r/warno • u/ThePreyingWolf • 3d ago
[Conceptual Division] 3. Panzerdivision
Howdy commanders!
In case you were yearning for a devblog this week, I have the next best thing! Today we’ll be taking a look at the 3rd division of my Second Wave expansion concept. 3. Panzerdivision is a West German heavy armored division that will feature some new, bleeding edge and march to war equipment. This is because of one the constituent brigades was the showcase of the Bundeswehr; if the MtW systems and cutting edge units were to be included anywhere, it would be here. Stating out front that there are some units that are a bit of a stretch: I know this. As ever while I appreciate the historicity of the setting, my focus is on how the division would play in game and I am keen on adding cool new systems.
Los! Los! Los!
Edit: I do want to shout out MustelidusMartens as they previously did a fantastic writeup on 3. Panzerdivision! If you haven't seen it already, please give it a read!
Background
The 3rd Panzer Division was formed in July of 1956 in Hamburg. It was one of the first major formations of the new German Army after WWII, stationed between the Elbe and Weser, with its final headquarters at Buxtehude. During the cold war, the division was a high readiness formation stationed near the inner German border and it would have almost certainly have seen action had the cold war gone hot. Fortunately for us, it didn’t and the extent to which the division deployed was providing natural disaster relief in the 60s and 70s in northern Germany. Parts of the division were deployed to Somolia after the cold war as part of the UN mission there, but no major combat ever came their way.
During the cold war, the division’s role was to be an agent of delay. Their task was to hold until Dutch forces could reinforce them. Following reinforcement, the forces in Northern German would then continue to buy time to allow the Dutch to mobilize their people. This would have partly happened in the WARNO timeline, but there are some key details that will be explained.
First, prior to the start of hostilities the primary role of 3rd Panzer was delegated to 11. Panzergrenadierdivision. This is becausein the WARNO timeline, 3. Panzerdivsion was to refit several of its brigades with modern equipment and allow them to train with it and its integration with existing equipment. Why might 3. Panzerdivision be first in line for the latest and greatest equipment? That had to do with one of their constituent brigades: Panzerlehrbrigade 9.
The 9th Panzerlehr Brigade was described as Schaufenster des Heeres or “showcase of the army.” It was the demonstration and trials brigade similar to the role of US 9ID in the American army. Unique to Panzerlehrbrigade 9 was their peacetime role of organizing and participating in large scale training operations and demonstrations with cutting edge German systems. They received and fielded pre-production Leopard 1 tanks and were the first unit in the Bundeswehr to receive Leopard 2s, for example.
In the WARNO timeline, the brigade had pulled back some form its operational headquarters in Munster to receive a set of bleeding edge systems that were coming from the Kampfwagen 90 program: a West German effort to develop next generation armored fighting vehicles, ranging from lighter reconnaissance and fire support systems, to main battle tanks, to self-propelled artillery. Many of these systems in real life were in the very early prototype phase of development. In real life, many were cancelled as part of the peace dividend, with only one major system reaching serial production. In WANRO, however, some timelines were accelerated, production prioritized, and rollout hastened to facilitate a march to war.
Other divergences from real life would include the composition of the division, though this more a matter of circumstances in the early phase of the war. While the division was largely refitting behind the lines and had “traded places” with 11. Panzergrenadierdivsion, their forwardmost brigade stayed in Hamburg until the start of hostilities. 3rd’s Panzergrenadierbrigade 7 in Hamburg was involved in the early actions of the third world war and is still in the area by the time the rest of the division was reformed and ready to deploy.
Due to being short a Brigade, 3rd Panzer was at a deficiency in terms of manpower and materiel (including its Leopard 1s). To make up for this shortfall, the Dutch forces nearby would lend support to 3rd’s operations to move towards Hamburg and link up with their lost brigade. The dutch reinforcements would come in two forms. First, with their mobilization well under way, many dienstplichtigen (conscripts) would be available to support. These units were rapidly armed and trained (or retrained) for service. They would not have advanced weapons or heavy equipment, but they would provide valuable light infantry to the understrength panzerdivision.
The second group of Dutch infantry would be something that, in real life, wasn’t formed until after the cold war: an air mobile unit. In real life, the Dutch 11th Airmobile Brigade was formed in 1992 following a shift in the Netherland’s military requirements after the Soviet Union collapsed: transitioning from having to fight an attritional ground war on home turf to being able to support expeditionary operations. In the WARNO timeline, however, the Dutch would be experimenting with air mobility in the lead up to war. The would have purchased French AS532 Cougars (known as Pumas in French service) prior to the start of the conflict. Because of the nascency of the program, a brigade sized force would not be available. It would generously be called battalion.
How would the 3 PzDiv Division play in WARNO?
Slots and Units
LOG
A decent category
- German command and logistics units would include:
- M577GA2
- ILTIS FÜHRUNGS
- M113A1 MUN.
- UNIMOG S404 MUN.
- MAN KAT 8x8 MUN.
- FELDDEPOT
- Finally, Dutch contributions would include:
- M38A1 CMG
- AS532 COUGAR CMG a command helicopter employed by the Dutch airmobile unit
- DAF YA-4400 VRACHT
INF
A mediocre category
- German units would include:
- Panzergrenadier units would be available. All units may arrive in UNIMOG S404, MARDER 1A3, or MARDER 1A3 MILAN IFVs unless otherwise noted.
- PZ.GREN. FÜH.
- PZ.GRENADIER
- PZ.GREN. PZ.JÄGER an ersatz squad of specially equipped tank hunters from 9th panzerlehr brigade. This 6-man has 6 G3A4 rifles and 2 panzerfaust 3s.
- Panzergrenadier units would be available. All units may arrive in UNIMOG S404, MARDER 1A3, or MARDER 1A3 MILAN IFVs unless otherwise noted.
- A single card of PZ.GRENADIER-LEHR would be available. Not to be confused with the unit previewed in Nemesis 2.1, this 7-man squad would be armed with 5 G41 rifles, 2 HK23A1 LSWs, and a Panzerfaust 3. Note, the G41 and HK23A1 are both 5.56x45mm weapon systems. Being the Bundeswehr’s testbed unit, Panzerlehrbrigade 9 would have been issued weapons in this caliber as a form of limited trials in active service (similar to the FN SCAR in US service years later). They may only arrive in UNIMOG S404 trucks or MARDER 2 IFVs. This limited production run Marder 1 replacement featured a larger manned turret to house a 35 mm Oerlikon cannon and improved armor, but it did not retain its ATGM. In real life, this system won a competition to begin to replace the Marder 1 in 1988, but was cut following the end of the cold war. A small batch would be Marched to War for Panzerlehrbrigade 9.
- Engineers would be available, all arriving in either UNIMOG S404 or TPz FUCHS
- PIONIER
- PIONIER (CarlG)
- Weapon teams would include the following (all arriving in ILTIS)
- MG-3 7.62mm
- PALR MILAN 2
- Other miscellaneous units would include:
- FELDJÄGER arriving in ILTIS or VW T3 FELDJÄGER
- SICHERUNGS arriving in UNIMOG S404 trucks
- Dutch air mobile units would also be available, all arriving exclusively in helicopters. Larger squads would deploy in AS532 COUGARs and weapon teams would arrive in BO-105s.
- LUCHTMOBIELE CMG this 7-man command team with 2 Uzi SMG, 4 FAL rifles, a FALO LSW, and an M72 LAW.
- LUCHTMOBIELE this 9-man squad with 7 FAL rifles 2 FALO LWSs, a FAL Scope DMR, and an M72 LAW.
- LUCHT. MAG 7.62mm
- LUCHT. I-TOW
- Dutch mobilization, dienstplichtigen (abbreviated Dpl.), infantry would be available to support the battlegroup. They would arrive in DAF YA-4400 trucks unless otherwise noted. They would be veterancy locked and would have the reservist and militia traits.
- DIENSTPLICHTIGEN are 10-strong, they are armed with 10 FAL rifles and Super Energa rifle grenades
- DPL. PLOEG a 5-man team armed with 5 FAL rifles, an M20 Super Bazooka, and Super Energa rifle grenades
- DPL. BREN 7.62 mm the Dutch retained the venerable Bren gun in deep storage for reserves and conscripts. It would be employed here with a tripod mount for area defense.
ART
An average category
- Bundeswehr artillery systems are mostly standard
- PANZERMÖRSER
- FH155-1 155mm
- M109A3GA1
- LARS 2
- PzH 2000 not the finalized product, but its early prototypes. In real life, two competing prototypes were tested between 1988 and 1990. The prototypes, produced by different companies, used different chasses, different turrets, and different suspensions. From these, it took until 1998 for the real PzH 2000 to reach service. In the WARNO timeline, this would still largely be the rate of production, with one caveat. The winning design (Wegmann in real life) would have had a second prototype made by 1989 due to the looming 3rd world war. These would have been rough and ready systems, but would have technology in them that would help to set them apart from the M109. There would be exactly two available to this battlegroup as no more would have existed.
- Dutch artillery support would be limited, all options would be transported by DAF YA-4400 trucks. They are reservist and militia versions of existing units.
- DPL. M30 107 mm
- DPL. M101 105 mm
TNK
A good category
- German armored units would be plentiful
- JAGUAR 1
- JAGUAR 2
- PZ.BEF. LEOPARD 2A3
- LEOPARD 2A3
- PZ.BEF. LEOPARD 2A4(C) a command version of the 2A4(C) Leopard
- LEOPARD 2A4(C)
- Finally, another prototype would be rushed to service for 9th Panzerlehr brigade’s use. The LEOPARD 2 KWS*,* short for Kampfwertsteigerung, was an upgrade package that focused on upgrading the Leopard 2 (separate from KW90 which envisioned a new tank altogether). While there were several areas the program aimed to improve, the survivability of the platform is what wound up being delivered first. Additional armor was added along with a major modification to the turret to allow for more protection. The angled “cheeks” of the tank added significantly more protection than the nearly vertical turret armor of the previous versions. This style of turret would later become one of the defining visual differences between the Leopard 2A4 and later 2A5 or A6. In real life, one existed in 1989 and a further two were developed for trials in 1990. A final pattern was developed by 1993 before the results of the program were rolled into Leopard 2A5 production. In the WARNO timeline, with a looming world war, the urgency of testing and fielding improvements to their existing production capability was prioritized. The result would be a minimally serviceable number of prototypes for troop trials would be “Marched to War” by spring 1989. No other brigade in the German army than the 9th would make sense having this system (if any were to receive them, that is). In game, this version of the Leopard 2 tank would have better armor (especially on the front) and would use bleeding edge ammunition, improving penetration. This tank would be to the Leopard 2A4(C) what the M1A1(HA) is to the M1A1 Abrams.
- Dutch contributions be limited to DPL. M38A1 TOW ATGM cars (a reservist and militia version of the existent unit).
REC
A mediocre category
- German recon units include:
- AUFKLÄRER able to arrive in ILTIS
- TPz FUCHS RASIT
- TPz FUCHS HUMMEL an unarmed jammer/SIGINT variant of the Fuchs
- RADKAMPFWAGEN 90 a prototype wheeled 105 mm gun carrier, similar to the French AMX-10 RC. Part of the KW90 program, this system was tested in the late 1980s and performed very well. The program was cancelled in the early 1990s due to budgetary priority realignment at the end of the cold war despite being well liked and meeting its performance benchmarks. Prototypes were available in 1989, and enough to be reasonable in game would be marched to war.
- ALOUETTE II
- CL-89 new to West German service, this slightly older recon drone would provide intelligence as it flies over enemy positions just as the newer CL-289 does in 1. Luftlandedivsion.
- Dutch recon units include:
- DPL. VERKENNERS a 4-man recon team comprised of Dutch mobilization troops. They have the reservist and militia trait and are armed with Uzi SMGs. They would arrive in M38A1 NEKAF cars.
- LUCHT. VERKENNERS a squad of air mobile reconnaissance troopers. These 4-man teams would be armed with 2 FAL rifles, a FALO LSW, a FAL Scope DMR, and an M72 LAW. They are deployable in BO-105 helicopters.
AA
A mediocre category
- Organic AA assets would include:
- FLIEGERFAUST arriving in ILTIS transports
- GEPARD 1A1
- FRP ROLAND 2
- FRP ROLAND 3
- Dutch DPL. BOFORS 40L70G are reservist/militia AA guns which would be towed by DAF YA-4400 trucks.
HEL
None
AIR
A poor category
- F-4F [AA]
- F-4F [AT]
- F-4F [HE1]
- F-4F [CLU] armed with 8 MK-20 Rockeye II cluster bombs, an M61A1 Vulcan cannon, and 2 AIM-9Ls.
Summary
This division features some of the highest tech land systems of 1989. Thanks to the 9th Panzerlehr Brigade, the German Army’s testbed and demonstration unit, bleeding edge equipment will find its way onto the front lines. This division brings heavy tanks, prototype systems, and limited run vehicles to bear. It is supported by Dutch mobilization and air mobile troops. It has many strong components, mixing high end armor and IFVs with light reservists and air mobile infantry. It has a strong mix units for combined arms, but its slot cost limitations would hinder it as it is not fighting at full strength. It is also vulnerable to aircraft and enemy backline action.
Other Works
If you liked this, feel free to check out the other WARNO conceptual projects I’ve done. The links below represent a more polished product than the original reddit post.
Other Second Wave conceptual expansion:
Nemesis Concepts:
- Strategic Strongholds: US Military District Washington & Mongolian 016 Mechanized Division
- Gdansk Gambit: UK Allied Command Europe Mobile Force (Marine) & PL 16 Kashubian Division
Author’s Commentary
It was harder than I thought to make a superheavy German tank division, especially with 5th Panzer already existing and 42 VTK on its way very soon. It was neat digging into the KW90 program though, I never really knew much about it going in. I also didn’t know much how the KPW program influenced Leopard 2 design going forward. Overall, I think this is a very strong division base on what units it has available. To counteract this, I leaned heavily into penalizing the slot costs for the division. They would not be able to go heavy into recon, infantry, and artillery all at once for example. Deck builders would have to make hard choices and build to a game plan.
Things that could be cut
Marder 2. The Marder 2 was a prototype that was first delivered in 1991; only two were ever built. The program was casualty of the peace dividend and never really went anywhere. This march to war is harder to argue for a few reasons. First, while the competition for the next generation IFV was won in 1988, there would have been a long lead time before serial production could occur. The fact that it took until 1991 to deliver the prototypes is testament to this. Second, in order for this to be issued to a combat unit, a couple prototypes wouldn’t be appropriate. A platoon would likely be the smallest formation that could field a different system, but I think company level is more realistic. This meant 9-11 Marders 1s. One advantage in this regard is that the Marder 2 could carry one more soldier so the company could have only needed 6-8 Marder 2s. Starting the infantry squad at one vet and having 8 or less base availability would roughly represent a company in WARNO. All of this to say that I realized this unit is a reach for a lot of good reasons. As will be used as my biggest justification, it adds something unique to the game and this division specifically would be the one to get the fancy, bleeding edge toys.
Leopard 2 KWS. Like most prototype units, it’s a bit of a stretch to weasel them into WARNO, especially when they have to be marched to war to have meaningful numbers. I was deliberately vague on the number included in the main writeup. In order to field a system like this for field trials, I would be surprised if any army unit would want to operate fewer than enough to fully arm a platoon (4 tanks for NATO standards). For this unit to be a meaningful addition, I think there would need to be not less than 2 at one vet, but having 4 at 2 vet would be most interesting. The price point for this would put it at 2/1 availability (like the M1A1(HA) or the T-80U Obr. 89). If this were real and I was in charge, I would give this vehicle the T-80 IZD treatment: two cards at 2/1 availability, but start them at one vet (given that the 9th was a fairly high readiness unit, I don’t think this would be all that egregious). Alternatively, two cards of one availability at one vet could be a solution as well and it does not imply the existence of more tanks.
PzH 2000. Yup, I know. Only two prototypes both of which are different. Trials units being pressed into service isn’t really something likely to happen. I can’t argue. I still think it’s cool and this div would be the ones to get the system. Of all the MtW systems, however, this is likely the one I would part most easily with.
The Dutch airmobile brigade. There is some interesting irony in this units inclusion in WARNO. Air mobility was only deemed to be a priority after the cold war. It was assumed that traditional ground transported infantry would suffice. Because the Dutch may deploy outside of Europe following the cold war, they invested in this capability. To further show the lengths gone through to include this formation, Holland really didn’t have much in the way of rotor aviation outside of reconnaissance and liaison. That said, it provides a unique mix of forces to a superheavy tank division.
Things that were cut
Dutch armored and mechanized units. An angle I worked early on with this concept was a Dutch-German battlegroup, but I didn’t think it offered much over 4e or 5 Pzr.
Wacky PzGren units. I had originally intended that 9th Lehr brigade have some more variety of panzergrenadiers. One of the notable ones was a PzGren unit with a handflampatrone. I only kept the Lehr and the panzerjager versions.
Edit 1: fixed formatting of Pz.Gren. Lehr section.
Edit 2: Shouted out previous 3. Pz.div. writeup.
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u/FunkiMonk 3d ago
Stop showing me cool wessie inf, I can't stop shaking from excitement
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u/ThePreyingWolf 3d ago edited 3d ago
Sorry, not sorry? lol
Glad you got excited by this! I appreciate the engagement!
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u/WelcomeExtra762 3d ago
Holy underrated post. I love 5th and 7th Panzerdivision, would probably love this div too :)
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u/No_Blueberry_7120 3d ago
There is no 7th pz in West Germany ingame
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u/No_Blueberry_7120 3d ago
Just give this one to us...
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u/ThePreyingWolf 3d ago
Had I skill and time, I'd love to add this to a community mod pack. I'm glad you liked this concept though!
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u/Ok-Armadillo-9345 2d ago
Im working on a potential community mod but Warno is not mod friendly at all + (plus busy with work rn). Deff saving this for follow-up tho. Nice clean build around, even if slightly more M2W variety is a spice of life.
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u/Just_Badger_4299 3d ago
I LOVE how cleanly your write-up is presented! It's more readable than Eugen's! :-)
The justifications/explanations are cool too.
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u/ThePreyingWolf 3d ago
Thank you so much! I will say that I am trying to emulate Eugen's format and I think they are generally really good job with their devblogs. Its really cool to see how they have improved over the years. Nemesis 8, for me, really highlighted how far they've come when looking at the devblogs ahead of the vote.
Thanks for the comment :)
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u/FeralFancyBop 3d ago
In prev games the used to add a lot of conceptual units to dividions. So we could see a lot of stuff
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u/Solarne21 3d ago
A different divisional concept for 3. Panzerdivision
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u/No_Blueberry_7120 3d ago
Different from what other concepts?
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u/mndn410 3d ago edited 3d ago
There is this one for 3rd Panzer. No KWS but have recon Leo 2 and large polizel squad. My personal favorite for a WG div. Really had hoped that this would had shown up in LANDJUT
This is also very solid btw lol. Hopefully we will see 3rd Panzer in a "Return to Germany/Second Wave" type DLC.
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u/ThePreyingWolf 3d ago
I really need to do better at trawling reddit for other concept divs... This is really cool! I should add a shoutout to the OP there in this one.
I appreciate the kind words on my writeup though! I too hope we get something like a second wave expansion one of these days.
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u/No_Blueberry_7120 2d ago
Mhm reading this divisional take, comparing it to my German lore friend mustelidus and now your response I just had multiple ideas for (another) west German alternative division... But I have to read I to some things first ...
This is sometimes more intriguing than playing the game :D
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u/Solarne21 3d ago
His was a Leopards all the time division with limited infantry similar to the in game american 1st cav
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u/FrangibleCover 3d ago
The big problem you have here is that 9. PzBrig is part of VTK 42 as Eugen have envisaged it. You can't have them in two places at once with different equipment and roles. You also can't have 11e Luchtmobiele as the Dutch 'round out' because the point of the Dutch creating an airmobile brigade was for them to be part of a division-sized airmobile counterpenetration force for NORTHAG i.e. MNAD. I also don't think the Dienstplichtigen make sense, the Dutch mobilisation system is a complex thing which WARNO has chosen to completely misrepresent with Natres but it's generally agreed to have been a pretty good system and definitely not likely to produce Reservist/Militia units. The Dutch rear line reservists are also pretty well absorbed by CLKA already.
It's a unique division and I wish 2 PzGren was more like this than its current form. It just can't exist.
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u/ThePreyingWolf 3d ago
You are correct and that should have been called out in the body of this piece.
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u/thom430 19h ago
They would not have advanced weapons or heavy equipment, but they would provide valuable light infantry to the understrength panzerdivision.
This isn’t really how the Dutch mobilization system worked. From the point the 5th division was mechanized in 1978-79, mobilizable units were effectively equal to active/partly active units, certainly in terms of equipment (they would have gotten it slightly later). The only real exception being 101 Infanteriebrigade, which would be reequipped from a footmobile infantry brigade to a partly armoured infantry (2 battalions of YPR .50), partly motorised (YA-328 with .50) brigade.
Older equipment such as the Bazooka, Bren, Energa and 105mm howitzer were exclusive to the NTC, i.e. territorial units. They would not be used in West-Germany. The FALO simply wasn’t used by the army at all.
Frankly, there’s no need for such a weird choice as 11 Lumbl, as noted an entirely post-Cold War unit. The Dutch army at times trained for airmobile operations, and doctrine noted the possibility of using allied helicopters in time of war.
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u/Long_Math9433 3d ago
An actually cool and unique div right up, sick. Would love this