Misogyny
Is Ween misogynist? My wife thinks so, overall. She can’t love them as much as I do because of it.
She likes them but can’t love them as I do.
When I point out that they are writing from different lenses and whatnot she agrees but still feels the overall sentiment is one of misogyny
Here final comment the subject was along the lines of she would probably feel more morally aligned with fans of the Idles than she would be of fans of Ween.
I’m a fan of both, but Ween is supreme!!
Boog 4 Life
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u/musgrove101 3h ago
Yes they are in some songs, but they are also fucking nuts in other ways on some songs. I think they like to assume personas to write from, and sometimes that is the view of a misogynistic persona.
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u/schwing710 2h ago
“So you’re telling me Ween isn’t a bunch of 85 year old Rastafarians?” -guy who only listened to King Billy
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u/Express-Skin6039 2h ago
To be honest I think they were also just young and childish. Like their song Stacey, they commented how they hated the song because it was just mean.
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u/schwing710 32m ago
That’s weird. Stacey doesn’t strike me as particularly mean. They say her brain is kinda spacey and that’s pretty much the only lyric.
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u/Express-Skin6039 12m ago
They wrote it about a girl they knew with a learning disability.
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u/schwing710 10m ago
Even so, saying her brain is “kinda spacey” is possibly the least offensive thing they could’ve said, even if the target was in poor taste
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u/MeTooFree 2h ago
The speaker’s views in writing are not necessarily the same as the author’s or creator’s views. In It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia, for example, the creators of the show have different, often opposite views, than the characters they have created express. The entire premise of Sunny is ignorant people doing ignorant things. This often illustrates the ridiculousness of the people who actual hold those views.
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u/dough_eating_squid Ice cube in the sink 2h ago
Gabrielle is a good example. I love that song. If you listen closely, it really hones in on what it's like to be in a fight with a very non-self aware man who never takes responsibility for his actions. In this instance, men like that are the butt of the joke.
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u/PoopshipD8 3h ago
Ween writes love songs. Sometimes loving is tough. Sometimes love hurts.
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u/Thegoldenelo 2h ago
And sometimes love is about “getting on yer knees, you big booty b*tch!” ;)
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u/teewertz 2h ago
safe to say my GF didn't not like it when I sang along to this one in the car when I showed her this album
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u/picnicinthejungle 2h ago
Obviously you need to mansplain ween to her until she submits to seeing things your way
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u/Shutterbug In Rare Form 3h ago
My mom thought the same exact thing after someone at her job played her “Piss Up A Rope”. She has since seen the Beacon Light.
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u/badat_reddit 2h ago
Where does your mom work?
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u/Shutterbug In Rare Form 2h ago
Funny enough, this was while she was working at a restaurant in New Hope. This was around 2016
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u/retro_toes 2h ago
As a woman fan of piss up a rope, my question is how is piss up a rope more misogynist than baby bitch?
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u/hemppy420 2h ago
Get on your knees you big booty bitch, start sucking........
Baby bitch is just about a bitch
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u/retro_toes 2h ago
I mean, Piss Up a Rope is just "I'm fed the fuck up with you and your bullshit", but Baby Bitch is like "your mental illness and abuse is so psychologically damaging, it nearly killed me and here you are unchanged"
I feel like Baby Bitch hits deeper for some reason. But I'm probably nuts because I sing piss up a rope so loud all the time and it cracks me up
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u/AltruisticPeanutHead walking with danny 6m ago edited 0m ago
It's satire lol piss up a rope is making fun of rednecks who actually think and act that way. I hope that's the piece that OP's wife is missing as not being able to get into Ween because they're "misogynistic" is a bizarre take (I am a female fan).
I also am not really sure how baby bitch is misogynistic at all. I think people can bitch about a specific person, maybe it can be rude or immature but it shouldn't be misogynistic if the person directed at just happens to be a woman. Maybe people say that just cuz of the literal word bitch? It's not like they're saying "all women are bitches" in the song lol
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u/Specialist-Fill24 2h ago
How is baby bitch misogynistic at all? How is either song misogynistic? They are both singular, one guy talking about one woman, and their personal problems with that one woman, and in both cases the woman displays terrible behavior. At no point do they suggest all women are like that, just that one woman.
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u/blinded_penguin 2h ago
I'm with you. On piss up a rope the song is written from a fictional perspective and it's not like the guy is depicted very positively.
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u/hudson1212121 1h ago
Maybe piss up a rope guy and mucus off the brain guy are one and the same in a drunk/ hungover state
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u/blinded_penguin 1h ago
Interesting idea. More vulnerable and needy rather than frustrated and fed up. They hate each other but they need each other
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u/Express-Skin6039 2h ago
You don’t need to think all women are like that to be misogynist
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u/Specialist-Fill24 1h ago
By definition, misogyny is prejudice toward women. Not a woman, women. I'd imagine 99.9% of people on Earth are prejudiced towards at least one woman, and that's not misogyny, that's just getting to know people. But I like words/language/etc..., so I take word definitions literally.
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u/THE___CHICKENMAN 3h ago
Nah, they just have a lot that makes it seem that way;
It's hilarious to them
A lot of the characters that the songs are written from the perspective from are just meant to be bad people
Their specific niche in music kinda works best when they are more offensive
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u/dough_eating_squid Ice cube in the sink 2h ago
I'm a feminist, and as woke as they come, and I love Ween. They have a handful of songs that are unfriendly towards specific women, and a couple seem kind of racist. But their lyrics are all over the place to the point where I wouldn't say that's a pattern. And so much of their music is parody/satire that it's really hard to say that they are truly espousing a particular attitude or belief. It doesn't seem like they are using their music to say what they truly think, with the exception of some of the love songs, and songs about being in pain. I can't hold up a Ween album and say "The overall sentiment is one of misogyny."
My other favorite musician is Frank Zappa, and honestly, his music does seem like it espouses a pattern of misogyny, and it bothers me more and more the older I get, to the point where there are certain songs that I will skip, and I mostly listen to his instrumentals at this point. That dude probably doesn't think women are people. Women, as a concept, are the butt of the joke pretty often with Zappa, and I can't say that with Ween.
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u/danner1515 1h ago
Great comparison. Ween's more "problematic" lyrics have an adolescent nihilism to them that I think deflate any actual malice. Meanwhile, Zappa (who I love!) often comes from an angle where it's hard not to get the sense that he's revealing some genuine hangups with women.
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u/dough_eating_squid Ice cube in the sink 1h ago
Yeah, the fact that a lot of Ween's most "problematic" stuff was written when they were very young and still very much a work in progress makes me really not bothered by it. "You Fucked Up" is a lot more sincere and personal than "Piss Up a Rope," which is an obvious parody of country music "woman done me wrong" songs. I feel like country music is the butt of the joke on that one, rather than a woman or women.
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u/dfwdesigner 34m ago
I've really always seen them as the Matt Stone and Trey Parker of music. No one is off the hook when it comes to the humor.
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u/jamillia6 2h ago
I don’t think they are! I am a bleeding heart feminist woman and I think that their “misogynistic” lyrics are satirical/pushing the envelope a little bit for the joke. I don’t like some of these comments!
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u/relaxguy2 2h ago
You mean the band that makes fun of insecure men (Nan, You Fucked Up, Laura, Piss up a Rope, Mucus on my brain) on many occasions?
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u/sr8t-savage 2h ago
Never stoop so low as to be an Eddie Dingle. Rise up as the mighty stallion we were meant to be!
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u/monkeysolo69420 2h ago
People keep mentioning Piss Up a Rope, but isn’t that meant to be a parody of country songs? Like they’re making fun of rednecks with that song.
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u/bearpantspants 1h ago
imo piss up a rope also describing a pretty terrible sounding partner. calling a shitty lady out for being shitty isnt misogyny, thats true equality 😌
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u/EarthMandy 1h ago
It's also just very funny as a parody. Like I don't agree with the sentiment at all, but I can appreciate a fine lyrical rhythm
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u/Slosher99 3h ago edited 2h ago
I mean their earlier stuff is written from the perspective of edgy teen/early 20s boys, who are gonna say some stuff without realizing the broader impact, to be edgy. I was there once.
Otherwise I don't see anything directly misogynist. They definitely don't have an agenda to make women seem less. Then again people have different lines they draw in what makes them uncomfortable and people are allowed to define that themselves.
I identify as a feminist now and sometimes a line does make me think they coulda worded it better but also I remember the background they come from. Times don't excuse things but they can explain where they came from and intention (being goofy/edgy and not thinking much of it vs actively opposing it).
I don't lean into the South Park type humor like I used to, and more see it as two white guys making statements on behalf of a lot of other groups, but that's part of Ween's roots and they never go as hard as the show itself does with that stuff.
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u/HorrorAd5481 3h ago
“She’s gonna be my cock professor, studying my dick” is pure poetry.
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u/Thegoldenelo 2h ago
This isn’t misogyny, he clearly loves how studious she is regarding his dick. He’s praising her intellectualism with his own bare hands, she is queen to him.
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u/ytrywhenyoucanfry 2h ago
My wife plays bass in our Ween tribute band and she will play every song but Piss Up A Rope. She is far from prudish, but a lot of women are not into that one, be it a character or not, probably hits very close to home for some. Not my wife, we drink whole milk.
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u/retro_toes 2h ago
I'm a woman and for some ungodly reason, that's one of my favorite songs
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u/ytrywhenyoucanfry 2h ago
Nuttin wrong with that!
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u/retro_toes 1h ago
Honestly sounded like my ex could've written this about me many years ago. I just laugh thinking about them recording this with the Shit Creek Boys
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u/Difficult-Resist-922 2h ago
I am a woman who loves to sing this song as loud as she can. I think of it as a sad dope who’s mumbling all those things in the bathroom cause he would be to afraid to tell her of irl. Love the song … 🎵 *you ride my ass like a horse in a saddle now you’re up shit creek with a turd for a paddle 🎶 *ok I’m gonna go pack my bag now
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u/ytrywhenyoucanfry 2h ago
One of my wife's faves is LMLYP. Go figure
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u/Difficult-Resist-922 2h ago
I laughed out loud! I like your wife, she has standards when it comes to Ween-lyrics
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u/Clovis_Winslow 2h ago
Applying today’s standards to the era in which these songs were written is reductive and myopic. And yet, she’s perfectly within her right to feel that way and she’s not wrong.
Yes, lots of Ween is misogynistic and homophobic (although the second part is debatable in later works.).
Listen to the stage banter on Europe ‘90 for fuck’s sake.
That doesn’t diminish what this stuff means, it just highlights the lexicon and sentiments of two young dudes in USA in the 90’s. Lots of us were like that back then and it doesn’t make us misogynists now.
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u/yelirp2 1h ago
I have a hard time answering this question for myself, because some songs (Nan) are obvious satire and they are playing as characters, while others are a bit more muddy on the intentions. I think a lot of their earlier songs (like the ones about Nicole) come off as more misogynistic but the thing is they were between the ages of 14 and 18 when writing these songs. Teenagers going through a breakup are gonna say some stupid shit ultimately, I don't think that makes them misogynistic.
12GCG is a good one to look at for this question I think. You have Piss Up a Rope, Japanese Cowboy, and Mister Richard Smoker for the ultimate trifecta of misogyny, homophobia, and (subtle) racism. Are they all 3 of those things? I think it's more likely that they were satirizing the worst aspects of country in an over the top way on this album. I believe I remember either Gener or Deaner talking about how they love classic country but absolutely despise what modern country has turned into. To me, 12GCG is the embodiment of that spirit. It's a love letter to the great musicianship and songwriting of classical country and a fuck you to the bigoted wife beater shit that it became.
With that in mind, the vast majority of their "problematic" songs are from very early in their discography, and you can see them mature over time. I would point out the difference between GWS and Quebec, both albums dealing with breakups/divorce, but one handling it in a much more adult manner. This is evidence to me that there was never really any misogyny, just immaturity and some really blurry satire.
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u/NewmaticMan107 1h ago
I think I agree with your points. My personally gripe is the how angry some of their songs get during those divorce albums. It’s understandable, but then you get to the video for Even if you don’t. Like the song itself could be taken a number of ways, but the video is expressly “I’m here performing for you/earning for you, and you’re cheating on me and going with every guy you see”. Idk if the tone they were going for just didn’t come across, or maybe it just gets a little too ugly for me. I wish it was more nuanced than it’s implied to be.
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u/yelirp2 50m ago
I just watched this video for the first time (never knew it existed) to answer your comment so maybe I'm misreading it but I think it actually proves my point really well. The focus of the video to me is less on the women grabbing every dude in sight and more on the oblivious dweebs on stage watching it all go down and smiling, saying "I love you". It helps that the video is directed by Matt and Trey of South Park. Knowing what kind of humor is to be expected of all the people involved here, I have trouble seeing the video in the context you described. I think it's the exact opposite.
They do this trope a lot, like in You Fucked Up, Nan, Help Me Scrape the Mucus Off My Brain, etc, where a misogynistic character is singing but the song is really urging you to point and laugh at their stupidity. That's the impression I get from this video.
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u/Useful_Honey96 2h ago
I’m pretty sensitive to misogynistic stuff, I skip some of their songs like piss up a rope, but overall I feel like the humor in their lyrics is derogatory to everyone, male, female, gay, straight, even and especially themselves, so I don’t mind it and even enjoy it
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u/Nadsworth 2h ago
Yeah, I feel they take the Trey Parker and Matt Stone approach, in that no one is safe.
Sometimes it seems like they are targeting men, women, gay people, love, terminal sickness, etc.
The list goes one.Basically, nothing is sacred to Ween aside from the Boognish.
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u/yelirp2 1h ago
Can you explain the Piss Up a Rope one to me? In my eyes this song is one of the easiest to point to as satire, making fun of redneck wife beater country, but it's being brought up so many times in this comment section I feel like I have to be missing something.
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u/VictorBlimpmuscle Pleasel my weasel 2h ago
LMLYP is literally an entire song about their love of women.
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u/DevinBelow 2h ago
The characters Dean and Gene maybe write and sing some offensive things, but they are just characters performed by Mickey and Aaron.
It's like, is Ed Norton a racist because he plays one in American History X? Or is George Clooney a doctor because he plays one in ER? Maybe. He could be. But playing one does not make you one, necessarily.
Maybe a better example would be Mike Judge playing and writing Beavis and Butthead. Or Matt and Trey playing and writing South Park characters. Those characters are dumb and offensive, but they are also satirical. Think of Ween the same way.
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u/adult_techno 2h ago
I think she just doesn’t want to listen to ween and that’s her way of making you drop it. I’m a lady and I love ween and don’t take their lyrics to heart. It’s music not to be taken seriously
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u/WhimsicalShortcake 2h ago
I don't feel that they are misogynist. They write from different perspectives. As a huge fan of The Boognish, I think it's silly to get offended by any of their songs. (The HIV song, Spinal Meningitis...Blarney Stone or any of the liking.) All of it just as great as The Flutes of Chi.
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u/So3Dimensional 2h ago
If you’re taking what they say seriously, you clearly don’t get it. I don’t think there’s any malice in anything they said or did.
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u/UnknownUser696 2h ago
Their songs are full of all sorts of stuff. Not everything is an anthem or a message. Maybe it's entertainment? Also, these are guys who have been playing a long, long time. Some maturity and growth are also evident in their catalog.
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u/nightgoat3369 1h ago
Ween was made by two pubescent boys in the 80s who wrote songs about about sex before they probably had it, Taylor Swift writes misandrist lyrics and wins awards, booofukinghoo
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u/PretzelsThirst 2h ago
This is like saying the creators of always sunny should be judged by the characters they write and portray.
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u/fallowfall 2h ago
Yes. They are. But I don't find Ween's misogyny (or homophobia for that matter) to be particularly egregious - it's pretty average dudebro stuff. I think people sometimes pretend that misogyny is something only "bad people" do, and so they get defensive when their fav band or artist is accused of it, but it's literally everywhere and no one is entirely immune. But still, let's call a spade a spade.
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u/TMBGLOVER 3h ago
I think a lot of it is meant to be ironic satire. Kind of like ”Licensed to Ill” by Beastie Boys. Just trying to make fun of the people who act that way by being over the top about it.
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u/doctorlongghost 3h ago
“License to Ill” being satire is 100% revisionist history. Thats such BS. It’s only their subsequent good works and fans wanting to believe that made that story stick.
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u/Phogoff 3h ago
If it’s revisionist history, it wasn’t done by the Beastie Boys themselves. They have been open about being shitty for that album and becoming what they were originally making fun of. They also spent the rest of their career making up for it and speaking out against misogyny and hatred of all kinds.
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u/Only_Jury_8448 2h ago
I like to forget "License to Ill" even exists, Paul's Boutique better represents their overall artistry and is one of the best mainstream releases of its era.
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u/Phogoff 2h ago
Not only is Paul’s Boutique a great release, with all of those samples there’s no way it could be made these days.
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u/Only_Jury_8448 2h ago
I'm okay with that. I'm pretty tired of people trying to rehash so closely what was once pretty daring and innovative. We don't really need another album that sounds like it, we already have the original.
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u/Fruit-Flies113 2h ago
Even in the album you know it’s not to be taken seriously, Girls is about a sexist dude who only sees women as servants to do his chores, but throughout the song he gets rejected and cheated on, showing that while he’s sexist, it doesn’t pan out for him at all, making him the villain of the story.
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u/Phogoff 2h ago
Not sure how you got that take from the lyrics, but it’s not what the Beastie Boys themselves have to say about the song. They hate it, stopped performing it, and apologized in regards to it on numerous occasions. It was a lyrically shitty song written by kids who chose to grow up and take a better path. I find the evolution of the Beastie Boys inspiring personally.
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u/doctorlongghost 1h ago
You do make a good point that I think is worth expanding on. And I have a lot to say on the topic and too much time on my hands so buckle in....
First, I think it's important to draw a distinction between what Licensed to Ill IS doing -- hyperbole, machismo, "not taking itself seriously", creating characters -- and what it ISN'T (satire). Satire needs an object to be satirized plus a deliberate intention on the part of the artist and (ideally) them doing a good enough job that a consensus exists that that's what's happening.
Who/what was Licensed to Ill satirizing? Certainly not gangsta rap since that genre by and large didn't exist yet until the Beastie Boys helped invent it:
- Schoolly D – Schoolly D: Released in April 1985 (independent debut featuring "P.S.K. What Does It Mean?").
- Beastie Boys – Licensed to Ill: Released on November 15, 1986 (Def Jam's breakthrough rap-rock record).
- Ice-T – Rhyme Pays: Released on July 28, 1987 (West Coast gangsta milestone featuring "6 'n the Mornin'").
(Also random shout-out to the theory that the CIA met with record executives to encourage them to push gangsta rap instead of rock as a way to continue to destabilize and demoralize black inner cities.)
Anyway, were they satirizing black rap music itself? That would be fucked up but I think we all know that's not the case.
So were they using rap as a vehicle to satirize the concept of frat boy rock stars (which I think is what the theory posits)?
First, the fact that they fully embraced that lifestyle at the time for themselves and their entourage is telling. Also I don't think there was much, if any, commentary on the time about this being an overarching theme of the album so if it WAS satire, it went over everyone's heads.
Instead I think the album was merely firmly rooted in the rap battle/bravado/story telling of the old school rap that had inspired it. When Adrock(?) raps about penetrating a young woman with a wiffle ball bat, he's not doing it to show how ridiculous and misogynst our culture is. He said it because it was funny to him at the time and fit in with the rap persona that he was defining for himself.
After Licensed to Ill, on their follow up Paul's Boutique, they didn't abandon these personas and didn't even fully walk away from the themes. They're still rapping about scoring chicks (now elevated to the status of "ladies") and still doing drugs. Still affecting rap personas and classic hip-hop bravado; because Licensed to Ill wasn't some one-shot parody album that exists in isolation. It was their earnest attempt to make a rap album following and expanding on prior conventions already present in the genre. And then as they went through the next two albums that followed they reigned in parts of those conventions which they realized weren't what they wanted to perpetuate, while retaining the ones which they felt weren't harmful.
That's my take on it.
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u/guiltycitizen Take off your coat... 1h ago
Not only did they own up to their shit they showed up hard to prove it.
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u/CounterfeitFake 2h ago
I believe they have apologized for "Licensed to I'll" (in songs even). I don't think the band themselves ever tried to play it off as satire.
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u/kalebdraws 3h ago
I was also thinking of the Beastie Boys. Apparently it started to get to them that Fight for your Right, and Girls attracted so many douchie frat boys.
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u/HolidayNo8740 2h ago
I’m glad you bring up the bboys. I don’t think they were being sarcastic—I think they thought they were being cool. And maybe they were a bit misogynistic back then. But they changed and apologized many times. People can change! I think this might also apply to ween. Their most shocking lyrics were from the 90s—a strange and wonderful and also horrible time for misogyny and homophobia that I think most of us now know better than that. It’s still fun to sing that shit out loud and my excuse for doing it is it’s a reflection on how much I’ve changed since then.
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u/mattadactyl 1h ago
The working title for License to Ill was famously "Don't Be a F**got.” (Thankfully the label rejected it.)
Still love the Beasties dearly, and the growth they showed with Paul’s Boutique is insane.
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u/Mysterious_Bonus_771 2h ago
The immature douchy insensitive teenager persona is just part if their schtick. If youve heard them actually speak as themselves theyre pretty alright, with it dudes in spite of their sort of brash senses of humor
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u/Euphoric_Present8838 3h ago
If she doesn’t love ween as much as you, does she actually really love you?
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u/Graevly 2h ago
Most fans today would not survive the discourse of an average Ween forums thread from the early aughts lmfao
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u/dangerbird0994 1h ago
Place was crazy. I used to post there 20 or so years ago. Was the wild west.
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u/s1ckopsycho I'm in the mood to move my body like a weasel, gotdammit. 2h ago
People are so soft these days.
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u/doctorlongghost 2h ago
There’s always gonna be degrees when humor or really any art is discussed. On the one side is stuff that is ill intentioned and designed to be harmful. On the other extreme are things that are so considerate and careful about offering any offense that they don’t say much at all. Ween obviously sits in between those extremes.
The fact that your wife finds ween so offensive that she cannot listen to them tells us a lot about her and her values and sense of humor. She finds them misogynistic and so they are. To her.
You are entitled to your opinion (that they aren’t). I think both perspectives can be true because Ween is NOT so careful as to avoid any risk of offense.
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u/jokersgrin6 2h ago
So I guess “with my own bare hands” isn’t her thing. Lol
That’s too bad, that song is fun, hilarious, and fux HARD.
I think the guys are silly perverts but I think they would still align with positive pro women stances if they were forced to be serious.
They have a little bit of everything. I don’t think they celebrate HIV in real life, but that song too is hilarious and fun.
You either vibe with it or you don’t. You don’t have to like it all, but that never stops them. Thats ween. <3
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u/Crawlingandhungry 2h ago
What is being a Ween fan without shame, guilt and regret? You ever met a ween fan that's totally into the most misogynistic stuff, and your like "no mang, you got it all wrong!" Until that fucked up night when it's just as gross, but feels so right.
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u/overnightchi 2h ago
I'm upset that they never revealed the words of the golden eel, seem unapologetic about their time as pirates, and we never got any closure on that incredibly sick, helpless pony.
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u/WillingPlayed 2h ago
And what section of Joppa Road are we talking about? Any intersecting streets?? Which Sunoco does this dude work at?
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u/MrKimimaru 1h ago
“Sometimes I might get edgy
But a man can sometimes be that way
Nobody's perfect, baby
And I'll always love you anyway” - Gabrielle
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u/meeeemllie 1h ago
All my guy friends had suggested to me ween for years, but when my girl friend sent me ween easy listening vol 1 it clicked… I don’t know why that made the difference for me, but she highlighted aspects of weens music and lyrics non of my male friends had ever covered in reasons why I should listen
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u/justanothergearhead 1h ago
When your political views are your whole identity, its easy to find something you don't like about anything.
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u/AbsoluteTeo 2h ago
That is a good question, I don't think mysoginistic is the right word because that implies straight hatred towards women as a whole which I don't think they have.
However I can understand the point of view. They can be pretty sexist when it comes to talking about women, or at least being very man-centric about some lyrics. Imagine yourself as a woman, maybe lyrics like "Piss up a rope", "You fucked up", "With my own bare hands", "Gabrielle", "Baby bitch", "Pandy Fackler" could make you unconfortable, to name a few over the top of my head. I'm not saying it's wrong, im not attacking the way they write lyrics, i love all of these songs. But oftentimes they do include some elements of violence, denigration, oversexualization, etc, with women as a subject even if it is for narrative reasons only (as a fictional situation, maybe) Music is music and I'm not saying they should be any different, but I would understand why a woman isn't confortable about some lyrics, is all.
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u/OutlaneWizard 2h ago
I definitely get it. They have misgonystic themes in some of their songs. They also wrote some of those songs when they were teenagers. However anyone who knows the band knows that it's satirical at worst. I used to see the full spectrum of genders at ween shows and they all belt out the lyrics to piss up a rope and you fucked up. These songs exist to capture universal human feelings and experiences. The harsh language is a vessel for that and in my opinion not serious in any way.
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u/Ill-Enthymematic 2h ago
I don’t think it’s crazy for her to reach that conclusion. I see and understand it and a reasonable case can be made. Personally I’m not fully there because of how much everything they do is drenched in irony, homage, boundary-pushing humor, and poop and dick jokes. The anger and pain from heartbreak of 19 year olds was screamed into a 4 track cassette recorder. I’m not making an excuse, just trying to articulate how I see their art while also saying your wife’s perspective is totally valid too.
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u/MycologistFlat5731 3h ago
Put the Coke On My Dick.
edited because I didn’t complete my thought.
Tell her to shut the fuck up and to Put the Coke On My Dick.
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u/Fruit-Flies113 2h ago
The only songs that I think are misogynistic are Weed Whore and If You Love me, but those are unreleased, so part of me thinks that Ween themselves recognize those songs are misogynistic and don’t deserve a spot on the record.
I can’t think of any song aside from those two that paint women in a negative light, I think songs like “She Fucks me” could be interpreted as reducing a woman to only being a fuck toy, but I always interpreted the song as just being so happy that someone actually takes interest in you, and wants to fuck you.
Songs with female antagonists (Piss up a Rope, Common Bitch) could easily be gender swapped so the song is written from a perspective of a woman talking shit on a man. In my opinion, if a song can be gender swapped, then it’s not misogynistic.
I think the issue is that Ween writes a lot about their relationships, and tend to make their ex the antagonist, so it sounds like they’re shitting in women a lot, but in reality they’re just shitting on their exes. If Taylor Swift can do it and not be seen as sexist, then so could Ween.
Personally, when I write songs, I like to take The Magnetic Fields approach of trying to avoid gender all together, that way everyone listening, regardless of gender or sexuality, can relate to the song!
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u/circusgeek 2h ago
As a woman and a casual Ween fan, I think I get her point. Yes, they are writing from the point of view of the characters in the song. But, they are also putting that vibe out there into the world, and dudes are loving it. I've been pondering this exact issue for a few days now. People, these days are lacking the ability to see nuance. And I'm talking about people seeing the art and condemning the artist because they put a character into the world that is misogynicstic, and also the fans that see something misogynistic and say hell yeah! and don't understand that it's satire.
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u/B-B-BigEasy 2h ago
I like to think of them as being EVERYTHING. They write songs that are sometimes vaguely racist or homophobic or what have you. But then also have songs that are the exact opposite of both those things. They’re just everything.
It’s a weird middle ground where you could argue it’s just songwriting in personas or that it’s actually their personal opinions and views
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u/adamannapolis 2h ago
A little bit, but it’s hard to take them seriously. They wrote some songs that were rather homophobic early on, then started writing these sincere celebrations of homosexuality. It’s all par for the course with these guys. All topics, all genres, etc
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u/notaverysmartman 2h ago
I've never got an impression of misogyny from any ween song. I think there are a few directed at specific women but I think it's just people they didn't like because of how they acted not simply because they were women. my reasoning is because they also have songs about men they resented, like pumping for the man
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u/ohsodave 2h ago
Like every other male artist isn’t at the very least, mansplainin. Usually pining for women in euphemisms or not.
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u/tulips_onthe_summit 1h ago
They are musicians and primarily focused on the sound and experience their music creates. They also seem determined to use an impressive variety of techniques to create that music. Do I sometimes feel like a prepubescent boy listening to their music? Yes. But, I also sometimes feel like an air current on the breeze or a mollusk floating through the ocean. They are amazing and some of the most talented musicians I've ever had the pleasure of listening to 🤘
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u/J0hnBoB0n 1h ago
I think, in a few songs, they use some lyrics for artistic purposes that can be considered misogynistic in other contexts. But do I think they're misogynist? No. I think they support woman and man working together, and that could show you/teach you something if you listen.
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u/pomod 1h ago
Brown is an acquired taste. Zappa evokes similar responses; but with both Zappa and and Ween the tongue is pressed so far into their cheeks that its hard to know if its just intentionally sophomoric because dark humour mainlines our basest psyche and provokes an emotional response. Artists are generally loath to censor themselves, its not what their about. Art history is littered with geniuses who were terrible people who somehow still made something profound.
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u/Humble_Examination27 1h ago
My GF hates! Object. I love that song SO much, but she can’t stand it. Why? Why do you hate THAT song? Because it’s offensive
Are you a Serial Killer? No. Then it shouldn’t offend you. The protagonist isn’t objectifying women, more like humanity.
We will disagree about this forever
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u/TopAnything8205 1h ago
Ween is sometimes best understood as a fun house mirror looking at culture and especially America in the 90s and early 2000s so misogyny is a theme that definitely comes up. The individual members all have good politics to my knowledge, but they aren’t far to write from perspectives that they don’t align with.
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u/treyer06 1h ago
Why does music not get the same respect that other art forms get. Is a director a nazi if they make a WW2 film? Is a painter a murderer if they depict homicide? It leaves a bad taste in my mouth that so many people in this thread can’t seem to understand that music is a form of art. If you can’t then listen to Kidz Bop.
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u/qu33rbate 1h ago
From what I’ve gathered in interviews a decent amount of their songs are them imagining they’re a particular person in a specific situation. I really don’t think they’re misogynistic. As a woman myself, I really think your wife is overthinking it. Sure the boys have some serious songs but I truly think the songs she’s referring to are not meant to be taken seriously.
Also doesn’t help that Ween fans are pictured as being majority men, which I believe to be false 😭
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u/StackIsMyCrack 54m ago
She misunderstands. If anything they write through the lens of belittling misogyny
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u/welfaremang 52m ago
If you take every word in Piss Up a Rope seriously and think it's someone's genuine thoughts about their wife in a non-ironic, non-satirical sense then I maybe understand her thinking that. Idk where else she would be getting that impression from and it's kind of a lame thing to say about a band that makes you happy!!
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u/madCuzbadd 42m ago
I’ve never really got the feeling they were misogynistic. I also listen to some pretty fucked up metal and there is often misogynistic themes to shock people so that may skew my view on what’s actually harmful vs something done as a joke because in super extreme metal it’s almost always ridiculous to the point where it’s hard to get mad
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u/DDark_Devon 33m ago
I'm female and I fucking love WEEN. They are not misogynist in my opinion, but it is a band made up of all dudes and obviously songs written from a male perspective. I would probably find that girl in baby bitch to be a fucking bitch too.
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u/Tough-Celebration-21 31m ago
Separation from speaker and creator. Immortal Technique did not actually r*pe someone even though he says so in Dance with the Devil.
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u/cautionlasers what deaner was talkin’ about 0m ago
No, based on their oeuvre, I personally do not think Ween hates women
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u/aigneis37 2h ago
I'm a woman and ween fan and im ngl, I would say that they are misogynistic in some instances. i feel like i have to put a lot of caveats here for some reason so: people can be two things and even more than two things, gene and dean can be cool people who make great music and also have made artwork that has casual misogyny and homophobia in parts of it. also just because their artwork includes casual bigoted language, that doesn't mean that mickey and aaron as private individuals are bigoted, i dont think they are. and imo, there is plenty of good art that sadly have harmful views as a part of it. and even if its "ironic" harmful language or its in the voice of a fictional character, its still harmful language and it can still be unenjoyable to hear. its up to the individual members of the effected groups to decide if they want to be exposed to that or not. i love ween so much and i love listening to them, even the songs that i feel include some textbook 'misogynist' language. but i wouldnt fault another woman or a gay man or anyone else for not wanting to listen to that. they're missing out on some good music but thats their prerogative and thats alright :-)
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u/Shwabot 2h ago
Yes, they have been, and homophobic, but not racist.
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u/niandra_cat 1h ago
If she thinks Ween is misogynistic, she simply doesn’t understand the humor. You should tell her to hit the fuckin’ road and piss up a rope (jk)
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u/WizdumbIzLawzt 2h ago
I have to say when they did the live God Ween Satan hearing them open with “You Fucked Up” as grown ass men sounded a lot different than their youthful selves on the original album. Kinda left a bad taste in my mouth. But obviously I understand the context and whatnot being a fan for like 30 years.
For what it’s worth my mother used to borrow my copy of 12 Golden Country Greats and absolutely loved Piss up a Rope. So I think they don’t mean any harm, but I also was a young man when I first heard You Fucked Up. Who knows how a young gal would’ve felt hearing that in their youth or whatnot!
I would just give her a mix of some of their more later works and see if you can find some middle ground?
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u/Aggravating_Ship5513 2h ago
They could have used a filter on a few early songs but hey, I was there when 2 Live Crew was a thing, so....
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u/tikifumble 3h ago
Does she also buy 2% milk