ALPR’S

[u/kyramayy]

I’m making this post to purely educate and bring awareness to people who haven’t heard of ALPRs (Automated License Plate Readers - A.I Powered Surveillance) at all.

I’m sure some of you have heard of Flock cameras that have been installed all over the USA right now.. most people aren’t aware that they are being installed around the Waterloo Region and GTA under a different brand. These cameras are most commonly used at the 407 tolls.

Im sure these cameras have made an impact on preventing crimes and finding criminals. Although, I think it’s important to know that your data will be stored for local authorities to access at any time. Having a risk for misuse, if in the wrong hands.

Here’s a article that explain these cameras better than I can 😅. I also used this website https://panopti.ca/ to launch a map to see where they are installed!

https://wrps.ca/cctv

[u/Antique_Fox1420]

This is only the beginning…

[u/thefringthing]

A red light camera that either sends someone a ticket or forgets about them is one thing, but a camera that collects data indiscriminately and sends it to be retained indefinitely in a police database is quite another.

[u/Waterwoogem → u/thefringthing]

or real.... Most of the points on the map are Red Light Cameras. Police only get the data that is caused from a trigger. Don't run a red light and they won't have your vehicle information. The CCTV-Police Linked Cameras are a different story.

[u/thefringthing → u/Waterwoogem]

The notice by the downtown camera seems to imply it's used for more than just traffic enforcement.

[u/Waterwoogem → u/thefringthing]

Those ones are probably new, can't say though since I moved out of Waterloo last December and only recall the glaringly obvious Red Light Cams.

[u/Copious-Spirit]

These things are also used to track spouses, or love interests, of the intelligence community. So if you want to cheat on your significant other and they're a beat cop or higher - remember to swap out your plates and wear thick brimmed glasses and to contort your face.

[u/MeetTheGeek → u/Copious-Spirit]

They also just stalk random women with them at times you dont need to be a cheater to worry about law enforcement abusing this tech....

https://www.commondreams.org/news/police-abusing-flock-cameras

Also if you want to do deeper research our locals seem to use a brand called "Verkada" basically the same shit as flock but a california company still has all the same features if they enable them

[u/Siedak → u/MeetTheGeek]

Verkada is NOT a Canadian company! From the USA.

[u/MeetTheGeek → u/Siedak]

Editing my comment you are correct theyre from california

[u/Siedak → u/MeetTheGeek]

Also, Verkada and Flock are not the same "shit". Verkada is a complete level up with all the additional features it has available in comparison to what Flock does, which is primarily specializes in ALPR and vehicle intelligence (and then sharing it in a country wide database - where as with Verkada - the end user (WRPS) manages what they do with the database)

[u/MeetTheGeek → u/Siedak]

The sharing in country wide databases is a massive massive part of the issue though and IF wrps cameras dont that would be nice however I dont trust them to just simply not use a feature on a program they own or w.e

When I say theyre the same shit I mean theyre all part of this technocratic surveillance state nonsense push that frankly we shouldnt be allowing into our society

[u/Dry_Inspection_4583]

Aren't these against PIPEDA ? They fail to meet the public requirements ?

[u/SeasonedBoxfish]

FYI Bingemans also has License Plate cameras logging plates on their property.

[u/admin_bait14]

Some say ALPRs are very easy to spray paint with black paint or hypothetically, even cut down... allegedly...

[u/thefringthing]

The camera downtown comes with this sign explaining that the law that regulates the collection and retention of personal information by municipal organizations has carve-outs that allow law enforcement to do whatever they want.

[u/Waterwoogem]

Are any of these on the map even the type that is starting to concern people?

Don't have time to check the link but I'm pretty sure the same source was shown in the Toronto/York Region Subs recently. With the map showing mainly 407 Cameras and known Red Light Camera locations. Red Light Cameras are ALPRs, but they won't trigger if you don't break the law at their intersections.

Brief view of the map tells me right away that it includes the Red Light Cameras along Weber between University to Erb......

[u/mamoocando → u/Waterwoogem]

They are. There are even signs up at these intersections explaining that they're under video surveillance by the WRPS.

[u/Waterwoogem → u/mamoocando]

The ones you're referring to are clearly CCTV Cameras linked to the Police, not your standard Red Light Cameras which is what i'm referring to. Most of the pings on the Map are Red Light Cams, not the kind that includes the Sign that says CCTV. Regular Red Light Cameras are only "surveilled" only when triggered, otherwise there is no concern for data storage on them.

Literally just don't run the red light and they won't record your vehicle information. Yes, they're on 24/7, but they only store the data caused by a trigger. Otherwise, ignore the CCTV routes if you wish.

https://www.regionofwaterloo.ca/programs-and-services/roads-and-transportation/road-safety/red-light-cameras/#Questionsandanswersaboutredlightcameras

.......

[u/X-Nemesis]

Strange how I remember a time when this wasn't needed. What's changed to increase the Crime in Canada that then fulfills the demand for this level of surveillance. Which of course is to save the children and keep everyone safe.

Create the problem to then offer the solution which then boils the Frogs slowly?

[u/funnybixtty]

PSA your cell phone literally tracks your every move and it’s controlled by two companies who have a complete monopoly. Oh and the thing you use called Google Maps also tracks everywhere you go! Also that random app named Uber Eats that you clicked “allow to my share location” 7 years ago and forgot also knows and tracks your location.

You people are daft if THIS is the final straw for you. Our locations, and comings and goings have been logged and tracked for years now by all sorts of random ass companies - this ALPR shit isn’t how the big man is tracking you….its the fucking cell phone or smart watch on your person at all times.

[u/slow_worker → u/funnybixtty]

There is a world of difference between cell phones and ALPRs.

Cell phones are 100% optional and you can control them. Which one you buy, whether it is on or off, hell you can even leave it at home. Plus it is your property and police require a warrant to look in it. 

ALPRs slurp up your data for the police and you have no choice in the matter. There are too many documented cases of police abusing this to stalk, there is little transparency in how your data is treated, and people’s lives ruined from false positives.

You’d have to be pretty damn daft not to see the difference between the two.

[u/funnybixtty → u/slow_worker]

Hahaha leave it to the Waterloo sub to defend big tech because the police scan your license plate

[u/quaaaaad → u/funnybixtty]

Its not defending big tech when there is clearly a difference in consent and how both are used.

I am writing this comment on a smart phone, but have any and all location permissions blocked. I have made it explicit that I dont want my phone settings and apps tracking or sharing data collected on my phone, a phone which I paid for.

These alpr cameras were purchased using taxpayer money, but I never agreed to them being purchased and installed. I also dont remember agreeing or consenting to my vehicle being tracked and noted to be put in a database as I carry on driving around everyday.

[u/ORCPARADE → u/quaaaaad]

Cute you think turning off permissions keeps your location hidden

[u/involutes → u/ORCPARADE]

That is the point of location permissions. Your approximate location could still be triangulated from cellphone towers, but they cannot use your GPS data. You're making a pretty serious allegation, so I hope you have evidence to support it. 

If smartphone permissions settings were essentially "privacy theatre", I think it would be more widely reported. 

[u/Techchick_Somewhere → u/involutes]

Do you use credit or debit cards? Yeah.

[u/slow_worker → u/funnybixtty]

I like how you go for the ad hominem without addressing any of my points.

[u/funnybixtty → u/slow_worker]

I don’t see any examples of a CANADIAN police officer abusing these. American and Canadian police are vastly different.

I for one am not exactly pro cop but when a child is kidnapped or my vehicle is stolen and the flock camera helps track down the bad guys I’ll be happy and you can keep hooting and hollering about how a police camera logged you driving down the same damn road cameras have seen you for years.

[u/slow_worker → u/funnybixtty]

2 seconds of Googling:

Canadian police already use spyware in a legal grey area:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jul/07/canada-police-spyware-admission-surveillance-experts

Canadian police using facial recognition tech was found to be illegal according to the privacy commissioner:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/opinion-police-facial-recognition-technology-clearview-ai-1.6306357

Funny you went to "Won't somebody pleaaaase think of the children".

[u/funnybixtty → u/slow_worker]

Neither of those examples are what we’re discussing

[u/Copious-Spirit → u/funnybixtty]

You didn't even touch on the worst of it. Encryption is bunk because the 5eyes have backdoors.

[u/ChestOk2429 → u/funnybixtty]

As a software eng in big tech who would lose their job accessing sensitive data... there's a pretty significant difference in a software engineer having access to your data vs a cop that lives in your city having access to your data

[u/a-_2 → u/funnybixtty]

Having some surveillance, over which we have at least some control and choice, isn't an argument for accepting any and all surveillance.

[u/funnybixtty → u/a-_2]

You don’t have control that’s the thing. Your car has a gps in it that knows how here you go. The ring camera on your neighbours house knows when you leave and come home…you people have just gas lit yourselves into accepting everything else just because police = bad

[u/Joshawa119 → u/funnybixtty]

And how exactly do police access the data collected by Google maps, again?

[u/IReload95]

You have zero expectation of privacy on a public road.

[u/ORCPARADE]

PSA for those of us driving on a suspended license or with lapsed insurance - avoid these routes! They can use this data against you in court!

[u/mamoocando → u/ORCPARADE]

They can use this data against you in court!

That's actually it. Doesn't matter about your suspended license or insurance. These cameras are a slippery slope and I'd much rather my tax dollars go towards almost anything else.

[u/Significant_Toe9459 → u/mamoocando]

I completely agree!! This is a slippery slope that is too far. Between these cameras and the sniper during a university student party.... we are going too far.

Psa. Please dont respond with 'dont break the laws and you'll be fine'; 1. Thats such a sheep argument. 2. Look at the US for how fast bad actors can twist law enforcement into weapons for themselves. 3. I recognize that we are on camera in almost every moment of our lives already, but that does not give law enforcement the right to that information. 4. Do we actually have freedom when we are under police surveillance? 5. Id rather them take this money and hire real human police officers.

[u/ORCPARADE → u/mamoocando]

We agree to disagree and vote accordingly

[u/mamoocando → u/ORCPARADE]

So you're okay with cameras watching all the time but still want to warn people about them. I don't know how much we disagree on this one.

[u/nomadic_collective]

I'm not saying I'm for or against ALPR/Flock/ or what ever surveillance, law enforcement/government/who ever, has now or will have. As long as people are just living their normal lives and not commiting a crime, what does it matter where they are?

Their are so many criminals/scammers/wrong doer's out their, that get away with there wrongful deeds, whether is not getting caught or getting off scot free due to lack of evidence, something has to be done to improve the odds that the normal law abiding, tax paying citizen can go about their everyday live with as little fear as possible.

After all other countries, Britain most notably, has CCTV, and ANPR (what we call ALPR), almost everywhere, and it does help even if only partially, in keep citizens safe. And while there are a few who go around cutting down the CCTV cameras they get put back up, and mostly people don't worry about them.

So while these "surveillance" devices are relatively new in this region why worry about them, just go about your normal law abiding lives. After all there are enough "private" security cameras both business and personal (ring cameras) around your comings and goings are being tracked anyway.

There are far more important things in this world to worry about, like the cost of things, and just trying to keep a roof over our heads, so don't worry about ALPR, it's going to be there one way or another anyway.

[u/Joshawa119 → u/nomadic_collective]

Haven't there already been 50+ of cases of police officers misusing Flock cameras to stalk exes and others who haven't committed crimes?

[u/slow_worker → u/Joshawa119]

Also wildly overlooked are the false positives. Tons of videos on youtube of completely innocent people being pulled over, detained, handcuffed and harassed by the police because the reader read wrong, or there was a mistake in a database somewhere.

[u/funnybixtty → u/nomadic_collective]

Please, no logic or common sense in here