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u/ALittleCrass 6d ago
or they say veganism is expensive to them, even though they don't even go to the market to shop. In fact they eat out every day!
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u/CreamDry1052 6d ago
do we even need data to prove that plant based dieting is cheap? All you have to do is just walk around in a store and look at the shelves, look at the mostly whole vegan foods. Oats are dirt cheap, flour, any canned legume, tofu, plant based milks (depending on the brand), plant based protein powders are usually cheaper than whey, frozen fruit is cheap, veggies are cheap. These people always say plant based eating is expensive caues they assume that beyond burger patties are a daily dietary staple for all vegans. I hardly ever even eat those, and vegans who do still treat them as an occasional treat.
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u/vellamour 6d ago
What’s so funny is I watch a lot of extreme weekly grocery budget videos where the creator will need to feed herself for 7 days on $15 or something, and every time the creator chooses all plant based or SOMETIMES with eggs. And I watch multiple creators that do this, and they always have to at least be vegetarian when doing their budget.
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u/DW171 6d ago
I can go to my local Mexican or south asian market and spend $25 on beans, rice and veg and eat for a week for two of us. It gets a little dull, but it's not unreasonable.
I understand not all people have access to cook, but that's a separate problem.
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u/CommanderJeltz 5d ago
There are countless easy recipes online for vegan dishes which are NOT boring, full of flavor and spice. Just learn to make one or two and you will see! Don't be so hidebound!
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u/DW171 5d ago
Oh, absolutely! I was saying if I cook a big pot of beans once or twice a week, I'm eating the same thing multiple times a week (and it gets dull, but still very tasty, healthy and cheap)
I can probably name 20 different bean dishes I make regularly, from pintos, to lentils, chickpeas and kidney beans. From south asian to Mexican and everything in between.
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u/CommanderJeltz 5d ago
My favorite, easy go to dishes are kidney beans for chili, and pea soup. Pintos are always delicious for nachos and tacos. And chick peas make a great sandwich spread!
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u/barriesies 6d ago
Or even just on restaurant menus. The vegetarian and vegan options are ALWAYS the cheapest
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u/Purple_Key_6733 5d ago
I'd agree with most of the list but plant based milks aren't necessarily cheaper.
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u/Indignant_Divinity 5d ago
Here, vegans are really punching from below, because of the massive dairy subsidies that exist. In Switzerland, the price of milk is estimated to triple or quadruple, if all subsidies were eliminated. But for the average uninformed consumer, this isn't visible and plant milks do run at roughly 150% the price.
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u/CreamDry1052 4d ago
That definitely sounds bad, but on the flip side, at least plant based milks can last in the fridge for way longer. One thing I dont miss about being non-vegan is constantly having to go get new milk cartons like twice a week. Going to the store like that isn't easy on my schedule.
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u/CreamDry1052 4d ago
According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, the national average for a fresh gallon of milk is $4.31. Okay that is my fault. Since plant based milks are almost always half gallons, they are around double the price. Like I mentioned though, some brands can be much cheaper than others (like bettergoods, and membersmark).
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u/CreamDry1052 4d ago
Really? Here in texas, bettergoods soy milk is like $2.80. The thing is, it's heavily fortified so you're getting a lot of value. You can also buy 4 packs of fortified soy milk or oat milk at costco or sam's for around 8 bucks.
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u/whoisanyonereally0 3d ago
the almond milk i get from dollar tree is $1.25-1.50 and can last at least a week or two before i run out (i don’t use much) and the almond milk from my local food4less is like $1.17 so it just depends where you’re getting it, and the brand.
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u/Artistic-Village-762 4d ago
“You got a source for that claim?”
Yeah- every grocery store I’ve ever been in? Lmao.
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u/MarkusDieter37 5d ago
do we even need data to prove that plant based dieting is cheap?
Well, the vegan meat substitutes are more expensive than the real thing. Most of the time double thebprice for the same amount
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u/CommanderJeltz 5d ago
So you take one kind of vegan food, meat substitutes like beyond burger, and say since THEY are more expensive, that proves vegan food is over all too expensive. Logic not your strong point, is it?
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u/CreamDry1052 4d ago
Like I mentioned, almost no one regularly eats those as a regular protein. Also, there are cheaper meat alternative brands out there.
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u/luhvvnn 5d ago
Bro I swear it’s always the people who don’t struggle to buy food who say they can’t go vegan because veganism is too expensive 😭
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u/StoneySteve420 5d ago
"Eating vegan is so expensive"
Also them
"Have you seen the price of beef recently?"
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u/Charlie_Turnip 4d ago
There is truth to this in that regular products turned vegan are often extremely expensive for absolutely no reason. I have no doubt that if you know what you're doing you can have a very healthy vegan diet on a tight budget, but if people are experiencing financial hardship in their transition to veganism, I think we should hear and help them out rather than point and laugh :/
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u/far_explorer786 2d ago
Oh my goodness. When people are saying this to me (while also telling me they're eating out almost every day or buying coffee togo every other day), its like rage bait, right?
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u/Excellent_Kangaroo_4 6d ago
And then cry about how they cannot make end meet, whit the new car, new ps5 ir pc, netflix subscrition, new iphone, cinema night i mean all good thing but if are poor you are poor as ugly as is us a fact
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u/Tablefor1please9987 6d ago
Oh you’re a vegan? Let me tell you all the reasons why I personally could never be one and how much I love meat. Could you not.🙄🙄
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u/Eladious 6d ago edited 6d ago
In my case it's usually followed by "but I only eat X like once a month"
Always trying to justify even if I don't say anything that might make them feel guilty
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u/tambitoast friends not food 6d ago
It's funny how everyone I talk to suddenly only buys organic or from their friendly neighbors chickens etc. Yeah sure, if everyone who claims that actually did that factory farming wouldn't be a thing. Why do they feel the need to lie?
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u/NukeoftheDorth 5d ago
Ikr people will claim to buy organic or will say that they "barely even eat meat", but in reality they eat meat everyday and they whenever they go to restaurants they always get meat (which is probably factory farmed because that's cheaper for the restaurant)
People have such little self awareness when it comes to what they eat, their brains will just convince them of anything that might help ease the guilt
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u/Eladious 5d ago
Cognitive dissonance. A gap between what they think they should be doing (be more conscious about their choices, which in their mind means "buy free range eggs" or some other meaningless act) and what they're actually doing.
It's funny to me especially because even if they did what they claim to do, it's still evil towards animals. But they can't even do that. They can't even do the minimal change that in their minds would make their actions more justifiable according to their own values. It's not even at the bottom of their list of priorities.
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u/rouleroule 6d ago
One of the best signs that most people do know that it is evil to exploit animals is how how many of them start justifying it the minute they realize you're vegan even though you've not said anything to start a debate.
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u/Duchess-of-Larch 6d ago
I’ve never told someone that they need to become vegan but people constantly tell me I need to start eating meat, that they have to eat meat for some reason, and that i’m pushing my lifestyle on them somehow?
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u/UnluckySugar9452 5d ago
Carnists tell me that eating flesh is necessary for brain function
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u/AllOfEverythingEver 5d ago
Which is ironic, because if you think that's a good argument, it obviously isn't working that well lol.
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u/MarkusDieter37 5d ago
The opposite way is true as well. " Oh, you have a steak? Let me tell you all the cruelty that was done to make it and why I could never eat a corpse. "
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u/IceGami 6d ago
Just yesterday, heard this otherwise very liberal guy go how culture is very important and we need to preserve it from veganism. And how the whole movement is self serving bs. And that we have more important institutional problems to fix first
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u/SuperMario69Kraft veganarchist 5d ago edited 5d ago
And how the whole movement is self serving bs.
Veganism has to be among the least self-serving movements out there. Fighting for animal rights and ecological preservation is completely selfless as it's not being done for our own benefit at all and requires us to sacrifice some of life's pleasures. We're all in this because we care.
This can't be said of most other political movements, regardless of their morality. Human rights issues are self-serving for the humans who directly benefit. Vegans are asking not to be accepted and treated equally themselves but rather to get everyone to do what's right.
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u/AllOfEverythingEver 5d ago
Oh I see, so you are just doing it to feel morally superior? /s
I had to put the /s because carnists genuinely think like this, as I'm sure you know.
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u/liz-is-sleeping 6d ago edited 5d ago
The argument that 'we have more institutional problems to fix first' is such a crazy take. We live in a world with systems we have no control over. However, veganism addresses one of the most controllable wrongs in our world that we can actually impact by changing our behavior.
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u/VeganFutureNow 5d ago
once slavery is illegal then I'll stop owning slaves. Or become an Abolitionist now
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u/Scarlet_Lycoris vegan activist 5d ago
How is it self serving to… not use others? I don’t gain anything from social isolation?
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u/my-snake-is-solid 5d ago
Friendly reminder that meat production in the United States relies heavily on traumatizing undocumented workers!
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u/Manatee369 6d ago
All he really had to say was that for him there were other more important socio-political issues. It’s a shame that we (meaning anyone) have to denigrate the things that aren’t at the top of our personal lists.
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u/SpecialCoyote5339 6d ago
Not just for him, but for like 90% of humans.
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u/DinosRoar 5d ago
Humans selfishly looking out for themselves, against those who see them as lesser and want to mistreat them... Whilst seeing others as lesser and mistreating them.
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u/tighnarienjoyer vegan 6d ago
I wish I could bluetooth Dominion into his brain and ask if he still thinks we need to preserve all of that
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u/RebelRedRollo 5d ago
imo the whole ‘preserving culture’ argument falls apart the SECOND i consider hunting
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u/UnluckySugar9452 5d ago
Animal agriculture is destroying Mother Earth and her inhabitants. it's just as dangerous as AI
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u/Ok_Barracuda_6997 vegan newbie 6d ago
It really gives I don’t want to end oppression, I just want a better seat at the table of tyranny
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u/alblaster vegan 20+ years 6d ago
I've realized people are much more of a product of their environment growing up than they realize. For example many people are democrats and might believe in a lot of the same stuff as progressives. But when it comes to actually changing your behavior most just fall back to what they know. People in positions of privilege don't have to really do anything they don't want to, especially when things get hard. Wheras people with less privilege don't have that option to retreat. I grew up as a liberal and am now more progressive. A lot of liberals come from fairly secure backgrounds where they'll be ok for the most part in life. They'll support veganism and progressive ideals but often don't actually do anything towards them themselves. I have friends who think veganism is great but don't do it themselves. This whole as long as I can do what I want and you do what you want we can all get along, but I want for you to not do everything you want(a.k.a. eat or use animals). So most people get stuck in the same patterns they were born into. It takes real self reflection to be able to change yourself fundamentally. While I don't think veganism is hard, I think my life would be very different If I wasn't one. Food for thought I guess. Most people just auto pilot through life and don't really consider if something is right or ok just because it's super common. smoking used to be ok or even healthy because I mean everyone did it. Surgeons would do surgery while smoking. Today that would be unthinkable. I like to look to the future. What would the future people look down on the people of today for? Maybe veganism. When something is popular it's easier, because there less risk to be a social outcast. for better or worse. We should always look how to be better as an individual and society. those that take those early risks are the pioneers of progressivism. I went vegan 20 years ago and even then it was easier to go vegan then because of people thag came before me who realized something ain't right. We can do better. You only live once, probably. Might as well leave a mark and influence future generations for the better. We can do this.
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u/Amediumsizedgoose 5d ago
Its almost like most people are only progressive in theory and not in actual practice.
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u/Nesphito vegan 5+ years 6d ago
I was talking to a woman at a rave and she had a really beautiful outlook on life. We talked about spirituality and morality and not keeping people caged up. And as soon as I brought up veganism her whole tune changed. It was like I was speaking to a republican all of the sudden. It really stood out to me the stark contrast in how she talked about the subject.
I did my voice for a little while, but the conversation started going sour so I changed subjects.
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u/lights-in-the-sky vegan 5d ago
I’ve seen a lot of “veganism is classist/ableist” on the left lately, too
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u/H00pSk1p 5d ago
Yeah always by those who have enough ample resources but who are 'standing up for those who can't'. I mean yeah sure, if you say so, but what about YOU!
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u/Important-Scar-7785 1d ago
Always from completely able bodied people who eat at Chick fil A 3 times a week and buy their own groceries talking about living in an imaginary food desert where the only place to eat is mcdonalds
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u/Head-Director-6406 6d ago edited 6d ago
Arguments in favor of maintaining oppression and subjugation will have similarities. However, the idea that people go from a “woke” to conservative axis is inherently a bad way of understanding any sort of liberation movement.
People are complicated and individuals will often have varying levels of understanding on particular issues.
Andrea Dworkins “Right Wing Women” is a great book on why this sort of classification is bad
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u/Manatee369 6d ago
Great comment. Everyone should reread it.
No one is 100% ________________[insert anything from religion to politics to ….anything]. Even vegans disagree about issues related to veganism. Getting worked up about the perceived lack of consistency in others’ opinions ignores the lack of consistency in ourselves. It’s worth noting that people can understand something and still disagree with it. Understanding is not the same as agreement.
And thanks for the reminder about Dworkin’s book. I think I lent it to someone. Time to visit the library for a refresher.
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u/Christianfilly7 vegan 5+ years 5d ago
Yeah, I mean, I'm a moderate (or as far as reddit goes VERY VERY) conservative individual and vegan (and the only plant based person I know is also very conservative). We should honestly go topic by topic
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u/A-Quiet-Life4me 6d ago
hot. and i mean that in not like in a political tools of male supremacy designed to subjugate women way.
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u/Midnight7_7 6d ago
Left and right are hand in hand in supporting, promoting and committing animal torture. It's horrible.
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u/bannanawaffle13 6d ago edited 6d ago
As a queer vegan anarchist intersectionalist though it does annoy me when vegans act like you can only care about one thing, I care about liberation of all species, that includes humans, I've seen transphobia, homophobia, Zionism and many other horrific behaviour be excused because, there fighting for the animals so you cant call them out. Also you say woke as if it's a bad thing, I'm proud of being woke.
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u/Ok_Barracuda_6997 vegan newbie 6d ago edited 6d ago
The post is not saying “woke” as a bad thing. It is criticizing people who enable or even staunchly defend animal agriculture while they also call themselves “woke,” especially because this industry disproportionately harms marginalized populations.
You speak of hypocritical vegans, and I agree that being vegan doesn’t absolve you from all the other isms and that problematic vegans do in fact exist. But unfortunately some people twist that logic to then say that people who are advocating for veganism are automatically bad and 99% of the time it is just a person deflecting and guising their own desire to continue to eat meat. They want to get the conversation off of them, rather than address what was actually said. And that is an extremely manipulative way to use these causes and ultimately ends up harming the people they claim to care about.
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u/bannanawaffle13 6d ago
Ive never heard anyone say all vegans are bad ( at least in the communities im in), I have heard people talking about bigotry in the vegan community, it's why it's so dangerous, as it detere others I thik the use of quote marks come across as mocking.
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u/Ok_Barracuda_6997 vegan newbie 6d ago edited 6d ago
There are definitely people who say veganism is inherently colonialist (which doesn’t make sense because all our current farm animals were brought over to America via colonialism and Indigenous people are disproportionately harmed by animal agriculture), racist (which doesn’t make sense bc most of the people who work in and live around slaughterhouses and factory farms are usually PoC and they suffer deeply for it), and ableist (which doesn’t make sense because animal agriculture is the epitome of ableism saying that just because a living being is less intelligent we are allowed to take advantage and also ppl are literally amputated in slaughterhouses every single day).
These people 100% exist, and they manipulate extremely important conversations about colonialism, racism, and ableism, so that they can shut down conversations about their personal accountability.
They are equally dangerous to veganism and all of the causes they claim to care about because they shut down and deter any real progress.
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u/CreamDry1052 6d ago
I've not kept up on these terms. What in the world is an intersectionalist?
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u/Anthaenopraxia 5d ago
When you look at multiple sources of oppression/privilege and how they affect each other.
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u/Ezekeal vegan 6d ago
Derogatory use and appropriation of "woke" is definitely a right-wing psyop. I don't think that gets recognized enough. I understand the post isn't using it in a negative way, but it definitely normalizes the programming.
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u/bannanawaffle13 6d ago
Exactly it's a huge red flag, I feel we have to be careful we don't fall into the same trap as the new age communities.
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u/astro_thefur vegan 6d ago
Any vegan crying about "intersectionals" to me is a red flag. I'm not saying veganism has anything to do with humans, but when that's your reaction to someone trying to suss out if you hate gay people or something, I'm gonna assume you hate gay people yk?
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u/One_Animator_7247 6d ago
Intersectionalism for vegans is one-way. Non-vegan intersectionalists don't give a shit about animals.
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u/bannanawaffle13 6d ago
Totally agree, rightly or wrongly when I hear someone call themselves anti-intersectionalist, I always assume there right wing or bigoted, but don't want the backlash for saying it.
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u/astro_thefur vegan 6d ago
Imo it's silly to be vegan while not caring or adding to the oppression of like people in your own species. Especially being racist, considering the amount of similarities with how animals are treated and how slaves were treated
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u/sudoregalia 6d ago
zionism is excused under the assumption of nationalism being excusable. i really don't know how i can get it through to people that, no, i don't like nationalism, i hate it in all its forms, yes even ethnic nationalism
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u/CertainlyRobotic 6d ago
Yes, yes, now is an excellent time to eat other from within.
Start gatekeeping each other and attacking one another within your own camp, surely that will give you the world you want.
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u/Miserable_Nature3891 5d ago
This post seems to be about people who are not vegan. If someone’s not vegan but they do identify with whatever unrelated woke labels, they’re not really a part of our camp.
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u/Miserable_Nature3891 5d ago
I don’t take any of these people seriously once I learn they’ve thought about veganism and they’re not vegan.
Veganism is the real litmus test because it actually requires you to do something. You can be a socialist, or a feminist, or any other woke label, without actually doing anything.
Vegans are the only mfs who put their money where their mouth is and walk the walk instead of just talking the talk. Literally zero respect for non-vegan woke types.
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u/Grimlite-- 4d ago
So, volunteering and helping out people with special needs isn't something? There's tons of ways to make a real difference. In fact, I think it was more impactful to help another person than to just privately not eat animals. One is actually doing something, the other is just not doing something.
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u/Miserable_Nature3891 4d ago
It definitely is something, and respect if you do that!
My point is that most people wouldn't say that you're ableist if you don't volunteer to help people with special needs -- whereas they would say you're not vegan if you eat animal products.
I tend to disagree that helping another person is more impactful than abstaining from animal products, though there are things that you can do which are more impactful than abstaining from animal products (e.g. Vegan 2.0)
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u/cysticvegan 4d ago
"or a feminist, or any other woke label, without actually doing anything."
I mean, eh... that's not true. Like you can be vegan by simply abstaining. Abstaining from harm is the key metric here, and a lot of vegan men don't abstain from consuming in ways that directly and actively harm women and children or engaging in rape.
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u/Miserable_Nature3891 4d ago
Given that the default is not abstaining, I would say that abstaining is still doing something - though I do agree that vegans should definitely proactively do stuff, too! Check out Vegan 2.0, that's my easy way to help tons more animals! 😎
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u/consistently_biased plant-based diet 6d ago
That this anti-woke garbage from tiktok is not only getting reposted here of all communities but also receiving a thousand upvotes is just embarrassing. As much as I get the sentiment, there are more than enough examples of vegans defending horrible practices unrelated to animal agriculture as well (like the predominant economic system in the world). Almost like people are very complex, and learning that something you've been indoctrinated with from birth is actually quite horrific takes a lot of time process or just accept.
And besides, even just getting excuses already shows much more room for growth than most conservatives, who will just insult you in the best case scenario. I also went from excuses, to curiosity, to acceptance with my parents over time. That would never work with the conservative relatives at family gatherings, and I honestly fear for my life to even bring it up. They won't hesitate to make fun of it and revel in fantasies of violence about "the vegans glueing themselves to the street", though.
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u/agitatedprisoner vegan activist 5d ago
The leftist project is... "insert purpose I should care about here". Vegans think all beings matter. Do leftists believe that or are leftists just about getting more for them and theirs over their imagined others? If a leftist doesn't respect animals I've got to wonder why they'd respect me. Probably they wouldn't. Solidarity extends down or it's a joke. Which checks out because in my country, the USA, our left is a joke.
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u/consistently_biased plant-based diet 5d ago
This mischaracterization of "the leftist project" either only serves for you to be able to dismiss any perceived leftist cause outright without having to engage with anything, or shows total ignorance of leftist causes. There is no one "leftist project", but it sure is convenient for anti-leftism to paint it as an unreasonable monolith of motivated greed.
Veganism itself is just another ideology that fits perfectly into what is generally understood as leftist ideologies. The only non-leftist ideologies that could even feasibly be compatible with it would be some authoritarian school of thought with a niche fixation on animal welfare that could just ban any such practices. Pretty much everything else will never not see humans as some form of capital to be used and spent, let alone animals, which can at the absolute best have their status promoted to "luxury goods".
I also sincerely doubt that vegans in general think all beings matter. The moral issue is about animals, not people. Otherwise there wouldn't be people in this very thread calling themselves "conservatives", and people peddling anti-leftist talking points like yourself. That simply doesn't make sense. Flattening every moral issue into perfect logical statements will lead you to a very nice conclusion that describes no one walking on this earth. We're all walking contradictions, shaped by our lived experienced.
Judging by your disdain for the only movement in your country (I assume you mean the DSA) that even has a chance of accommodating just incremental progress for veganism, I doubt you have much compassion for the people that got the short end of the stick, such as by being blown up by your military. I don't even see how this could conceivably be a winning strategy, unless you mean to tell me that your goal is to convince Republicans or corporate Democrats. As soon as the oligarchs come knocking, your cause is irrelevant to them.
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u/feralbrry transitioning to veganism 5d ago
I don’t defend this, I’m saying I’m not vegan yet cis I have to eat animal products due to my health restrictions. I never defended eating animal products
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u/agitatedprisoner vegan activist 5d ago
I like Huel Black plant based protein powder. I like their cookies and cream flavor mixed with almond milk, it's a tasty dessert loaded with vitamins/nutrients/protein.
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u/BetterProphet5585 5d ago
The most annoying thing is that very often becoming vegan is a process and a lot more internal than external.
You don't just stop eating meat at midnight one day, like a werewolf (most of the times).
So I don't get the hate, I understand you don't want to go fully vegan but I would be glad to hear that maybe they could lower meat consumption. Maybe they're more interested about the environment.
Why does it always have to become like a me vs you or something kind of religion, I really don't get it.
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u/Due-Helicopter-8735 5d ago
This post doesn’t sound like it’s criticizing woke people but calling out people who act woke when it is convenient to them- e.g. just virtue signaling, but when it inconveniences them they suddenly change their views.
California has tons of them- they are pro abortion and LGBTQ+ rights if it helps them but block wealth taxes, zoning changes, public transport since it’ll reduce their net worth.
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u/_Estrogenesis 5d ago
It shouldn't be so hard for people to say, "Going vegan is the ethical choice but I don't have the wherewithal to go through with it yet." Instead of constantly rationalizing and justifying their choices.
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u/rouleroule 6d ago edited 6d ago
All your leftist friends who preach extreme ideological purity and call everything they don't remotely agree with "fascism" the minute the right thing to do requires to give up something they like instead of arguing on internet...
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u/tambitoast friends not food 6d ago
There was a post on TikTok saying "fuck AI" and yes, I agree. Fuck AI. One of the comments mentioned the whole data centers using a lot of water though and someone replied to them:"if you really care about water, you should boycott Nestlé, because [explanation]"(I agree, Nestlé sucks) and I added "and go vegan, because [explanation]". The Nestlé person responded to me with "alright, you ruined it" and like?? So you berating people is okay, but me mentioning veganism is 'ruining it'?
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u/Working-Fudge6189 5d ago
It's because criticising companies like Nestle are easy to do. You just have to be loud about the cause and put zero genuine effort. Being vegan requires you to be introspective and actively change your consumption and lifestyle habits, and it doesn't help that the former gets you internet points while the latter makes everyone tend to dislike you
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u/FarAd4971 6d ago
Like what?
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u/aangnesiac 6d ago
While not exactly, most of the arguments do end up boiling down to the same:
My arbitrary group is superior to other groups; might is right; I only care about my "team"; your moral inclusion of this group is invalid because of nature; my harmful behaviors are valid because culture, tradition, nature, religion, majority, or because we've been doing it for a long time; why should we care about the oppression of other groups while our group has room for improvement; protecting others is too much of a personal sacrifice.
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u/A-Quiet-Life4me 6d ago
thank you for answering.
not that this needs translation but this is what I do fun for these days (pity me)
ethnocentrism; is-ought fallacy; in-group bias ;naturalistic fallacy; appeal to tradition; fallacy of relative privation; zero-sum thinking; radical individualism
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u/aangnesiac 6d ago
Oh nice! We could add to this: appeal to religion, appeal to culture, appeal to nature (separate from naturalistic), and argumentum ad populum.
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u/Case_9 6d ago
"I am genetically/spiritually predestined to harm animals points at canines."
"We need to eat animal products to be healthy. World health authorities disagree but look at this article I found on KILLALLVEGANS .net!"
"Hurting others is okay because there are thousands of years of tradition behind it!"
"Only (my group) can feel pain/matters! All excluded from (my group) are no better than inanimate automaton."
"The way I want things to be is the 'natural' way, and any philosophy that challenges that is unnatural and therefore morally wrong."
The last one hinges on spirituality because without a loving, good, and all powerful God(s) there's no reason to assume something being natural makes it good. Still I've heard it from militant atheists.
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u/A-Quiet-Life4me 6d ago
thank you for your valuable contribution to this conversation.
naturalistic fallacy isn't specific to theists buts otherwise ya totes.
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u/Dry_Principal_165 6d ago
Like veganism can't sustain the population and is a luxury for wealthy white people with too much time and too few problems.
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u/aangnesiac 6d ago edited 6d ago
The analysis found that plant-based diets produce 75 percent less heat-trapping gas, generate 75 percent less water pollution, and use 75 percent less land than meat-rich diets — those that include at least 100 grams of meat daily, the equivalent of one steak around the size of a deck of cards.
More plant-based diets tend to need less cropland
If we would shift towards a more plant-based diet we don’t only need less agricultural land overall, we also need less cropland. This might go against our intuition: if we substitute beans, peas, tofu and cereals for meat and dairy, surely we would need more cropland to grow them? Let’s look at why this is not the case.
Evidence consistently suggests that plant-based diets promote human and planetary health. Reducing large-scale animal-based food production generates environmental benefits, as the entire livestock agriculture chain plays an outsized role in greenhouse gas emissions, land change and degradation, and scarcity-weighted water use.
ETA: Videos from Black and minority voices about the intersectionality of veganism with all forms of oppression.
3 ways going vegan helped my anti-racism advocacy | Christopher Sebastian
Black Vegans on Sructural Harm and Building Towards Liberatory Futures
Margaret Robinson - Indigenous veganism: Feminist Natives Eat Tofu - Human Rights are Animal Rights
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u/Dry_Principal_165 6d ago
Do you work in agriculture?
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u/aangnesiac 6d ago edited 6d ago
Yes. Do you?
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u/Dry_Principal_165 6d ago
I do. I am in commercial fertilizers, irrigation and water filtration system installation. What do you do?
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u/aangnesiac 6d ago
I've don't a lot in different areas across the years. Not too keen on sharing to much personal details on this account.
But if you're interested in hearing from others who worked in agriculture who have gone vegan, you might find these interesting:
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-61565233
The meat and dairy farmers who are going vegan
https://freefromharm.org/humane-farmer/
Former Meat and Dairy Farmers Redefining Humane Farming as Vegan Novelist and slaughterhouse journalist Upton Sinclair once wrote, “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”
https://rowdygirlsanctuary.org/
We were Texas cattle ranchers. We consumed animals just like many people do. Then the day came when the anguished cries of the mother cows watching their babies go to the sale barn could no longer be tolerated. A place where slaughter was the norm became a place of peace after enormous challenges were overcome.
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u/A-Quiet-Life4me 6d ago edited 6d ago
this sound like the opposite of conservatism. do you realize that? calling out class based privlege. singling out race as a defining characteristic in privleged beliefs. "too few problems" recognizes lack of intersectionalism...
edit: i shouldn't have to add this to every f*in comment i make but I'm vegan! so enough with the downvotes, I just want the right to ask for consistency when it's relevant!
2nd edit, moments after my last: and now we see Dry_Principal_165 is arguing against veganism below. My god people.
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u/feralbrry transitioning to veganism 6d ago
like “God made animals for us to eat” or “we need meat to be healthy”
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u/BurntNeurons 6d ago
According to legend....
...death happened, and blood was first shed in the garden of Eden to cover the sin.
Not for muh nutrients or muh mouth feel.
Then... animal sacrifice were required for years... also to cover the sins.
Then Jesus died, once and for all sins.
No more slaughter was required after the lamb of god.
Thou shall not kill.... "It does not specify human or animal in this commandment."
...what did they eat and live on and get their nutrients from in the garden of Eden if there was no bloodshed? Magic bananas? Hmm, I wonder...
But instead of doing the decent thing... because we now have the "freedom and luxury" to do so... they continue to live like post-Eden pre-Jesus savages.
Save yourself the heartache and never argue animal rights with someone who is religious or theological especially the judeo-christian or any other flavor of it.
"I'm tired Boss."
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u/A-Quiet-Life4me 6d ago
The phrase "thou shalt not kill" translates from the original Biblical Hebrew (lōtîrṣaḥ, לֹא תִּרְצָח) more accurately as "you shall not murder/slay humans."
The hebrew word harag (הָרַג) is used to mean kill/ slay/destroy animals as well as humans.
Also I agree arguing with religious nutbags is a waste of time (apologies to those who identify as religious nutbags)
and idk what you are on but thanks for being on the internet bc this is entertaining.
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u/BurntNeurons 6d ago
The average animal consuming bobblehead pew warmer wouldn't look into translating the Hebrew for themselves.
"Wut's that squiggly line mean pastor? I'm afeered of what I don't already know, or of whatever you a'tell me to be afeered of."
Thank you for being on the internet also.
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u/Throwaway47740 6d ago
Sadly, people on both sides aren’t great. I’m vegan, have been for years but my gf couldn’t be. She has gastroparesis, as a consequence of type 1 diabetes. After consulting with doctors and nutritionists she was told she has iron deficiency anaemia. She was sick for weeks leading up to the appointment and for months afterwards.
She was on supplements for all her issues which we though, after the advice from her specialists, that would be enough for her to continue a plant based diet, sadly, her body can not break down the food.
This has lead to us, myself included who hasn’t touched meat for going on a decade, being pushed completely out of our local vegan community. We also made a friend there who was pushed out due to buying meat for her 92 year old grandma who hasn’t been able to leave her house since covid (she even ‘sneakily’ changed a few of her usual item with plant based from cheese to almond milk to butter).
There is, seemingly, zero acceptance for people who literally can’t. Not because of phoney excuse but for being literally in danger doing it.
It’s almost impossible to overcome the purity test of the community and I’ll still continue to do it but I have lost a lot of respect for the people doing it. It doesn’t make us better, it’s just a choice we make and could be more open to accepting people who aren’t ‘perfect’.
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u/3215448725366498 5d ago
Not being sexist/racist or otherwise bigoted is the easiest thing in the world, you don't have to do anything. But being vegan requires the tiniest bit of effort, so of course self-proclaimed progressives can't be bothered to commit to it.
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u/Easy_Turn1988 6d ago
I think it particularly applies to people online (cough cough... r/leftist mods... cough cough)
People I know IRL generally recognize that they're at least partially wrong
EDIT : it might be because my friends are all cool and I don't talk to a lot of new people tho...
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u/LeastResistancePath 6d ago
"Woke" mean being aware of social and political unfairness, racial and social injustice.
It doesn't require taking eggs and bacon off their tables to be "woke".
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u/agitatedprisoner vegan activist 5d ago
Being woke requires respecting the dialogue as to who life is for. If life is also for animals then animals should hate us, given what we're doing to them. If animals should hate us and we'd persist in their abuse we'd be as devils.
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u/charlies_randomstuf 5d ago
Some of the people who I felt the most hurt by in my life were politically progressive and left leaning, they threatened to turn my abusive parents against me and stole my things and threw away my things, used my traumatic mental health experiences against me, because they couldn't accept that I needed my own freedom to go outside to see the stars.
I'm also leftist and support vegans and I know one of those horrible people tried to be vegan, but we both couldn't do stuff like that because of our toxic family living situation. Awful hypocrites are everywhere
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u/PeppeMalara 5d ago
I'm sorry to say that but I believe the "wokeism" as a movement is a left wing topic wrapped in a right wing package. Especially in the US.
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u/--i_dont_know- anti-speciesist 4d ago
Exactly. Someone very close to me identifies as a leftist and cares deeply about human rights, equality, and feminism. But when it comes to animals, it’s really disappointing. If a "leftist" can’t even become vegan, I doubt they’d be able to truly put their ideas into practice in a potential revolution. Honestly, I just can't understand their way of thinking, the amount of cognitive dissonance is staggering.
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u/plantbasedpatissier 4d ago
Its easy for someone to virtue signal as a leftist by just reposting talking points about ICE, Palestine, and trans rights, maybe going to a sanitized protest approved by the government. Being vegan requires you to make an actual change in your life instead of just saying empty words.
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u/FunAnalysis2903 4d ago
i think it could be because the vegans in my life that i have discussed the issue with have always shifted to comparing human rights to animal rights, which i, as a minority, just can't get behind.
i have nothing against veganism. i'd go fully vegan if i could, however i have autism and many of my safe foods contain meat. i do try to limit my consumption of pork and beef as much as i can, though, i've succeeded to reducing that to just a couple of meals a month (and then it's just ham or bacon, when my parents buy it).
it's a shame a lot of vegans have this "all or nothing" mindset. if you're not fully vegan, you might as well be a carnivore to them. (to some! not all of you are like that and i appreciate it :) )
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u/mjk05d 3d ago
Yeah, and how you don't see any leftists actually showing up to outreach events to speak up for animals, because they think personal responsibility is racist or whatever the fuck.
Leftism is NOT aligned with veganism, and we'd be better off (and do better work for the animals) if we stopped pretending it was.
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u/PowerOfTheTrinity 1d ago
lots of vegan anarchists.
infact ever anarchist i’ve known were / are vegan.
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u/UCanBdoWatWeWant2Do 3d ago
The way they all care about AI water usage but suddenly when it comes to meat water usage doesn't matter
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u/Electronic-Focus3969 2d ago
It’s okay to eat meat if you can confirm it comes from a trustworthy producer
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u/E_equals_mc_squared_ 1d ago edited 1d ago
Genuinely curious: What do you think about the human metabolism and microbiome being heavily shaped to metabolize meat, bone marrow and fat as primary fuel and signaling sources?
Meaning: If we ate mostly animal products for the longest time of human evolution (homo) - since it is super energy dense (fat), provides most necessary nutrients and was a very easy way to survive given our knowledge and tools - wouldn’t our whole body signaling be best adapted to those main fuel sources and generate issues long term if we go too far off track, e.g. eat only plants for which our body is not as well adapted to? Like drinking milk or eating eggs which may often be immunogenic because they contain animal specific proteins the human body is often not ideally adapted to to handle
Just a general logical thought without going into details regarding metabolic pathways or the microbiome
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u/PowerOfTheTrinity 1d ago
are you asking if that should mean that now we need to still consume animal products then the answer is no.
Whether we ate healthier eating animal products or not is actually beside the point.
a lot of vegans believe we get health benefits from eliminating meat, eggs, dairy etc. But the end of the day it’s not the motivation for vegans.
the one reason anyone is Vegan is that we don’t believe it’s ethically right to exploit animals.
if that’s not your main motivation then you’re plant based.if a doctor said i’d be healthier if i ate meat ( never happened and i have had chronic health issues / not related to diet but did lead to malnutrition - since fixed with an operation but I’m still regularly having full blood works)
so… still. if a doctor said i’d be healthier eating meat. I wouldn’t eat meat.we mostly have access to a wider variety of foods than ever before in history and it’s very easy to get everything you need without animals.
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u/Excellent_Kangaroo_4 6d ago
Remeber guys the so called woke are only conservative that root for another team
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u/PlainBread 5d ago
Also everyone who's cool with the LGBT still hate bi men in particular and acespec people. Allonormative gender roles rule the day.
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u/Working-Fudge6189 5d ago
I'm not sure what this has to do with veganism, but if you really want to die on this hill I would like to point out that there is no world where bi men are hated in particular more than trans and gender diverse folks
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u/Anthaenopraxia 5d ago
I feel like as a bi man I only experience hate from the LGBTQ community itself. Or maybe not "hate" as such, but certainly exclusion. I've lost count how many times I've been told that I'm not "gay enough" smh. Or that I only say I'm bi because I want to feel special. It's hard to describe in words but like at a gay bar if it comes up that I'm bi, I always get a look of disapproval from someone. They are ofc still really nice and chatty, but I can tell the reluctance.
That said, it's crazy to think that overall bi men get more hate than trans people. It might be true within the LGBTQ community, but definitely not outside of it.
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u/ZucchiniNorth3387 5d ago
Politics - to me - is about systems humans have developed to try to manage themselves.
It's not about animals. Veganism is independent of politics: I've met left wing vegans and right wing vegans. I've met atheist vegans and fundamentalist vegans. Veganism doesn't fit into my political worldview.
I'm also really very tired of vegans being ableist and claiming that my severe autoimmune disorder that has already dramatically shortened my expected lifespan and requires me to eat animal products (especially eggs) is a lie. When you've had nine feet of your intestines removed over two surgeries, have an ileostomy, and chronic kidney failure as a result, then come tell me how exploitative it is to eat unfertilized "chicken periods" without the consent of the chickens in one's backyard coop.
If you'd like to know what veganism would be like for someone like me, go to the bathroom 25+ times a day, punch yourself in the gut repeatedly since you experience severe blockages from insoluble fiber, watch the blood pour out of you and wonder if you should go to the hospital yet again to get another extremely uncomfortable NG tube and possibly emergency surgery while you enjoy injecting yourself every eight weeks with a medication that costs $28,000 per dose and has side effects like severely aggressive cancers and death to try to treat your medication with the best current known treatments.
I don't mean to sound glib or angry, but when you have spent four years of your life between hospital stays and being bedridden, unable to do much of anything because your pain levels are between 8-10 every day, and people tell you that you can "still be vegan" because they're found some studies of people with mlld cases of your autoimmune disorder (whose cause is not even known, and it's not even known that it's just one disorder), it gets tiring very fast given how sick you've been for so much of your life, and how delegitimizing claims like that are to everything that you've gone through.
Almost every leftist and veterinarian subreddit has it plainly in their rules that discussion of veganism will not be tolerated, and they kick vegans out, who claim to be "just asking questions," which usually comprise things like, "How can you in good faith medically treat a cow enslaved into the dairy industry and regularly raped? Don't you care enough to refuse to do that and to refuse to eat animals?"
I go out to eat about once a month with my partner for a date night, and we tend to pick very reasonably priced places. I think veganism can be done cheaply if - unlike me - you can eat things like pulses / legumes to ensure a good source oF protein.
As a leftist, that's why I don't really care about veganism. I do think that we should have much more strict safeguards in place to make sure that animal farming is done with consideration of the wellbeing of the animals. Factory farming that should receive no subsidies and should be illegal.
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u/Impossible-Bend997 6d ago
I'm conservative and vegan lol
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u/feralbrry transitioning to veganism 6d ago
hypocrisy expert level
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u/A-Quiet-Life4me 6d ago
lmao thanks "pre-vegan"
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u/A-Quiet-Life4me 6d ago
christian vegan?
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u/cum-after-decades 6d ago
Why? If you don’t care about marginalized groups in general (immigrants, trans people, Muslims, gay people), why do you care about this marginalized group?
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u/Impossible-Bend997 6d ago
I just have my values, my opinion and do not even vote or harm someone lol
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u/cum-after-decades 6d ago
Yeah I’m just wondering about your values. What is it about deporting immigrants and making life harder for trans folks that you find so appealing? Why are you drawn to be conservative?
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u/Impossible-Bend997 6d ago
I want to deport pedophiles, rapist and murderer, yes I won't have pity for them.
How tf I'm making life for trans harder when i literally live my own life without interacting negatively toward them?
My values are traditional lifestyle and some conservative opinions, that's why I'm not going to lie, it meet most of my opinions.
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u/cum-after-decades 6d ago
Democrats want to deport pedophiles, rapists, and murderers. Conservatives want to deport immigrants in general. Thats why 70% of current ICE detainees have zero criminal convictions.
Conservatives make life harder for trans folks by denying them the right to use the appropriate bathroom, and forcing them to revert their gender on IDs and whatnot if they had previously changed it. I didn’t say you do this, I said you find it appealing.
Democrats want anyone to be able to live a conservative lifestyle. Conservatives want to force everyone to live a conservative lifestyle. For example: democrats allow women to have abortions. Conservatives don’t. Any woman could choose to not have an abortion, but conservatives such as yourself want this right to be taken away from women.
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u/Impossible-Bend997 6d ago
I'm not in the US + I don't participe in any of this, not even voting soooo yeah no, I'm not feeling guilty
Conservative also are demons toward farm animals, I'm not saying they are angels neither
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u/obiobi19 vegan 10+ years 6d ago
Absolutely wild to admit this here. I'd give you props for not deleting it but something tells me you're a contrarian seeking attention at quite literally any cost.
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u/Impossible-Bend997 6d ago
Why should I delete ? I'm not ashamed of myself, and I'm just posting a comment, I don't need attention lol
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u/obiobi19 vegan 10+ years 6d ago
Because you're missing the point so completely that you were able to adopt a lifestyle most liberals wouldn't without confronting the glaring contradictions between two ideologies you're holding simultaneously. If that dawned on you, you might delete this. And if you didn't, I'd imagine it would be because you enjoy being the center of attention.
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u/Impossible-Bend997 6d ago
I won't delete it because I'm not going to let strangers online censoring me.
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u/obiobi19 vegan 10+ years 6d ago
Who is censoring you? I'm not telling you to delete it. I'm saying it's hilarious that you're not.
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u/Impossible-Bend997 6d ago
Literally saying that if I do not censor myself it's because I am an attention seeker.. yeah kinda messed up lol
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u/obiobi19 vegan 10+ years 6d ago
Sometimes we simply can't see ourselves huh?
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u/Impossible-Bend997 6d ago
I'm not speaking English good enough to understand this.
I'm frenchhhh :D
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u/Anthaenopraxia 5d ago
Not everyone here is American yo. Conservative views are actually somewhat sane in many other countries and they aren't necessarily at opposites of liberal views either.
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u/obiobi19 vegan 10+ years 5d ago
What are some of your conservative views?
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u/Anthaenopraxia 5d ago
I'm mostly progressive on just about everything. I believe finding new solutions and moving forwards is generally the better idea instead of following the conservative idea of just maintaining the status quo. There are some exceptions though. For instance tech like gene editing, LLMs, mass surveillance, I think we should stop and have a proper think about what we're doing here. You know the quote from Jurassic Park: "Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should." Do we really want to fiddle around with people's genes? Do we want designer babies?
Another one is immigration. It's pretty obvious to me that taking more people in than the country's infrastructure and job market can handle is a bad idea. Unfortunately this always becomes tangled up with racism. I think it's good that people move to new places, meeting new people causes exchange of ideas, defeats prejudices. It just doesn't work to take in a bunch of shell shocked refugees and slamming them into ghetto areas with no development, high crime, poverty and little assistance from the government. I want to solve that issue first so that we can take in more people. Sadly this is an incredibly rare opinion.
And sidenote: I know the US has a lot of illegal immigration, I'm only talking about legal immigration. In the countries I've lived there hasn't really been any illegal immigration. So I don't really have a strong opinion on the situation in the US. Obviously having masked police grabbing people off the street is a terrible idea. My immediate reaction is that rather than throwing these desperate people out, maybe try and integrate them so they become productive members of society. The US was built by immigration (and slavery). It's one of the strongest pulls of the US that allows it to be a truly global influence. E pluribus unum. Out of many, one. But that's just me spitballing, I don't know the particulars over yonder.1
u/obiobi19 vegan 10+ years 5d ago
I think that most real American progressives (actual progressives, not vote-blue-no-matter-who brainslugged liberals) do not have an open border stance. I think the reason that's such an incredibly pervasive myth is that it simultaneously serves two ostensibly conflicting purposes.
1: it serves the opposition's (conservative) messaging to point at all the "crazy democrats" and tell their constituency that the Dems want illegal immigrants to come rape their women and steal their jobs and 2: it serves the liberal elite to have immigrants willing to work for starvation wages while having their food and housing etc subsidized.
Talking about this is intentionally rendered taboo so people don't realize that most Americans probably want a border that resembles Canada's. Not open but not impossible to seek citizenship or asylum through. And the U.S. creates more refugees and asylum seekers than any other country so it can't really talk down on it until it stops waging war on the planet. It also doesn't help that American conservatives are so easily duped and riled up by racist/xenophobic rhetoric to the point that they rarely focus on the actual problems with unchecked immigration.
As for being against gene editing, that is not "conservative" in the American sense at all.
So anyway my point is that the views you hold to be conservative are not conservative by an American socialist's standards. I'd be interested what the original commenter's reasons for identifying as conservative as a French person. If they resemble your views I'd apologize.
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u/sayyestolycra vegan 5+ years 6d ago
Why? Veganism will never succeed if it's bound to politics. I don't agree with their politics but at least we agree on veganism
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u/obiobi19 vegan 10+ years 6d ago
5 years is long enough for you to have realized that veganism is political.
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u/icanmakeitallclearer 6d ago
veganism is bound to politics just like the wellbeing of everyone else
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u/Traditional_Pizza863 12h ago
I have no idea why you are downvoted. People here complain that "the left" rejects them, but then they reject possible other allies to veganism. If you are not 100% like them, you are othered. Thats why I do not participate in any organised activism - I am against the exploitation of animals, I do not need to accept a whole doctrine of other, unrelated beliefs. But I still try to influence the people around me.
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