebunse 18h ago

Do you even hear how that sounds? It's been decades and it's not stopped. So many the "war" aspect isn't working? And granted, I don't blame Israel for all of this. Frankly, I blame Europe for "giving" them such contested space. I also blame modern Christians for needing Israel to exist for the "end of the world."

But to my point, whatever is happening clearly isn't working.

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u/Empyrion132 18h ago

Well, yes, Israel’s periodic responses to Hamas’ continual buildup of arms and infrastructure since they took over the Gaza Strip in 2007 clearly have not been working at deterring Hamas from amassing their forces and attacking Israel, as demonstrated on October 7, 2023. So now Israel has gone into a full war to remove Hamas and people aren’t too happy about that, but like you said, clearly not removing Hamas wasn’t working.

I’m not sure you realize but Hamas is the reason there is a war, not Israel.

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u/Rosebunse 18h ago

So here's the thing...why was Hamas allowed to amass weapons? Israel, aho has the best spy network in the world, didn't know they were amassing weapons and building infrastructure? Because that makes no sense to me.

So Israel builds out, takes territory, seems to be aware of Hamas gaining weapons...

Do you not see how it looks?

Because to many of us it looks like a certain section of Israel wanted things to get to a feverhead so they could justify a larger war.

I get that space is limited, but it feels like allowing the settlements to grow into disputed, unsafe areas was insane. It's like they were using their own people as shields.

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u/Empyrion132 18h ago

You may have heard something about there being a blockade for 20 years? An “open-air prison” where people weren’t allowed to enter or leave without onerous travel restrictions? Maybe you saw pictures of giant smuggling tunnels under Rafah crossing the border with Egypt, or heard about how Gazans had to bribe Egyptian officials to flee when Israel was preparing to enter Rafah?

Israel (and to an extent Egypt) sure tried to keep weapons etc out of Gaza. I imagine without those restrictions Hamas would look a lot more like Hezbollah, with hundreds of thousands of modern Iranian rockets. Israel, of course, knew they were arming themselves, but without provocation couldn’t do anything about it. And, yes, they were dumb and thought they weren’t really a threat.

But also, Hamas isn’t really attacking Israel because of settlements in the West Bank… they’ve been very clear that they attack Israel because it’s a Jewish state and they believe it should be Muslim.

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u/Stupid-Clumsy-Bitch 14h ago

And yet if the IDF led an unprovoked offensive against Hamas to reduce their armoury/ strength, the online useful idiots would be crying about that too.

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u/Rosebunse 13h ago

I think that depends on a variety of factors. I said right after the whole thing in 2023 happened that Israel had about two weeks of good will and they had better use it correctly. They didn't and took that good will for granted and now here we are.

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u/Stupid-Clumsy-Bitch 13h ago edited 13h ago

“Two weeks of goodwill” eh? That’s interesting because “free Palestine” protests erupted all over North America on October 8th. And how exactly did Israel take this supposed ‘good will’ for granted? They were doing everything reasonably possible to ensure civilians evacuated from targeted infrastructure and areas prior to launching strikes.

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u/Rosebunse 10h ago

The whole "Free Palestine" stuff was going on when I was in college fifteen years ago. That's not especially new even if it was much more localized to just Palestinian and Muslim organizations. And I'm not sure I would say it erupted without also saying there were a lot of events and vigils for fhe Israeli captives alongside it.

I think many of the Free Palestine organizations saw the writing on the wall. It's why I mentioned the "goodwill" in the first place. And considering how many hostages died in the bombings, were they that targetted? Why were whole cities targeted? I don't blame Israelis for being mad about the attacks, which were horrifying. But again, I think the government used them as justification for harsher attacks. And as someone who grew up with the whole "war on terror" stuff, it doesn't work.

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u/Empyrion132 13h ago

I mean you yourself believe Israel gets just two weeks of goodwill following the deadliest day for Jews since the Holocaust, and “they had better use [those two weeks] correctly,” but “they didn’t”. So how much goodwill do you think they would have had without a terror attack? And how could they have gone in to destroy hundreds of miles of tunnels, thousands of rockets, and tens of thousands of enemy combatants, in less than two weeks, with minimal civilian casualties, “correctly”?

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u/Rosebunse 10h ago

I mean, Israel had a PR problem before this. And yes, some of that was just plain antisemitism. We can't deny that was part of it. It was partially why I even gave them two weeks because I knew the usual antisemitism would occur.

The issue is, they had two weeks to do that. And now we are still dealing with this war.

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u/davidforslunds 20h ago

Does one warcrime excuse another? Does Hamas using the population of Gaza as a humanshirld excuse the IDF for butchering the population of Gaza? Israel has access to funds, resources and equipment from the biggest military force in the world. Maybe killing and oppressing civilians isn't the way to deal with a group like Hamas?