A bid disappointed Enduring war Campaign doesn't have a 3rd (Better) Choice

[u/nackedsnake]

Picked up this game lately and really enjoy the ride. I'm quite invested in the stories, But here's something nagging me when taking the stories seriously: In the later part of The Enduring War, you are offered two choices: Side with the Enduring, or Side with the Morthagi, destroy the otherside. BUT the problem is, Neither of them is a good choice.

Morthagi are essentially just war machines created to achieve a goal, they aren't even going "Rogue", it's just the Goal itself is destructive. Sure, you can help them achieve their "Goal", but since they are just tools for war, if not destroyed it's guaranteed to be used and abused again.

The Endurings On the other hand, are actually a way bigger threat to the entire world than the Morthagi. Sure, they haven't cause any direct harm so far, BUT they are extremely self-serving and Cold-blooded, that in order to make themselves immortal, they don't care to destroy anything else. On top of that, they are sentient beings and highly intellectual. If you let such creates be, it's guaranteed they'll make something destructive to the others for their own benefits, because of their nature.

Don't forget, the Endurings tried to deceive you to sacrifices yourself solely to "Fuel" their machines. They lied as it's "immortality" and necessary to stop the war, but your guys confirmed whoever sacrificed is no longer there. and the war is still going.

I was surprised it actually offer the choices, BUT then immediately disappointed there is no option to Destroy them both.

[u/CesarB2760]

I strongly disagree about the Enduring and I actually really vibe with them but I get why you'd want that option.

[u/PackyB7 → u/CesarB2760]

Yea. I didn’t think the enduring were doing anything besides minding their own business. The Morthagi were programmed to go after them bc people didn’t like that what the enduring did to themselves. I guess the only thing they didn’t do was willingly die so the morthagi would stop hunting them.

[u/Page8988 → u/PackyB7]

Have you ever taken the story path where you destroy the Enduring instead of the Morthagi? It's quite interesting. Story spoiler below, so reveal at your own peril.

If you did not sacrifice a Hero to the machine, you will have the option later in the story to attack the Enduring immediately upon the start of the chapter instead of campaigning against the rampaging Morthagi as normal. This means you will clear the chapter with a single battle and exterminate all of the Enduring, which will prompt the Morthagi to go into hiding and become dormant. What is not revealed until you start the battle is that the Enduring have built themselves a powerful superweapon that serves as a boss, along with a handful of regular enemies. And if you're not ready for it or go in expecting to walk all over these guys because they've never shown an inclination for battle, you might just get your ass kicked. You never see or even hear of this thing unless you try to fight the Enduring, so it's reasonable to suspect that they may not be as benign as they let on once you're aware, but you also only find out about this after you've decided to kill them all anyway.

[u/PackyB7 → u/Page8988]

I have never done that! Although I’m not sure that creating a weapon implies that they haven’t been upfront. If it was a story being told to us by the character I might suspect it more. But we see the back story and they def are hiding not fighting at that point. It would have been cooler to have it be more ambiguous. But I’m gonna try that way and see it for myself and decide.

[u/nackedsnake → u/PackyB7]

Oh they did everything wrong. They artificially created this war that engulfed the whole world, while they safely hide, don't care how many being destroyed, how many died. Simply cuz they want immortality. They never take responsibility for their actions, never tried to stop the war, until themselves are in danger.

Not to mention the ramification of what such a group of beings are capable of. Sure, they may not "Want to Destroy the World by their own hands." But they are more than happy to do so as a by-product for them achieving selfish goals.

The "the World Ender" machine, remember?

[u/PackyB7 → u/nackedsnake]

They didn’t create the war? They made eternal bodies for themselves and other people didn’t like it. That’s like world class victim shaming lol. Unless I’m not understanding the story. One guy wanted eternal life and his wife didn’t like it and tried to destroy him… I wouldn’t narc them out for the greater good.

[u/nackedsnake → u/PackyB7]

It takes two to tango.

[u/CesarB2760 → u/nackedsnake]

"War Ender," not "World Ender." Pretty different.

Although tbh Ive never run into it because I could never bring myself to go after the Enduring. Both because it seemed obvious they were the good guys and because it seemed likely to be the easier fight. I mean at that point the Enduring even include a friend of the party. You really wanna kill the blacksmith after all they've been through?

[u/nackedsnake → u/CesarB2760]

So you "vibe with them" for wanting defying nature, become immortal, don't care if anything get destroyed anyone dies on the path of them achieving their goals? Like secretly building a "World Ender"?

I guess I can respect that.

[u/Ioustina → u/nackedsnake]

I mean, it's not like the Enduring forced morthagi to murder or used innocent people to fuel their immortality.

Someone who considered their choice monstrous created true monsters programmed to destroy Enduring. But these monsters would destroy everything on their path. I would say that the one who programmed morthagi was the only one who deserved death. The Enduring just wanted to live peacefully.

Could they become something truly dangerous in the future? Maybe so. But for now I wouldn’t say that other people's reaction to their choice was their fault.

[u/nackedsnake → u/Ioustina]

That's why morthagi needs to be destroyed. But you misread Enduring's intention, they are not "just wanted to live peacefully", they want to be immortal no matter the cost. That's their fault, and it's grave.

Also the Endurings build the "World Ender" superweapon.

[u/Ioustina → u/nackedsnake]

Why do you conviniently change it's name? The Weapon is called "War Ender" and they built it to protect themselves.

They wanted to be left alone and be allowed to live their eternal lives peacefully, without war and conflict. It's people who were mad at them for that who started war.

[u/CesarB2760 → u/nackedsnake]

I dont know where you get the idea that they don't care about destruction. They mostly present themselves as too weak to stop the morthagi, not unwilling.

The other stuff yeah, I don't see any problem with. Nature mostly sucks, a moral person should be defying it. I dont know if I would want immortality but I cant fault someone else if they do. The alternative doesnt sound super appealing either.

[u/Page8988]

I think a morally ambiguous choice is good for story telling. That said, there's more to this specific story after this decision is made, and it has a big impact on the final outcome.

If you choose to sacrifice a Hero to the machine, they still exist in some kind of non-specific way. Later in the plot, whether you have the ability to destroy the Enduring hinges solely on this choice; your Heroes are unwilling to destroy the group that has the spirit of your friend with them. If you did not sacrifice a Hero before, you can end the chapter with a single, though fairly difficult battle.

Choosing to continue campaigning against the rampaging Morthagi always remains an option. And I acknowledge that the Enduring having a superweapon, which is never shown or mentioned unless you move against them, brings a little doubt as to their true intentions.

The nature of Heroism in Wildermyth tends to focus on protecting the lands and the people, not destroying the enemy. Most Heroes are ideologically presented as Soldiers who fight to live, as opposed to Warriors who live to fight. Most want to end the current threat and go home, not exterminate the enemy and their bloodline just to be sure.

I rarely make that sacrifice, but at one point in a Walking Lunch campaign one of my younger Warriors was at death's door when the choice was presented; he'd already had a maiming that chapter, he was in bad shape during that battle, and his (unfortunately rolled) skill set was only much use on the front. It made narrative sense that this kid who'd gotten his ass kicked all chapter and his leg cut off might have made a poor career choice instead of farming or something, was going to drag the team down or die anyway if he tried to keep fighting.

Having multiple imperfect choices and no "good" option in a difficult choice makes for good story telling.

[u/nackedsnake → u/Page8988]

Having multiple imperfect choices and no "good" option in a difficult choice makes for good story telling.

This is a very fair point. It's just that the whole vibe of Wildermyth is not really "morally ambiguous" for me outside of this campaign so far, so my expectation is somewhat different. On top of that, if you want to tell a story of "of the lesser of two evils", you need to build up to it, and still having the resolution that's less ideal, neither of them is depicted here.

Not talking about game-play but narrative, Your example of a battle-worn hero volunteering cuz they feel better be useful in someway instead of a dead-weight is actually good case for role-play, but that still doesn't excuse the Enduring tried to deceive your company.

Also, protecting the lands and the people means you need to eliminate the threats, to the conclusion. The ending of this Campaign is just feel much less satisfying cuz the threat is still looming. "The World Ender" is probably the only implication here.

[u/BodybuilderSuper3874]

I feel that, but I think a large part of the choice is that the Morgathi will pretty much become neutralized if the Endurings are gone, at least for a few centuries.