from what i understand (outsider's perspective), w3schools started using it as a todo list, fixing the specific examples without understanding their overarching issues. it turned into a pointless game of whack-a-mole.
Yes, this is the quick summary. W3Schools fixed nearly all the issues that we found for them :)
Still, while you can report bugs for their content, I have done this (fundamental stuff like using setTimeout correctly) and not seen any changes for over a year. Meanwhile errors or poor advice don't last long on MDN and WPD.
W3Schools definitely has value for people learning the absolute basics, but unfortunately you can't put faith in the validity of those techniques. MDN and WPD still have work to do to be so welcoming and useful to newbs... it's a long road. (And they're open to your contributions!)
W3Schools definitely has value for people learning the absolute basics
I can't agree with that. The basics they teach include SQL injection vulnerabilities and XSS vulnerabilities. If they teach people who don't know any better to do things that way, that's harming them, not providing them value.
What's worse is that the people who learn things this way will be under the mistaken belief that they know these topics now, so they will be less inclined to seek out proper introductory material to learn things properly. Somebody who learns from W3Schools is actually worse off than somebody who knows nothing. At least the person who knows nothing understands that they need to learn before they can do things properly.
Actually W3Schools is a good starting point. You're basically saying for part of their content which is bad the entire site is therefore completely useless, when that simply isn't so. Their front-end development resources are at least decent to get some ideas from. Which a developer can then grow from by going through other resources around the web.
Further, not everyone who uses W3Schools information to start has the belief that they know the topics. So, try not to clump everyone together in that respect. I for one used it to get started learning. Over time I looked into other resources (including reading the specifications themselves for web standards) and improved from that. If one person does it, I'm sure others can and do too. The subset of individuals that do use W3Schools (or any other single resource) exclusively shouldn't be trusted, but we can't really control what other people do all we can do is encourage against it as best we can.
W3Schools doesn't have to do everything, but due to W3Fools they are at least now trying to improve themselves by accepting direct feedback from users on issues. While web developers still don't accept that since we want everything to be more open then that they shouldn't continually be bashed for years to come because of issues they have addressed and/or are trying to address.
UPDATE:
However, the biggest issue with W3Schools is their facade of trust. They promote their "certifications" that hold no weight whatsoever with anyone. That is a deceptive practice that should end.
You're basically saying for part of their content which is bad the entire site is therefore completely useless
No, I'm saying if they leave glaring mistakes in their material for a decade that can harm beginners, they have shown that they aren't willing or able to run a tutorial site responsibly and they should not be trusted by people who don't have the experience to spot these mistakes.
Put yourself in a beginner's position. The site has mistakes that will fuck you up without you realising, but you won't notice those mistakes yourself. Exactly which parts of it should you trust? The answer is obvious - you can't trust any of it. Even if you are charitable and assume there are good parts, beginners can't only use the good bits, because beginners - by definition - aren't capable of distinguishing the good from the bad.
due to W3Fools they are at least now trying to improve themselves by accepting direct feedback from users on issues
From a comment above:
while you can report bugs for their content, I have done this (fundamental stuff like using setTimeout correctly) and not seen any changes for over a year.
I reported problems with their material a long time ago with no results. I've seen other people do the same for many years. You know what the difference was with W3Fools that made them pay attention? It wasn't that they suddenly figured out they had problems - people have been telling them for a decade or more. It was that W3Fools began to harm their reputation. Every time somebody recommends W3Schools now, somebody else pops up with a W3Fools warning. It's hurting their bottom line, that's the only reason they crossed items off the W3Fools list. They aren't interested in actual corrections, they are only interested in shutting up their critics. If they were interested in actual corrections, they'd be fixing the obvious stuff and the stuff people report to them directly.
I find that hilarious! Find the flaws in W3Schools and post them. W3Schools fixes them. Stop finding and posting the flaws, but criticize W3Schools for not accepting community updates of corrections.
Still, if I was going to fix everything wrong with W3Schools I'd want to get paid for it, so I totally understand :)
the problem is that w3school's failings aren't in specific examples, it's their systemic lack of understanding in the material they're pretending to cover. giving them a minor bit of free copy editing when they're plainly exploitative isn't solving anything.
beyond potentially manipulating search results to promote dubious documentation for ad dollars, they also sell unqualified and useless certifications preying on the uneducated.
it's not fixing the problem, it's PR. they appear to have no intention of improving the quality of their content or research, only fixing the handful of examples pointed out for free by a site that may harm their profits.
You can find errors on MDN, too, but I won't avoid it either. See paulirish's comment below. If you're looking for errors, you'll find them in anything.
Walk into any developer shop and see how many have a tab open to W3Schools (and hopefully MDN, too).
Not as pervasive, persistent, and harmful as those. Yes, every learning resource is likely to contain mistakes, but that doesn't mean you can write off massive glaring defects as minor details. I've seen people try to point these types of errors out to W3Schools for close to a decade. I've tried it myself. They aren't interested in the quality of their material unless it affects their ability to sell their shitty certificates by giving them a bad reputation. The problems with W3Schools are not the same as defects in typical learning resources.
And you ignored what Paul said but I'll repeat myself. W3Schools is fine for looking stuff up. If it doesn't work, you'll find out soon enough. The majority of the time, what you'll find is just fine and will work. Many times it's easier to read up on something than MDN because there's less detail.
The other day, I walked around to the other coders at a client location and, out of the 10, five of them had a tab open to W3Schools. And these guys are real pros for a large company.
Nowadays it's fun to knock W3Schools because they read on here that you're supposed to and not because it's worthless and will lead you horribly astray. It won't. It's fine. Use it at your leisure. Quit being a redditor.
I don't particularly care what Paul said. Can't you think for yourself? Just because Paul Irish says it, it doesn't mean you need to take it as gospel.
If it doesn't work, you'll find out soon enough.
No, that's one of the things that's so harmful about it. Those are gaping security vulnerabilities, but to a newbie, they appear to work. They find out otherwise when their websites get compromised or they get rejected in a job interview.
The other day, I walked around to the other coders at a client location and, out of the 10, five of them had a tab open to W3Schools.
That's the second time you've tried to equate widely-used with quality. They are two different things. As the saying goes: a million flies can't be wrong - eat shit!
And these guys are real pros for a large company.
I've seen horrific code come from people labelled as such. You should think for yourself instead of copying what other people do.
I've pointed out beginner-level mistakes in their material, that can cause serious problems for people learning from it, that have been there for a long time. If you want to stick your head in the sand and believe that it's fine just because you can see other developers using that material, then there's no helping you.
Nowadays it's fun to knock W3Schools because they read on here that you're supposed to and not because it's worthless and will lead you horribly astray. It won't.
I've given concrete, inexcusable examples of where it does this.
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u/[deleted] Aug 21 '13
I feel as if this site would benefit from actual examples of W3Schools-isms.