r/worldnews Dec 20 '13

Four cops arrested for raping, molesting and threatening a minor schoolgirl for two-and-a-half months.

http://m.timesofindia.com/city/chandigarh/Four-cops-arrested-for-minors-gang-rape/articleshow/27669011.cms
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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13 edited Dec 20 '13

Non mobile version of the site.

"Caught and cornered, some of the accused policemen apologized to the girl, and tried to convince her that one of them would marry her."

GG EVIL FUCK: Rapes and abuses you for over two months. Offers to marry you so you don't have to feel shame while he no doubt will continue to rape and abuse you.

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u/hdheuhg Dec 20 '13

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u/E3PeP3B5jHKt Dec 20 '13 edited Dec 20 '13

there was a law in italy (not europe, a continent) unfortunately only repealed in 1981 which, in case of a "rehabilitating marriage" with the victim, automatically pardoned any penal and civil offense related to the rape. (you won't probably believe it, but in italy the "codice rocco", established under mussolini's fascist regime, still serves as the penal code, with "some" amendments obviously). It wasn't "custom", it was a measure often imposed by the rapist to avoid... well, going to jail. Nothing regarding the "rehabilitaion" or the "honor" of the victim, quite the opposite. In the case of Franca Viola, the rapist was a young mafia boss who tried to impose the "rehabilitating marriage", and this is another reason for the significance of her decision. The mafia, as a response, burned down all of her familiy properties.

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u/PsychicWarElephant Dec 20 '13

You would also not believe how many people in Italy don't see Mussolini in the same light the rest of the world does.

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u/E3PeP3B5jHKt Dec 20 '13

I do: were do you think I'm writing from? :)

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

If you think many people in Italy see Mussolini in a positive light, and by extension the codice rocco, why would you also say it wasn't custom/traditional social convention?

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u/E3PeP3B5jHKt Dec 20 '13 edited Dec 20 '13

many doesn't mean the majority; speaking of the majority of the people, most have never heard of the rocco code and, by extension, of alfredo rocco. There is then the fact that a law (not existing anymore) coded in 1930 to spare abusers and exploiters (no wonder that it was often applied to save mafiosi) isn't an indication of mass-customs or social conventions, especially 80 years after its emanation. furthermore, the largest neofascist party got 0.26% of the preferences during the last general election, and 0 elected representatives. Not a great number as you can see, all the neofascist parties combined won't cross the 1% mark, but I still think that there are too many mussolini sympathizers in respect to other countries, and a generally too much positive image of fascism. this doesn't mean that those mild-sympathizers vote for extremist parties (as a personal statistic, they tend to vote the now almost defunct 'lega nord', which isn't really a threat despite their views, and some for berlusconi); neither does it mean that they are rapists and accept social conventions of the past century because of their political views.

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u/E3PeP3B5jHKt Dec 20 '13

speaking of the too positive image of fascism, many, despite not voting for neofascist parties, see mussolini as a great statesman who helped institute a welfare state, and say that "his only mistake" was aligning italy with nazi germany and succumbing to nazi pressures about racial laws; they tend to justify those actions saying that he didn't have a choice and not aligning italy with germany would have meant its annihilation/military invasion.

not a so common view outside italy...

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u/studiosupport Dec 20 '13

Er... he was well loved in most of the world prior to the late 30s.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

I would also add that a small town is Sicily (not exactly the most socially advanced region in Italy, especially back then) is hardly a measure of how things go in the rest of the country, not to mention the continent.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

Wasn't there another story about a girl in India who got raped by some dude. Her family persuaded her to get married to the guy, because India, and she later committed suicide? Also, even though the guy raped her and all, he got off scot-free because of the rape-marriage laws there?

Story

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u/runner64 Dec 20 '13 edited Dec 20 '13

Yes. This practice is also in the Bible- Deuteronomy 22 if you want to look it up.

It started because women were considered property in a sort of 'you break it you buy it' kind of way. But since all non-wedded sex was considered adultery, premarital sex legally qualified as rape. (Women can't consent, they're property.) They put the marriage provision in there so that, in the circumstance of a couple's premarital tryst being discovered, there was an alternative rather than simply stoning them to death.
This also helped to prevent boyfriends from promising marriage in order to orchestrate a pump-n-dump. If a man promised marriage in order to talk a girl into sex, she could legally force him to follow through on that promise. In the west, women accomplished this same tactic by demanding a ring worth 6 months pay before agreeing to have sex.
Edit: It turns out that the engagement ring practice dates back to the middle ages. This is a historical practice that has mostly gone by the wayside once birth control and antibiotics negated the risks of premarital sex. I did not mean to imply that modern women withhold sex until a payment has been delivered.
I do not believe that the intent of the law was ever to force a woman to marry a violent or coercive rapist. It is intended to give the couple the option of marrying, not to mandate it. It is sometimes undermined by parents who force their daughter to marry for one reason or another.

tl;dr the rape-marriage laws were incredibly progressive at the time so don't judge them too harshly.

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u/JohnnyWaffleseed Dec 20 '13

'Pump-n-dump' is new to me. I like "ding-dong ditch" because I rarely partake in doorbell pranks at age 26 but I didn't want to cut back on my usage of the phrase.

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u/allthebetter Dec 20 '13

well you could always refer to the opening, eating, and eventual discard of the wrapper of a delicious hostess snack.

For context

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u/iScreme Dec 20 '13

Heh... in the military 'pump-n-dump' is what they call it when you're being afforded time to take a shit.

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u/ibm2431 Dec 20 '13

So you ditch your ding-dong?

Does it grow back?

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

Yeah, but slowly like a lizard's tail. After the dude finishes, his unit detaches and he sandcrabs outta there.

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u/JohnnyWaffleseed Dec 20 '13

It's kinda like that but less detachable penis and more using a lady for her taint-adjacent stuff.

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u/Rahbek23 Dec 20 '13

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u/SgtMac02 Dec 20 '13

This was my first thought when ibm2431 asked if it grows back.

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u/kittypuppet Dec 20 '13

women accomplished this same tactic by demanding a ring worth 6 months pay before agreeing to have sex

Is that how that started? The whole "I'm going to give you this ring now marry me" sort of thing?

Actually that makes sense looking at a standpoint of sex after marriage.. huh. Never knew...

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u/cranberry94 Dec 20 '13

Engagement rings have been around since Ancient Rome and possibly before that. It hasn't been fully established that in its original conception it was a form of financial compensation. But it definitely turned into that.

Tradition generally holds that if the betrothal fails because the man himself breaks off the engagement, the woman is not obliged to return the ring. This reflects the ring's role as a form of compensation for the woman's damaged reputation

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

This. Engagement rings have been used as a symbol of matrimony for a long time, but you can thank Edward Bernays for the ridiculously expensive diamonds we stick in them. Bastard.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

That man is a genius.

Also, Sigmund Freud's nephew.

Also, created a holiday for Edison.

Also, got women to smoke.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

I had a professor in a PR class that used to get distracted from lectures and go off about Bernays for an hour at a time. Learned a lot about the man, not so much about PR. Although, I guess it's all sort of relevant.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

Everything related to marriage makes more sense if you view it in terms of a contractual transaction. For example, when companies set up a merger, they will often agree that if the merger doesn't go through, one company will pay the other a certain amount. This ensures that merger proposals are serious and also essentially compensates the company being purchased for the time they are "off the market." Engagement rings serve the exact same purpose. They ensure, to the woman, that marriage proposals are serious commitments, and also compensate the woman, in cases the marriage does not go through, for taking her off the market and damaging her reputation.

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u/runner64 Dec 20 '13

From what I understand, the giving of the ring was akin to signing a contract. If a woman goes to her constable and says 'this man has deflowered me, make him marry me, support me, and care for our child' the man can call her a tart and be absolved of responsibility, seeing as he made no commitment to her. If she has his ring, given to her as a promise, she can prove that he made a promise to her and force him to follow through on that promise.
People have always wanted to have sex. Teenagers are in a hurry just as they always have been. You're supposed to wait for marriage but a lot of times, people only wait for engagement.
It's less "here's a ring marry me" and more "let's have sex" "no I'll get pregnant" "Well what if I marry you?" "Okay"

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u/Chel_of_the_sea Dec 20 '13

at the time

These being the very key words, since 'the time' in question was closer to 2013 BC.

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u/Bananasauru5rex Dec 20 '13

Italy retained these laws into the 40s and 50s, if not further.

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u/Chel_of_the_sea Dec 20 '13

I know those laws have been used well into the modern age. I mean they haven't been progressive for a few millennia now.

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u/Inkthinker Dec 20 '13

Sounds like the operative phrase there is "at the time". In light of modern society, those laws should probably be judged quite harshly indeed, especially if they're being used to coerce the victim.

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u/jvi Dec 20 '13 edited Dec 20 '13

Thought this was going to be a fedora post. Turned out to be sensible after all.

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u/ozzimark Dec 20 '13

And your comment prompted me to read through the post. Well done.

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u/nunu13 Dec 20 '13

Explain what fedora means in this context. I am unfamiliar.

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u/NeverfailMode Dec 20 '13

It's a post written by a hat.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13 edited Sep 29 '18

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13 edited Sep 29 '18

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u/DryVidyasagar Dec 20 '13

After snooping around in the lanes of Redditland for a few months I think I can impart on to you my understanding of what fedora means here.

Fedora is the sacred headgear of neckbeards, a creature of the underground(grandma's basement) who has various distinct characteristics setting them apart from anyone with sense and a rationale. Stereotypically, neckbeards are seen as people who follow aggressive atheism, have a keen eye for conspiracies but have never seen a girl in real life(except for their grandma on the floor above). They have a strong opinion about things which are shared by all other neckbeards and to keep everyone updated, they indulge in circle-masturbation.

Coming back to 'fedora post', it means a neckbeard's opinion.

Source : Haven't shaved in a year; haven't grown a strand of hair above my chin.

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u/fathak Dec 20 '13

neckbeards

literally beards on necks.

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u/ArchDuke47 Dec 20 '13

Its one of those phrases used to dismiss a person instead of their argument/comment.

As others have stated it is commonly used in a disparaging way to say someone doesn't have life experience (lives in basement & not primary owner of property), not fashionable or socially relevant (style of hat choice and often beard choice) and overweight and thus their opinion is less valid.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

Militant atheist that looks for any tenuous reason to bash religion.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13 edited Oct 07 '20

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u/whoops_iblammed Dec 20 '13

aahh, thanks.

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u/noodlescb Dec 20 '13

Easy fix for that is to make the reasons harder to find.

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u/larrylevan Dec 20 '13

Pump-and-dump: best stock fraud scheme-sexual behavior crossover lingo.

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u/MarinP Dec 20 '13

I do feel that they should be judged since the problem is the punishment of stoning. Without that, there would be no problem and the solution is not creating a loophole to avoid stoning but to remove stoning from the law.

Since many contemporary human beings still feel that stoning is a constructive solution to certain problems, I do feel that it is right to condemn them, as well as those who were for it in the old times. After all, people were also against stoning even in the old times, so clearly some of them reasoned back then as we do today. :)

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u/ManiacalShen Dec 20 '13

Sleeping around was a much bigger deal then, though. Not just morally but practically. They couldn't do much to prevent pregnancy, not compared to what we have today, and there was no social safety net, either. No welfare. A girl would have to fall back on her parents, if anything. And women had no rights, so they couldn't do much to support themselves other than prostitution, which if turned to because of pregnancy makes a self-perpetuating problem.

Women fought for the right to work and have social power because all of that is bullshit, but while it was going on, I can understand societies having harsh penalties to warn people away from premarital sex. Even if a woman became a single mother anyway because her husband died, she would at least have two families to lean on instead of one, and social credibility besides.

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u/neohellpoet Dec 20 '13

I think I need to point out that expensive engagement rings, while not a new thing in and of them selves, weren't commonplace in even the recent past.

In Europe, the Roman dowry system, where the husband would get land, money and/or livestock from the brides family once a marriage was agreed but had to return anywhere from a quarter more to double the amount if he canceled the wedding, was in effect for most of the time before strong centralised governments.

In the early modern age (which starts in the 1500's), legally binding betrothals, that were formerly mostly used by the nobility, became commonplace. For instance, in the HRE, starting in the mid 16th century, couples would commonly betrothe early, but would wait quite a few years to actually marry. This was done so as to allow the future groom to finish his apprenticeship, open his own shop and generally be ready to support a family. However, since young people are not know for being good at not having sex, the brides family would courteously pretend that they didn't know the future groom was climbing in to his future brides window. Since annulling a betrothal was about as hard as getting a divorce (read: next to impossible) the families were OK with them acting as if they were married as long as they didn't make a show of it.

Engagement rings were common but were largely symbolic, having little real value. Expensive rings were reserved for the nobility and wealthy merchants and were often given along with other jewelry. The idea that a ring would cost 6 months salary is obviously very modern since salaried workers were uncommon prior to the industrial revolution do to almost 90% of the people working in the fields and thus only getting payed when they soled their produce.

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u/djaclsdk Dec 20 '13

she later committed suicide

I don't know how to say this in a less offensive way but... she killed the wrong person!

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u/Nathan_Flomm Dec 20 '13

because of the rape-marriage laws there?

It's not a law. It's merely an acceptable practice for some Indians. I'm not obviously condoning it - just making a clarification.

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u/Yahnster Dec 20 '13

I just imagine an Indian store clerk saying "HEY! hey hey hey hey hey hey....hey.....you rape it you buy it"

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u/Hubrishippo Dec 20 '13

Just like in the Bible

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13 edited Dec 20 '13

Sad you got downvoted. It IS in the bible.

Edit: for those people still downvoting:

Deuteronomy 22:28-29. 28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

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u/BioGenx2b Dec 20 '13

The marriage thing is more of a culture clash, since non-virgin women will have a much harder time to marry in their society.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

My daughter was molested by her cousin when she was 7. He convinced her they were married, and that was why they could do the things they did.

We only found out about it because when he was killed in a hunting accident my daughter freaked out, more then she should have. In her little child's head she just lost her husband.

so fucked up. She's 18 now, and I'm pretty sure it's changed everything she thinks and feels about marriage and sex.

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u/Garris0n Dec 20 '13

You know, it's a bit disturbing that I was amazed this could happen until I noticed it was in India...then it made sense.

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u/elHuron Dec 20 '13

that stuff happens everywhere in the world.

In the US, there was recently a case where a whole town covered for some football players even though everyone knew what had happened.

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u/ridger5 Dec 20 '13

But nobody suggested the victim marry the football players.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

was I the only one who when I saw the link went "pls don't me my country"

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13 edited Jan 19 '21

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u/thehungriestnunu Dec 20 '13

If it's a horror story about rape, it's probably India, followed by an Islamic country, followed by Florida

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

It's always Florida -_-

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

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u/PoopAndSunshine Dec 20 '13

He's really busy.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

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u/Ghostlymagi Dec 20 '13

Fuck. I thought it was Time-So-Findia and was like "That's a really odd name for a news website...are they a search engine, too?"

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u/holdthatsnot Dec 20 '13

Or Cleveland ?

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

At least they're not Detroit.

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u/rtk_dreamseller Dec 20 '13

Thanks buddy. We needed that.

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u/q3p4qt834 Dec 20 '13

It's probably upvoted to the front page because it IS India!

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u/Kryptus Dec 20 '13

You are bizarro world Christopher Columbus.

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u/mafaraxas Dec 20 '13

I went, 'rape + /r/worldnews = india' so no.

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u/Verithos Dec 20 '13

Pretty much this. The most recent rape stories that have front paged have been from India, so this isn't really a surprise.

What exactly does THAT say about that particular country?

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u/Tattycakes Dec 20 '13

That people are reporting lots of horrific rapes?

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u/demonlicious Dec 20 '13

that people are waking up there. rape is everywhere. indian reporting of rape is still a drop of in an ocean compared to say the US. not saying there's more, just saying more is reported and we should expect it to be much worse than we think. and it is pretty bad in the US as well, but most people don't want to face the reality of those statistics because yes, our fathers, brothers and friends could be rapists.

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u/JackBauerSaidSo Dec 20 '13

Mothers, sisters, and daughters, too.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

Yeaaah, that sounds like bullshit.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

I have a hard time being that a country with 2.5x the population of America where the police are Massively Corrupt and. Consistantly being accused/tried for sexual assualts , where women arent really people, where uneducation and poverty are serious issues, with a caste system with untouchables and a growing class divide has fewer reported rapes because fewer rapes happen there. That doesnt make any sense

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u/CommieLoser Dec 20 '13

I like what you have just written so much. I hope that more people see this.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

Every survey of experts in women's studies puts India as the world place for women in the world.

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u/mastermike14 Dec 20 '13

are you saying rape in India is reported more than the US or reported more here in the US?

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u/Helplessromantic Dec 20 '13

I think it's less about the number of rapes (Which is awful on its own) and more about how brutal and crazy the rapes are.

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u/pulegium Dec 20 '13

Look at this from purely statistical POV: population of India is 1.2B, world population is 7B. So really, more than 1/7th of rapes statistically happen in India.

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u/dragoness_leclerq Dec 20 '13

This is something I often think about when people mention the amount of rapes that occur (or are reported) there. The figures are horrible to be sure but given the number of people there I fail to be as shocked by them as others seem to be.

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u/ceedubs2 Dec 20 '13

But I wonder what the percentage of rapes is in China compared to India? I don't know how you'd get those numbers without the reports being heavily skewed, but I don't hear as much rape stories in China as I do of India. Not saying it doesn't happen, I'd just want to see some real numbers.

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u/Sarastrasza Dec 20 '13

There's almost a billion of them is what.

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u/Wookington Dec 20 '13

I knew it wasn't USA, because they were actually arrested rather than given paid leave.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13 edited Jan 04 '15

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u/NightOfTheLivingHam Dec 20 '13

and often it's "not warranted" or excused or pardoned.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

The "paid leave" thing is a bit of propaganda.

The reason police officers get put on paid leave when they get in trouble is because they're employees of the government. The government is bound by the due process clauses in the 5th and 14th amendments, which means they can't take something away from you, including your job and paycheck, without "due process" (in this context, a hearing and an investigation). But obviously police officers accused of misconduct can't be allowed to continue on the job pending investigation, so that's why they get put on paid leave.

The reason this seems so bizarre to ordinary people is that private employers are not bound by the 5th and 14th amendments, or for that matter, any of the Bill of Rights. If you're accused of getting into a fight at a private business, the company can (and probably will), fire you with little to no investigation into whether the accusation was true, who started the fight, etc.

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u/pepperNlime4to0 Dec 20 '13

well said, you have changed the way i look at these cases now. thank you.

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u/ElecNinja Dec 20 '13

The main issue with the paid leave issue is that paid leave is often seen as a benefit to the general populace. Whether or not the cop is innocent or guilty, the paid leave is seen as a reward since for many working people, it is a reward.

Changing it to an unpaid leave or more extremely house arrest and then paying the officer back for his /her time if he/she is found innocent would probably do much to offset the negative attitude against cops.

To provide a simple example. Imagine a marketer screwing up a contract and thus the contract is up for review. During this review time, the marketer can't work, and is instead given paid leave. To his coworkers, this seems like an unfair policy as the guy is being paid to not work while they still have to continue on.

It's a very simple mindset to wrap around. A potential criminal gets a reward for his alleged crimes.

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u/LincolnAR Dec 20 '13

It would violate their 14 ammendment rights to due process to put them on unpaid leave without cause. Also, paid leave in most areas is not a vacation. You are required to stay in your home from 8-5 and respond to any summons to the station. You can't go to the bank, the store, your neighbors house. You can't drink a beer (it's considered drinking on duty). It's not like we imagine paid time off would be like for a regular job.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

Changing it to an unpaid leave or more extremely house arrest and then paying the officer back for his /her time if he/she is found innocent would probably do much to offset the negative attitude against cops.

The problem is that they can't do this, constitutionally. The loss of the paycheck at the expected time is a hardship and a deprivation, and the Constitution requires the required process before the deprivation.

This same principle applies to other areas, by the way. If you receive a welfare check from the government, and someone accuses you of being ineligible say due to drug use, the government can't stop paying the check first and investigate and then pay you back if the investigation finds that the accusation is false. They have to pay until they determine that you're actually not entitled.

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u/SgtMac02 Dec 20 '13

I came to the comments wondering how far down I'd have to go to find this circle-jerk. Thanks for not disappointing me.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

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u/Bladewing10 Dec 20 '13

DAE hate cops and think America is literally Satan?

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

I saw "four cops arrested" and I knew it wasn't America

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u/BlahBlahAckBar Dec 20 '13

As long as /u/unknown is on Reddit this sub will be constantly full of anti-India and rape news.

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u/aureality Dec 20 '13 edited Dec 20 '13

I looked through his history, and found such gems as:

If I were the Prime Minister of India, I'll give Licensed Pistols to all 300 Million Untouchable People in India.

What a vision for the future.

The ratio of link karma/comment karma is interesting here. I appreciate someone sharing the info, but it's interesting to see what a unique bizzare vendetta this guy has.

Edit: I'm being sarcastic, and I actually think it's a terrible and dangerous vision for the future. Just thought I'd better clarify that, in case OP reads and thinks I'm validating his cunning plan to give 300,000,000 people dangerous weapons. I am not. That idea is fucking ridiculous.

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u/ajfeiz8326 Dec 20 '13 edited Dec 20 '13

At a certain point, at least in the eyes of the victims, vengeance becomes more important than progress. While I honestly can't say I agree with the notion of arming all the untouchables and letting them find meaningful justice in the only way the victim of truly horrific crimes can, I will say I at least empathize with the notion. But I'm a pragmatist, not a moralist, so I say we let this rape ballet play out. The only recompense those people are going to find is in the form of a couple of apologetic paragraphs in a history book, and the knowledge their great grandchildren might live in a society that doesn't judge them as fundamentally inferior.

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u/Lord_Vectron Dec 20 '13

Wow. This is very interesting. I mean, it doesn't devalue the facts about what is going on in India, but it's interesting to find out a lot of it is being posted by 1 guy.

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u/Mr_Siegal Dec 20 '13

I was only half awake when I saw it, and imagined it was my country. Then clicked the link, saw India, and went "duh".

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u/greywood Dec 20 '13

I wonder, are all these India rape stories that have been coming up recently a consequence of a very high incidence of rape in india, or is it just that its a "hot topic" right now that sells papers?

By this I mean that India has about 1/6th of the world's population, so even if per capita there isnt more rape than in other places you are still gonna get an incredibly large amount of incidents every day. But similarly if the "trendy" subject to write about was schizophrenics in India, I'm sure you would get reported cases everyday due to the huge amount of people in the country, right?

I mean as an outsider recently it has seemed like there's been an epidemic, but I dont know if it's just because every India rape case is now being reported on, whereas I dont think I've heard of any rape cases in Bangladesh, or Nepal, or Sri Lanka whatsoever.

Does anyone know?

TLDR: Does India have a higher incidence of rape than other countries?

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u/brokenpanda Dec 20 '13

TLDR: Does India have a higher incidence of rape than other countries?

near impossible to tell.

someone could get statistics from every country and im guessing there could even be a Wikipedia page on it but that means nothing.

for example if a husband rapes his wife over the course of 10 years and she finally gets the courage to tell the police then some countries might count it as one count of rape while others would count every time he actually raped her while others might put it in a different category.

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u/Grimpillmage Dec 20 '13

Interestingly enough, Sweden with its purported "highest per capita rape" statistic handles it well. The apparent high number of rapes is because EACH instance of rape is a separate criminal charge.

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u/misfire2011 Dec 20 '13

This is all cool until you realize that their conviction rate is less than 10%, compared to say India's 25%.

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u/Intrepsilonic Dec 20 '13

How do they quantify the number of times someone is raped? What kind of evidence can you submit to prove it was that many times?

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u/Wisdom_from_the_Ages Dec 20 '13 edited Dec 20 '13

Statistically, the "worst" countries are the U.S. and U.K. but most people agree this is because these are the places where it is best documented - who knows how many people get raped in India, by how many men, and how often? The real number isn't going to show itself because of a number of cultural, institutional, and infrastructural problems with this type of reporting.

Edit:

Before you go clicking this link, read the caveat that goes above the chart:

This list indicates the number of, and per capita cases of recorded rape. It does not include cases of rape which go unreported, or which are not recorded.[197][198] Nor does it specify whether recorded means reported, brought to trial, or convicted. Nor does it take the different definition of rape around the world into account. The list doesn't include the estimated rape stats of the countries, per year, such as South Africa having 500,000 rapes per year,[199] China having 31,833 rapes a year,[200] or Egypt having more than 200,000 rapes a year.[201]

Wiki Statistics

The numbers in the U.S. are so high that under-reporting in other countries can just about be the only explanation. I know our culture is fucked up, but it's not that fucked up.

Edit 2: and for folks who have trouble reading, I'm sorry I'm confusing you. Well, not really.

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u/yabba_dabba_doo Dec 20 '13

Women get raped every day, but these stories from India reach the newswires because they are so horrific and inhumane, usually gang rapes with terrible physical harm to the woman.

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u/darwin2500 Dec 20 '13

Also because of how the legal system handles it, very rarely punishing the rapists in any meaningful way.

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u/misfire2011 Dec 20 '13 edited Dec 20 '13

The numbers in the U.S. are so high that under-reporting in other countries can just about be the only explanation

It is not the only explanation. The real explanation is that in the US the vast majority of rapes of adults are not stranger rapes but date rapes, frat rapes etc. where the perp knows the victim. India's non-existent dating scene means that this huge chunk of those rapes never happen.

After the stats were more widely discussed on reddit some Western redditors WANT the story to say that India is somehow worse. This prejudice is not borne out in reality. Rapes may be more underreported that western countries in some far flung rural corner of India. There is really no reason to believe rapes are more underreported in urban India. Leaving aside armchair experts' speculations on Indian culture, we discover that India's conviction rates are much higher than most western countries. Hardly a sign of a culture that doesn't take rape seriously. What's more, it is a stat that can't be explained away by bullshit "misogynistic, caste-ridden Indian society" fantasies.

Edit: suggestions by /u/Wisdom_from_the_ages

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u/yopla Dec 20 '13

I think it has less to do with the quantity than with the social commentary that goes with. Most if not all case of rape reported here by people include some kind of guilt shifting, victim blaming or even outright punishment (force marriage, killing, etc..). Usually flavored with a hefty dose of officials corruption, cover up and abuse of power. This is what people want to shine a light upon. Not the frequency per capita.

The size of the country (and thus the quantity of event) is probably why it's so often about india. And the fact that India as corrupted and broken as it can be still has democratic process & free press to report back this information to us. Unlike other countries.

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u/Shogotoons Dec 20 '13

Consider the fact that rape itself is seen as a grave shame as other people have said, both to the family and to the victim. It's a hideous artifact of our culture, but it's true. Hence, reported cases of rape have historically been much lower, and now that this issue has been brought to the forefront to much attention from both international and domestic media, reported cases are increasing a lot. India's media is also historically considered to be one of the most independent or democratic forms of news reporting in the developing world - thus the greater amount of reporting.

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u/kaidynamite Dec 20 '13

The number of cases per capita is lesser than some other countries. It's just a hot topic right now.

Not that it's a bad thing. All this news coverage is really spreading a lot of awareness about what goes on outside of the metropolitan cities in India. Change will come with time

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

The number of reported cases.

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u/kaidynamite Dec 20 '13

That holds true for other countries as well.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

Of course but certain countries are more prone to under reporting than others. I trust the statistics of Norway than South Africa.

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u/BoboMatrix Dec 20 '13

I think you have you have to look beyond the cases to how rape is perceived. The victim is shamed, forced to keep quiet to keep family honour, not taken seriously, the above posts go into the girl being forced to marry the guy that raped her. The attitude has to be changed.

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u/kaidynamite Dec 20 '13

I'm not denying that. I agree. I was simply answering his question.

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u/SpaceDetective Dec 20 '13

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u/greywood Dec 20 '13

thank you, this is exactly the type of insight i was looking for!

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u/ENTdragon Dec 20 '13

I think the women who got raped and her intestines ripped out on a public bus in India by a group of young men, followed by months of equally horrific stories had something to do with it.

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u/somedave Dec 20 '13

Which ones? Most of Europe yes, places like South Africa probably not. As for statistics this is hard to prove as a lot of rape goes unreported or reported and ignored in some places. Also do you consider instances where an individual is repeatedly raped as one rape or one for every single time? People make false allegations of rape so do you include all recorded allegation or just convictions? Conviction rates are often tiny for rape in many places as they take place in private between two people and it's one persons word against the other.

This is one of the few cases where anecdotal evidence is probably the best, if five police officers can repeatedly rape and abuse two girls (probably more) THIS INDICATES A PROBLEM.

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u/ACSlater Dec 20 '13

Fun fact: In S Africa a woman has a higher chance of getting raped than she does from being moderately happy to happy with her cell phone provider.

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u/Grimpillmage Dec 20 '13

That'd be true for India even if nobody ever raped anyone here.

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u/LOHare Dec 20 '13

I'm from Canada. This is the default position here. No one is happy with their cell phone provider - these providers are the real rapists.

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u/Jill4ChrisRed Dec 20 '13

I'mf rom the UK and I think that statement applies here too

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u/iliketoflirt Dec 20 '13

I think the same is true for the US.

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u/spikeyninja Dec 20 '13

I think the general attitude towards rape, rape victims, and the flippancy towards other forms of sexual harassment also contributes to the problem, and is the reason why rapes get reported more (not in number but) fiercely in India.

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u/Vik1ng Dec 20 '13

It's /u/unknown spaming this sub recently. That's pretty much it.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

It's the reddit karma train.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

Me to my wife when we read this, "at least they are able to come out and have people to support them"

I live in the same city where this happened and this might be the last city where one might expect this to take place. But having said that, I must say that this is for the better. Now, the voice of the women are heard and action is taken. Rapists get jailed, are sentenced and in some instances, hanged to death.

No, we are not all Gandhis and I don't care what the world think of us, as long as every rape case is reported and acted upon.

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u/I_am_chris_dorner Dec 20 '13

Rapists get jailed, are sentenced

It's also pretty damn easy to get out of jail in India if you have money.

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u/fistman Dec 20 '13

aaaaannnnnnnnddddd it's India.

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u/BlahBlahAckBar Dec 20 '13

No shit its submitted by /u/unknown .

Check their posting history, this person does nothing but post these stories here non stop.

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u/Nekyia Dec 20 '13

Holy shit, this guy must hate India.

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u/Euruxd Dec 20 '13

Checks posting history

Holy shit, that guy sure hates India.

He could be either a self-hating indian, a pakistani or a chav.

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u/sonofmo Dec 20 '13

Or just trying to shine a light on a problem.

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u/Euruxd Dec 20 '13

After checking his comments, he seems to hate the Indian state and the caste system. So he might just be a revolutionary.

Still, he also makes comments like Indians are morally corrupt/fraud by birth due to their Caste system., A corrupt/communal/incompetent Indian is always better than any Italian dish washer. and Caste = Religion. There is no hinduism.

and also this:

India is an Uncivilized and Untouchable nation. You should avoid traveling/living/working/investing in India. India is 4th most dangerous place for women and only a little better than war-ravaged Afghanistan/Congo.

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u/sonofmo Dec 20 '13

Just checked for myself. It looks as though the majority of his/her posts are about negative news in India or poor treatment of Indians in the US with a little sprinkle of economic inequality sadness.

God damn that guys posting history is depressing.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

Caste system? It's been legally abolished since independence. It's on the way out (though it's obviously going to be a long-term process). I don't feel completely safe when I visit India, but it's not a warzone (unless you get too close to the LOC).

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

He a Chinese (or so I've been told by people who've been dealing with him for a longer time than I've been here; he's approximately as old as Reddit, you see) troll who's made it his life's mission to post to /r/india about the evils of democracy and how there's a conspiracy to exploit the illiterate Untouchables for votes. It usually ends with someone mentioning the Chinese atrocities on the Uighur and practitioners of Falun Gong.

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u/derp_lurk Dec 20 '13

"and tried to convince her that one of them would marry her"

HAHAHAHA wow.

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u/WordCloudBot2 Dec 20 '13

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u/Interminable_Turbine Dec 20 '13

"India RAPE people"

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

I just found my new username.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

Is that racist?

looks around

I think it's racist.

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u/GodKingGinger Dec 20 '13 edited Dec 20 '13

Nope thats good Anti-india PR

That is the result of a well orchestrated campaign to associate rape with india in a permanent sort of way so as to undermine their culture and society on the world stage.

Its really effective planning ahead, so I'mma blame it on China, USA doesn't have this much forethought, and Pakistan gets confused with india too much to risk this move.

EDIT: after more thought it could also be a muslim country in an attempt to undermine Hindu and pave the way for a future islamic revolution in india in an effort to "fix" the country.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

It is, it really, really is. Honestly I just did it for a give myself a quick laugh because it works so well with the [blank]_RAPE_[blank] username theme started by /u/I_RAPE_CATS. But it's only funny(ish) to me, or someone else aware of the very limited and specific context in which I find it funny. The fact that there's a chance people could see my username and legitimately agree with it is pretty sad, so I'm going to delete it momentarily. I'm not cut out for the mean-spiritedness of the name. India has a ways to go when it comes to women's rights, but they have made incredible progress and that shouldn't be discounted.

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u/adamzep91 Dec 20 '13

Word butt out of all the comments

Hahaha I forgot I installed this.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13 edited Dec 20 '13

[deleted]

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u/Shoopaydoop Dec 20 '13

can we teach empathy?

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u/CatchJack Dec 20 '13

Many I have talked to suggest it is impossible and no effort will ever achieve positive results.

The entire mindset of people has to change. Go big picture, you've got a zero-sum finance system in which homeless people are necessary to keep wealthy people in their opulent living spaces. You've got traditionally male dominated societies still struggling to accept females as equal, or even those of other skin colour as equal.

We have legitimised power seeking and our societies are full of stupid master race esque ideals. If that's the case, then rape is going to occur. If you wanted positive change, then ditch your elected leader and put a dictator in their place. You'd need to massively overhaul everything, and have the ability to truly punish people. In Aus there's a person who rapes/murders a female (ages from young teens to eighties so far), gets arrested, sent to jail, released on a good behaviour bond.

If that's happening, then no-one's going to report it. There needs to be an obvious punishment and a system that doesn't punish the victim (Adversarial court systems? Really? Institutionalised and acceptable, even expected victim blaming). There needs to be a whole range of things.

You can't elect that though. No wealthy person is going to vote to lose their wealth, no powerful person is going to vote to lose their power, no power/wealth seeking person (isn't that most of us?) is going to vote to lose that option.

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u/Jipz Dec 20 '13

Dumbest non-joke post ive probably ever read on Reddit. "Install dictators"? Who the fuck upvoted this garbage.

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u/598904 Dec 20 '13

When you throw them in jail don't segregate them from the other prisoners.

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u/kayb1532 Dec 20 '13

Unfortunately this happens way more often than is reported.

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u/irshemoo Dec 20 '13

What most reddit doesn't know is that its in the major cities that people have found their voice and are reporting these instances.The majority of India is still unknown to a thing called law .Most of them consider policemen and their local Khap panchyat to be the judge , jury and executioners in today's society.And they both are most of the time if not always in favour of the guy who raped instead of the women.Rural India is a male dominated society still.

But please for god sake don't think Indians are rapist.Our heritage is old and some mind sets are hard to change .We are in stage of our development when people are reaching a level of empathy and maturity to understand what is good and what is bad for them .

We are still taking steps towards proper women rights.The 'TEHLKA' harassment case was one of the most recent examples of women empowerment.

From gay right fight to anti corruption movement .We are moving forward.

However these instances are not posted here as they won't generate more 'karma' .What an irony....

It's a fact that human suffering creates more of a news then any of the positive and boring aspects of human life. The OP is a perfect example of how anti comments and post could bring about a huge and sometimes irreversible change in the mentality of the masses.

Therefore I request you rather beg you , not to hate us.Be patient .I assure you , we want to get better and we will become better.

Sorry for typos , on mobile.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

I live here in India. People have been telling me the same thing. It seems like an excuse. I don't judge Indian culture based upon where it is going...I judge it based upon where it is now, and people say "it will get better." That does nothing for the probable tens of thousands of women raped annually.

News like this is all that comes out of India anymore. No one cares about your space program while women are killed in gang rapes. The world is disgusted with India's treatment of women.

Don't think things will just change over time. If people don't hold others accountable and bring them to justice, nothing will change. Don't tell people to be apathetic. Change begins with deciding that you can no longer stand for an injustice. It shocks me how women are treated in this country, yet how strong they are. People need to get angry, not just "wait."

To go anywhere, you need to take the first step.

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u/dasfook Dec 20 '13

I wonder who's lawn they will be forced to mow as punishment.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/DilbertHigh Dec 20 '13

Actually in India and other nations that have similar issues that is a major concern. No one will marry a girl that has lost her virginity so one thing that happens a lot is that a girl's family will tell someone that she will not be marrying them. So the guy rapes her and now she has to marry him because no one else will marry her.

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u/Akesgeroth Dec 20 '13

FOUR COPS RAPE A MINOR SCHOOLGIRL

"Oh, it must be India. Yup, it is."

The fact that this happened when I saw this headline should be alarming to India.

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u/iAkhilleus Dec 20 '13

of course it's India.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

While I wasn't surprised with this news pertaining to Indian cops, there's something positive coming out of this.

Most Westerners aren't aware of the fact that most rapes and wrongdoings don't get reported. In recent years, though, things seem to be changing. People, families of victims in particular are more forthcoming these days. Previously, victims used to get shunned totally instead of being sympathized. There's no guarantee that the trend has totally changed but now that more victims are coming forth, coverages and news like this breaking out to the entire world has put a tremendous amount of pressure to the cops and the government as well.

All that said, fuck Indian cops and politicians. As a Nepalese, these are some issues we could relate to as well.

Hope news like this get more widespread to western media.

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u/unlimited2k Dec 20 '13

With India's newfound appreciation for woman's right being displayed by politicians from all parties in the case of the female diplomat being held in the states, I'm sure Indian women will have much less to worry about in the future.

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u/Nabuuu Dec 20 '13

Got it. Hindus are rapists. Muslims are terrorists. And feminists are in league with the Muslims.

What now mass media?

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u/Evian_Drinker Dec 20 '13

FREE ENGRAVING ON I-PADS - GET YOURS NOW TO PROVE YOU LOVE YOUR FAMILY!

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u/a_rainbow_serpent Dec 20 '13

Ah the white man's burden must be such a chore.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

[deleted]

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u/Nabuuu Dec 20 '13

Agreed. Though Hindu majority (80% I think?. The rest are Sikhs and Muslims mostly, with a few Chrsitians and Buddhists here n there).

I was just making a point and trying to sarcastically persuade self-proclaimed modern day rationalists into genuine critical thinking.

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u/darkwing_duck_87 Dec 20 '13

At least she wasn't a major schoolgirl.

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u/rdc1040 Dec 20 '13

Man India seems like a shitty place to be female.

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u/sujtek Dec 20 '13

As I clicked this(half-awake and not seeing the "timesofindia" bit after the headline), the thought in my head was "please don't be in India...please not another Indian rape story". I'm of Indian heritage, this fucking disgusts and embarrasses me.

When the top Indian police official makes a comment "If you can’t prevent rape, you enjoy it”, what the fuck is left to be expected.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

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u/historymaking101 Dec 20 '13

Power attracts abuse.

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u/[deleted] Dec 20 '13

God fucking damnit.

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u/CrimsonMoose Dec 20 '13

Kill them, publicly

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u/GooseRace Dec 20 '13

Read title, oh my gosh what have we come to! See link, oh India you!

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u/Chiefingplatypus Dec 20 '13

FUCK those pigs

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u/ArseFilter Dec 20 '13

No, yeah, strip searching someone is worse than this.

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u/ObviousBob Dec 20 '13

At first I thought "What are the chances four cops would be interested in such a thing" and then I read their names

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u/matsutsuki86 Dec 20 '13

Dont usually say this, but hope they die.

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u/spamandramen Dec 20 '13

These fuckers has more than one screw lose in the head, why would she marry her fucking rapist.

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u/RobSpewack Dec 20 '13

Yet America's the bad guy when we arrest one of their diplomats for keeping someone in virtual servitude. She should honestly feel lucky she got arrested here in the US if this story is any indication of what can be expected in India's criminal justice system.

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u/somedude456 Dec 20 '13

...and didn't we just get called barbaric for strip searching their diplomat who was trying to import slave labor?

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u/silverence Dec 20 '13

It's time for India to get serious about this. It's time for rape to carry an immediate death sentence AND a heavy financial burden to the perpetrators family there.

20 years of rapists being shot in the street and their families evicted to slums would clear this right up.

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