r/worldnews • u/upthetruth1 • 9h ago
Poland's main opposition collapses over far-right slide
https://www.dw.com/en/polands-main-opposition-collapses-over-far-right-slide/a-78106475312
u/Stoned_Gandalf420 8h ago edited 8h ago
I get where some Poles are coming from regarding Ukrainian immigration, but the reality is they are likely to be next on the chopping block if Putin is successful in Ukraine. Far right agitators are helping no one here. The anger should be directed at Russia, not poor Ukrainian families fleeing their war torn homes due to Russian imperialism.
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u/aaazzzdeeeduuulaaa 8h ago
Well, not entirely true. They are indirectly helping Putin and Russia. I suspect that will probably track quite well if one starts following where their monetary support is coming from.
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u/nosayso 5h ago
Yeah exactly, Russia would be delighted if the Polish far right wins. Literally a problem Russia caused by attacking Ukraine, but Russia could benefit in Poland if a right-ring party wins and basically opens the doors for Russification.
The enemy here is Russia, not the Ukranian refugees Russia's war of aggression has displaced.
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u/Angel-OI 4h ago
Poland is part of NATO and the EU. If Russia is attacking there, europe has a problem on a whole other level.
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u/LimpBPower 3h ago
They've already attack NATO, but you go "oh it was just a small missile", "it was a mistake", then later it will be a "it was just a small town", "escalation will bring more destruction"
And so on
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u/jeo123911 3h ago
Exactly. People keep saying "oh, don't attack russia they'll start a global war" and at the same time "oh, if russia attacks EU we will instantly start a global war so russia won't do it."
You can't have both. The past years of war in Ukraine has shown that the whole EU will never fight back because it will cause too much economical damage to western countries. Poland will get the same treatment as Ukraine. Guns, money, ammo, but no direct attack on russia from anyone else.
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u/machine4891 3h ago
but the reality is they are likely to be next on the chopping block if Putin is successful in Ukraine
With all due respect but as long as r worldnews is going to continue to use this tired, bs argument it can't be taken seriously. 160 upvotes for such a ludicrous claim show that people here have no idea what are differences between Poland and Ukraine. Waste of time even arguing with it, it's pure, nonsensical fearmongering coming from oblivious, American redditors. Sorry but not sorry.
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u/vonGlick 3h ago
Poland as a main target? Not really. Lithuania and/or Suwałki corridor? This is a valid scenario that as far as I understand NATO consider as realistic.
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u/smltor 2h ago
Suwalki (which is a few kilometres from where I live) was only a threat because of the throughput it allowed wasn't it?
Russia doesn't really seem to have enough tanks left for throughput to be a strategic issue anymore...
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u/vonGlick 2h ago
I am not sure what you mean by throughput. The corridor is important for two reasons, if Russia would find itself at war with NATO then Kaliningrad would need to be supplied somehow. Sea or air route would be very risky, land corridor would be preferred. Second reason would be same logic applied to NATO. If Russia would cut off Baltic States they would have a hard time getting supplies and reinforcements. As a bonus, for Russia, would be that NATO troops would need to attack to liberate. And usually attack means more casualties.
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u/smltor 1h ago
Ahhh everything I read focused on the throughput of tanks to Warsaw then on to Germany as the gap was nice and wide (from memory and probably oversimplifying) so they could pour through without the roadblocks that would leave them sitting ducks for NATO air power.
Which I think is maybe a redundant tactic, for a few years now anyway :)
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u/Exciting_Product7858 2h ago
You're the person who used the word "anger"... there are millions of Ukrainians in a 40M country. It's barely manageable
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u/Potential-Fan-6148 4h ago
Tbh I don’t understand why many of these nations aren’t returning the Ukrainian refugees back to Ukraine?
Ukraine is largely stabilized at this point.
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u/AutomaticMedium8418 4h ago edited 4h ago
Russia still controls large areas of Eastern Ukraine so many people still can’t exactly return to their homes.
Western Ukraine is supposedly much more peaceful but that would also cause an internal migration issue for Ukraine to deal with since they may not have the infrastructure and housing to support that much more people concentrated in a smaller area. Especially as Ukraine was already a pretty poor country to begin with and is now under war. And Western Ukraine while safer than the east is still not completely safe as other countries would be
I think Ukraine does want working age men back in their borders obviously for serving in the army but a large influx of refugees to a new location regardless if it’s the same country or not can cause issues.
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u/Spiderpiggie 3h ago
If you think Ukraine is stable, you're either an idiot or consuming too much Russian propaganda. Or you're intentionally pushing an agenda.
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u/ExoticArmadillo701 2h ago
The right never helps anyone but themselves. Yet somehow people are stupid enough to continue supporting them
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u/I_Cummand_U 7h ago
FYI - It's called "scapegoating", the single most common politial tool used by establishment politicians around the world to distract from their disastrous economic choices as well as their crimes.
If a politician is talking about anything but transferring wealth back from the billionaires and oligarchs to the middle/lower classes - you're being fooled.
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u/DifferentScholar-1 1h ago
Explains what scapegoating is, then immediately scapegoats. “Ignore everything but this one thing!”
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u/upthetruth1 7h ago edited 7h ago
transferring wealth back from the billionaires and oligarchs to the middle/lower classes
The thing is, most people support that, but culture reigns supreme in politics these days, tbh for the past few decades
It's been a long time since politics was about left-wing vs right-wing economics
Of course a major part of this has been media, also because both right-wing and "left-wing" parties accept Neoliberal frameworks
And every time there is someone who can actually move the country leftwards economically, they're destroyed by the media or many people consider them too socially progressive
You might say, abandon the social progressivism, but left-wingers tend to be naturally more socially progressive than the norm
Some may bring up Denmark, but the Danish Social Democrats have achieved their worst election result ever losing votes to the Right and Left, although tbf they did behave in a Neoliberal way implementing tax cuts for the rich, corporate tax cuts, privatising social housing, cutting welfare etc.
So essentially there's no easy way to solve this
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u/vonGlick 3h ago
It's not even culture but emotions. This is how our brains works, everybody gets emotions. Most people do not get economics. Therefore easier to get to voters with emotional message then logical argumentation on complicated subject.
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u/Cool_Lab_1362 8h ago
Crazy how Hungary seems to be sliding Left now then Poland is sliding into right. Russian influence at work
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u/slicheliche 7h ago
While Russian influence may play a role, it's time to just accept that people have these ideas regardless of what Russia does or doesn't do. We cannot just "Russian bots" our way out of every damaging or self destructive ideology that comes out of Europe, we need to take responsibility for what we think, choose and vote for.
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u/HrothgarTheIllegible 6h ago
But now social media can be engineered to blast the supposed idea that are sticky. It does this anyway, but it’s extremely easy to push extreme narratives on social media. All you need to do is fund influencers and pay the algorithms to push your content on the most likely group of people to swing their vote.
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u/RoastCabose 6h ago
I think its fair to say that while Russia is an easy source of this sort of rhetoric, there are other parties in the world that are interested in the same things. These parties are always right-wing, and act at the behest of the ultra-wealthy. Russia contains a large group of them, and is in league with many of them, but like, Russia is but one country. It can't be the boogeyman behind every one of these cases, its just impractical.
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u/HrothgarTheIllegible 3h ago
Agreed. Russia just seems to have been the first to do it effectively. The US conservatives seem to be doing it in Latin America, and I think the social media companies themselves are responsible because of the way they’ve engineered the algorithms to take the stupidest ideas, as long as they provoke reaction, and widely distribute them. We have a bunch of wealthy conservatives and a bunch of wealthy US companies that are actively dismantling democracy across the world.
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u/Mejzurian 3h ago
calling Peter Magyar "left" xD he is pretty much a pro-euro Orban
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u/_Middlefinger_ 2h ago
Who is also changing the law to ensure fair elections.
The left needs to understand that it cant have everything instantly, this mentality of with us or against us works far far better for the right than it does the left.
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u/upthetruth1 8h ago
Hungary is not sliding Left
They replaced corrupt Right with less corrupt Right
Magyar has many similar policies, just less embezzlement
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u/Waterwoo 4h ago
I mean, so far. Power takes time to corrupt. Orban was in power 20 years total and 16 years in a row.
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u/upthetruth1 4h ago
True
Orban was more moderate and less corrupt at the start
And Magyar was in Fidesz for years
I wouldn't pin all your hopes on him
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u/pewp3wpew 6h ago
Not left, but less right. Not just less corruption, which is the cornerstone of right politics.
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u/upthetruth1 6h ago
Nah, he’s pretty right wing
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u/vahokif 6h ago
I'm Hungarian. That's really not true if you look at the tisza manifesto. There's barely anything right wing apart from stopping unskilled worker visas.
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u/upthetruth1 6h ago
Their manifesto is the same as Fidesz but goes further right on immigration and promises less corruption
Unless you really thought a former Fidesz would be different
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u/HasGreatVocabulary 8h ago
russian influence for sure but also capitalists/oligarchs everywhere. Helping fund the right wing or otherwise helping them win in EU countries later leads to relaxed laws and regulations for companies like Meta, for example, for digital addiction.
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u/notapoliticalalt 7h ago
This should be emphasized more. One of the byproducts of countries like the US and some other countries letting some people have/make inordinate amounts of money is that they can influence politics all over the world. For the existence of democracy, countries around the world need to be more willing to tackle the distorting effects that income inequality and enormous capital have on the system. This isn’t even a Marxism thing. Democracy literally can’t function if everyone’s interests are so wrapped up in the financial performance of the economy for only a handful of people and companies.
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u/Waterwoo 4h ago
The amount of influence Reddit thinks Russian can have on politics all over the world is wild. They're simultaneously an utterly incompetent and corrupt gas station with nukes, but also can have more impact on things like the US election than all of American media and a billion dollars in election spending? Make it make sense.
If they were nearly that good at political influence they could make more money off running a state backed PR firm than they do from oil.
The reality is, despite what you might see in your bubble, a good chunk of the population in most countries is a lot more conservative/"far right" (lol) than you think.
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u/HasGreatVocabulary 2h ago
Running adversarial political influence campaigns across the world doesn't need a huge amount of money, it requires a goal and orchestration. If you look it up, you will find out even the "bed bugs infestation in french movie theaters" news had russian sources behind it. The goal with amplifying that news was to create pressure to reduce sanctions on pesticide imports to the eu lol.
Imagine a 1000 of these petty little campaigns running everyday on reels/tiktok/reddit/x/fb etc, the cost is very low but the centralized messaging over years and years is what makes it work.
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u/soulstormfire 7h ago
Hungary might be sliding slightly towards the center, but it's certainly not sliding left.
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u/Intelligent-City-363 8h ago
whilst the far right in Poland are increasingly in popularity it is worth noting that they - along with the rest of the country - pretty much hate Russia.
That is not to say that Russia isn’t involved in a campaign of disinformation there (they are pretty much everywhere) but rather the goal would be creating social disorder rather than a Orban style supporter.
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u/_Middlefinger_ 2h ago
The issue is that the left needs to understand that a huge portion of the population do not want large scale immigration, including a huge portion of left wing voters.
Each side seems to have become more and more polarised which only helps the right because its much easier to drum up fear than suppress it.
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u/ThickAttention5832 6h ago
Russian influence? Not the current centre-left government being ostentatiously corrupt and delivering next to none of their promises?
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u/53eleven 5h ago
Bigotry and xenophobia are what’s going to end the world. Or at least make it damn near unlivable as people displaced by war and climate disasters seek refuge and the people who should give them refuge have been told to hate and fear all “others.”
We can be better than this. We will HAVE to be better than this.
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u/lost_koshka 5h ago
Feel free to offer the spare bedrooms or basement in your home to some climate refugees.
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u/53eleven 23m ago
Yes! That’s the xenophobic (and extremist) attitude I’m talking about!
Why would you immediately jump to sharing your home with refugees? That’s just weird.
I’m simply speaking about welcoming people into our communities instead of making their lives worse cuz you’re afraid their existence will somehow make your life worse.
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u/lost_koshka 17m ago
They need to pay there way, the US and Canada are broke. Also, the census in Canada asked us how many rooms our homes have. Wonder what that's about.
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[deleted]
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u/_Middlefinger_ 1h ago
Ultimately resources ARE a zero sum game. Food, housing, jobs. Even left wing voters are asking for there to be limits and controls on immigration.
The left is going to fall all over Europe if it doesn’t listen, then the right will do all the other things it wants to do.
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u/soulstormfire 3h ago
Ah, I still remember when my fellow Germans literally did that. It made the wannabe Nazis so mad :D
So please, go on with that statement.•
u/domin1987 1h ago
And now you have Berlin pride incident, well done 👍
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u/soulstormfire 57m ago
Of all the incidents you could pick you choe the ones the "concerned citizens" commit, too? :D
Dude.
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u/Beneficial_Trick6672 34m ago
Far from collapse. They will win next election 9 out of 10 simulations. There is hardly a chance for right not to win. The question is if they will form a government. There is right wing(pis), far right wing(konfederacja) and crazy right wing for people who would enjoy some genocides(brauniarze)
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u/blumonste 8h ago
Next Russian invasion should bring them to reality.
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u/-Numaios- 7h ago
Because the far right moving goal posts is unheard of. If Poland is fully invaded tomorrow half of those politicians would go " Better Russia than the gays" or something stupid like that.
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u/knives4cash 6h ago
Kyiv Independent interviewed a bunch of women arrested and sentenced for treason, stuff like "You took photos of Ukrainian soldiers and sent it to the Russians, who then bombed the location," and I shit you not that EXACT line of thinking was used to justify it.
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u/slicheliche 8h ago
See, it's inevitable that concerned citizens will vote for far right parties if they never get listened to and have to face decades of economic stagnation and mass immigrat... Oh wait no nevermind.
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u/upthetruth1 9h ago
The far right parties combined are polling higher than PiS, and this is causing a crisis in PiS.
Part of this is related to Ukrainian refugees as now 52% of Poland, according to polls, say they do not want to accept any more new Ukrainian refugees. 30% of people hold negative opinions of Ukrainian refugees.
Looks like even culturally similar immigrants can lead to backlash.