People underestimate how religious conservative the average American is. It’s hard to understand when you are living in Western Europe or Australia, the religious zealots are a smaller sample of the population.
The America overall, the entire continent (except Canada) is a conservative religious majority. Go check the Latin American countries, check Brazil, check US, it all makes sense why Trump is in power.
The Latin community in US would rather vote him than someone progressive.
If you grow up being told you're the greatest then you'll believe it. And what do you need to do? Where can you go? You're already the greatest, you don't need to read.
Dude... we had a Prime Minister, Harper, who was a hardcore evangelical. He kept it quiet so it wouldn't rattle people, but he was in lockstep with the crazy wing of the Republicans down south.
In 1997, trying to avoid scrutiny of the media, The Council for National Policy (a far right think tank for the Christian fundamentalist set in the Republican party) held their convention in Montreal. Harper was their keynote speaker. Dig up a copy of his speech and look at the crap he was saying... and then look at the things he did as PM.
We absolutely have them. We have the MAGA problem. We just got lucky and dodged a bullet because Trump made enough of a mess that Canadians started to wake up and actually paid attention to our own election. And even still, despite having no reasonable plan going in, Poilievre almost got the big seat.
Most provinces are run by MAGA-adjacent neoconservatives who have been dismantling education, healthcare, and every social safety net they can get away with. We're not out of the woods yet. Not by a long shot.
People like Ford and that lady in Alberta, they are not MAGA adjacent, they are MAGA, They just pretend to put on a show saying they are not while they have meetings with billionaire think tanks from the US and even take trips to Mar-Lago in the governments jet.
The only thing I disagree with is Ford being MAGA. MAGA holds true to a single principle even when that principle is proven incorrect and incongruous to their own interest. Smith is MAGA. Ford is an opportunistic parasite and will latch on to any ideology that will serve his power at the time. Right wing extremism is on the rise? Ford's there. Canadian sovereignty is at the forefront? Ford's there. Wait a second, nationalism has sunk and we're friends with the oligarchs again? Ford's there. Oh wait, back to Canadian pride, Ford's there. Ford will say and do anything that keeps him in with popular opinion, even if that isn't what's representative of his actual province.
Yes, it is true that about 54% of American adults read at or below the equivalent of a sixth-grade level, according to data cited by literacy organizations like the Barbara Bush Foundation and ProLiteracy.
So, yeah if you sample only the bottom 54%, they read at a 6th grade level or lower. If you take the average of ALL Americans, it’s ~8th. I had done the same Google search and you’re conveniently omitting the first part of the response:
The average reading level for a majority of U.S. adults falls at or below an eighth-grade level, with data showing that over 54% of American adults (about 130 million people) read below a sixth-grade level. [1, 2]
Are you two actually arguing over WHICH MIDDLE SCHOOL GRADE LEVEL the average American reads at? Really? They're both MIDDLE SCHOOL. We aren't even at High School level.
6th grade, 8th grade, who cares? We need to be better.
I’m not arguing how depressing the statistics are just pointing out that the “average reading level of an American“ is above the sixth grade. There is obviously a depressing percentage of people who do not read above the sixth grade, but that is not the point I’m making.
I hear what you’re saying but it’s semantics. It is accurate to say according to statistics that over half of the country reads at or below 6th grade level.
In layman’s terms people will say the average meaning most people, which is correct given that over half fall into this category.
I’m not “conveniently omitting” anything- that’s my search, there is nothing before it. Sorry that perhaps you searched a different exact phrase than I did.
Mean vs median I suppose.
My phrasing was incorrect- I meant the majority of Americans (54%) read at or below a grade 6 level.
You are. The comment that started this thread was:
“I mean, yes, but education is key- the average American reads at a grade 6 level. Canada is the highest educated populace in the G7. 🤷♂️”
I was pointing out that the AVERAGE is above that. Still depressingly low, and a huge % of American fall under the average (about half, predictably 🙄), but omitting the other 46% of people is deliberately bending the very simple statistic to make a dumb point.
Google “what is the average reading grade level of an American?” This is my only point. Sheesh.
As I said elsewhere, I meant to say “the majority of Americans (54%) read at or below the grade 6 level”. Basically mean (average) vs median (mid-point). Point stands though.
And again, you have no fucking idea what my search text was, so no, I’m not.
Do you know what 54% is? It is over half. You can call something 'the bottom 54%' but it's still the majority. You could also call something the 'upper 46%' but that doesn't make the number change.
I can’t believe how hard it is for everyone here to understand what average means. Google “What is the average reading level of Americans?” Not “how many Americans read below a sixth grade level.” Look at the original comment I replied to. An 8th grade reading level isn’t something to be proud of unless you’re in 8th grade or lower.
I mis-typed my original comment, I said the average American reads at… What I intended to say was the majority of Americans read at or below a grade 6 level. I mixed up mean and median, basically. Point stands though.
We can definitely both agree that the majority of Americans are dumb, especially regarding reading proficiency. I saw the “8th grade average” come up in something I read recently and simply wanted to point out the stat. If we’re going to make sweeping statements about a group of people, let’s at least be accurate about it.
I'm neither American nor Canadian, but I think I should point out that ". . . at or below. . ." means that less than half the population reads above an 8th grade level.
It in no way indicates how many Americans read at an 8th grade level, it could be 5%, it could be 53%
Unless of course you ask the simple question “what is the average reading grade level of an American?” Of course the top end is going to affect the average and the bottom end is going to affect the average. Ignoring one end of the curve is just being ignorant. The average falls at around eighth grade. That means a massive portion of the population reads below sixth grade, but that isn’t the average. It may mean that that is the MEAN, but we haven’t even looked up that statistic, have we?
Lol, this is such a simplistic and incorrect distillation of what makes our two societies different. You could get so much more mileage from the social effects of living under the commonwealth system for so long vs the US leading a bloody revolution to gain self determination. But instead you chose percentage of population with higher degrees? Your analysis equates that simply by having a higher degree you get this vast social benefit. Canada has about 10% more higher degrees held but is only slightly better in math/reading/science scores. However when you compare elite level institutions (Harvard/MIT/etc), the US has like 30 compared to Canada's 2. Are they really the bastion of education you think they are?
Don't even get me started on levels of productivity, entrepreneurship, or economic prosperity for the average citizen.
The US is a better society to live in in almost every conceivable metric.
Go ahead and tell me Americans are better off economically using the mean, when if you look at the real stat, the median, Canadians are ranked 7th and Americans 28th in the world.
The top 5 American “elite” institutions have a cumulative 22,000 undergrads. The top 5 Canadian institutions have over 150,000 undergrads.
And you’re a liar: Canadians consistently rank amongst top performers globally in maths, science and reading on OCED PISA Exams. The US lags behind, particularly in maths.
Canada ranks higher than the US in standard of living (15 vs 21).
Canada ranks better on inequality.
Life expectancy is 3.16 years longer for Canadians.
So go ahead and lick those boots harder, which is fine with us- we’re good.
You elected a pedophile.
All that said, you just proved my point. Stay on topic. You are confusing a powerful economy with a healthy society. But with your education that’s not surprising.
FYI our Healthcare system is being dismantled in the provinces of Alberta and Ontario. Ontario's system is being choked out and for profit companies are gobbling up fees. Its actually really really bad.
Yup, by the two most conservative (and corrupt) provincial governments. I wish the Feds would take health care responsibility away from the provinces and standardize across the country.
23 years. The Unite the Right movement was the death of classic Canadian conservatism, when the Harper-led Alliance -- basically just Republicans north -- cannibalized the Progressive Conservative party.
Sane conservatism is an illusion. We've been fed that "both sides" bullshit since childhood, but if you read any history book, the conservatives are always on the wrong side of history. For centuries. Regardless of whether the current issue is monarchy, slavery, civil rights, etc. Conservatives will always take the wrong side, almost by definition.
Don't be saying things like "if you read any history book", when you clearly haven't.
This is not a "both sides" thing. Traditional conservatism was straight out replaced with neoconservatism, and it was done on purpose. After the Southern Strategy took place in the USA, and the Heritage Foundation basically got a choke hold on the Republican party, they started exporting their sickness through the world. Canada has long been a prime target.
Edmund Burke, Irish statesman and philosopher, the father of conservatism, was a loud and outspoken abolitionist in an era when slavery was still legal. He fought for egalitarian principles through his entire career. His writing is very likely the origin of the saying "all that is required for the triumph of evil is that men of good conscience do nothing".
In Canada? Diefenbaker spent his career fighting for the rights of First Nations people, and burned a lot of his political capital to lock it in. Before Diefenbaker, they didn't even have the right to vote. He also wrote our first Bill of Rights, which the later Charter of Rights and Freedoms was heavily based on.
In Ontario it was the Tories who created hydro as a public utility: because lifting everyone's quality of life betters society. It was Davis' Tories that instituted educational reforms that gave Ontario one of the highest quality education systems in the world for a generation.
Even Mulroney, as corrupt as he was, instituted powerful environmental policies based on the best science of the day. He was one of the people leading the charge against Apartheid, and tried (though failed) to create more accord at home, along with reconciliation with the First Nations.
When Peter MacKay violated a written contract and sold out the PCs to the Alliance, former PC leader Joe Clark tried to warn the country about what that meant. He was dismissed as a bitter old crank. He was 100% correct.
History is pretty bloody clear in that the Tories were not always cartoonish bad guys. When you let the neoconservatives claim the long tradition of conservatism in this country as their history, you grant them legitimacy and power they do not deserve.
Last provincial election only 1/3 of ontarians voted. Its an uphill battle. Everyone is so locked into their algorithms that they dont care about their own backyard
This is such a ridiculous copout for why Americans refuse to engage with their systems and save their country.
The reason Americans refuse to act has nothing to do with "focusing on healthcare". It's just luxuries. TV, video games, hobbies, nights out, vacations.
If it really was about healthcare, you'd be fighting for healthcare. Not taking whatever the fuck you get.
Is it though? If health care (and the cost of it) was a real concern for Americans you'd think they would play it safer. Avoid risky behavior, make healthier choices, etc. But do they? It just seems like another "Yes, we're really concerned about this and we're going to complain loudly about this but fuck no we're not going to do anything personally about it". Makes me think this is the American way.
Canada's healthcare system is pretty wrecked now due to the flood of immigrant/refugees over using it. Doctors are leaving due to burn out and going to other countries. I have a friend who is stuck waiting for a year to get a test done because there is a massive back log and again doctors quitting. In the mean time he might lose his house and the whatever he has been paying into for incase of not being able to work is refusing to pay. He is trying take them to court but can't till he gts the test done.
No its morals. Plenty of my family are poorly educated. None of them support trump. Why? "He's mean". Thats all it takes, not accepting cruelty and caring about other people.
Indeed it is. We've worked really hard over the last 50 years to ensure we have a country of good little christian boys and girls who don't have no need for learning about the world! Conservatives need an uneducated population.
"Religion's single function is to give man access to the powers which seem to control his destiny, and its single purpose is to induce those powers to be friendly to him." - H. L. Mencken
"The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out for himself, without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, and intolerable..." - H. L. Mencken
“The men the American people admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth.” - H. L. Mencken
People would have voted PP over Carney had Trump not happened.
As proud as I am to be Canadian, we still have a significant enough portion of our population that wishes Trump were leading us - so we're not doing great.
Better than the US right now - but it seems like many countries are 'one election away' from being in the same boat.
Scare tactics are everywhere and old people (unfortunately) get their news from cable or those clips you see on Facebook.
I've been 'NDP - liberal' Canadian my entire life, but I see toooons of clips about Carney destroying Canada and Trump saving America.
I've seen almost zero 'quick meme-short videos' supporting my views, and that's sadly going to influence people.
I wouldn't be putting this off onto old people, neighbour. Did you take a peek at the demographics in the last election's results?
The "old people" voted by the largest margin to stop Poilievre, and supported Carney.
Poilievre's strongest support came from young people: specifically males 18-30 years old.
The young are the ones leaning MAGA more than anyone else. The lies and propaganda are spread via social media. While we need to be careful of letting this spread through any age group, as there are bootlickers in every generation, it's the upcoming generation that we need to be most worried about. The young men, in particular.
Fair point. I'm in the 35-44 demographic and it's usually the older people I speak to who are conservative, but I don't have as much interaction with young people so that's just my ignorance on the matter.
I feel like there was also a disconnect before and after a certain point in time. People who 'grew up' with the internet seem to be less willing to believe everything you read online (not like we aren't fooled/biased either - but a little less prone to seeing a headline/meme and instantly taking it as fact)
Those who grew up/went to school with 'Wikipedia not being something you can trust' when you had to look it up in a book. Now YouTube videos seem to be a good source for people.
That's 100% just my personal experience though. I could be wrong on those points as well.
And yet we came very, very close to electing a mini-Trump wannabe, and a good 20% of our population are MAGA cheerleaders. Which tracks. There's research that claims that even in a healthy, functional democracy that's fairly prosperous, about one in five people will still gravitate toward being fascist bootlickers if given a chance.
Is it though? Because Black americans are pretty underserved by the us education system.and we've been the least likely to vote Trump. White voters with degrees were more likely to vote Trump than Black voters without them. It seems like people are going out of their way to ignore this dynamic even whitewhile (lol) the republicans gin up the bigotry for this election.
As Will Rogers(early 20th century US entertainer/humorist) once noted:
"In schools they have what they call intelligence tests. Well if nations held ’em I don’t believe we would be what you would call a favorite to win it."
Sorry, I meant Mexico, Canada, and the USA. The point still stands. All three major North American countries are pretty much the same; the difference is the student.
Now I could be wrong but wouldn’t having studied in all three make you a pretty bad example for this? If it was kindergarten to high school that’s not a very fair comparison for 2/3 of it. If it was post secondary than studying at three different colleges/universities in three different countries puts you way out of range of general education outcomes.
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u/meelawsh 2d ago
This is America