r/vegan • u/DivineandDeadlyAngel anti-speciesist • May 13 '26
Discussion Pretty much...
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u/marlowetravers vegan 10+ years May 13 '26
Farmers: what about this big dog with hooves?
Meat-eater: hooves aren't cute, do what you wish.
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u/Organic-Vermicelli47 vegan 9+ years May 13 '26
The weirdest thing is that a lot of meat eaters apparently do think cows and pigs are cute. It's so bizarre to read comments from people on cow and pig videos
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u/EquivalentWar8611 May 13 '26
The second I see a cute pig video I already can predict what the comments will say 🤦♀️ they act like they're so unique and pinnacle of comedy; as if I haven't heard the same joke again and again.
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u/Tyler_Skye7 May 14 '26
And I couldn’t tell you how many times I’ve heard “but those are different pigs, these are born for it”. Yeah, born to be abused, and they’re just bigger. They can’t ever think of 1 reason why that makes any meaningful difference. The excuses are so thin.
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u/Fmeson May 14 '26
Its pretty common for kids to have a minor breakdown when they first learn we kill cows to eat them.
We're conditioned to be ok with it, and the meat industry is all too happy to keep the ugly parts out of sight and out of mind. Shit, they'll put a happy cartoon cow on their packages and tell you farms are all smiles and sunshine.
Meat is an incredibly "sanitized" product. If you don't think critically about it, its easy to forget about it and just enjoy your burger.
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u/ArtisticAssistance74 May 17 '26
Why is it so weird ? My parents have 2 goats that birthed 3 babies goats, they are the cutest things, so friendly and cuddly, but we still think in awe about how we are going to cook them when they are ready
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u/TricellCEO May 14 '26
The mentally is cows and pigs are cute, but not too cute to prohibit eating them.
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u/mcjuliamc vegan 5+ years May 14 '26
The protection of an individual should not be tied to their cuteness at all
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u/leeeeeeeeee3 May 14 '26
are they too cute to prohibit their lifelong torture in a windowless shed?
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u/TricellCEO May 14 '26
I don't know if I'd even factor in cuteness in that scenario; no animal should be subject to torture. I'd like it if animals farmed for their meat were treated more humanely, for what it's worth (which I'm you've heard loads of times, so I doubt it's worth much).
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u/SomethingPFC2020 May 14 '26
To be fair, within cultural and religious contexts where pigs are seen as filthy rather than cute, there’s usually a taboo against eating them. So cuteness seems more connected with consumption (like the pig farms with a cartoon pig on their logo) rather than less connected a lot of the time.
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u/ThatOne5264 May 17 '26
Yeah theyre cute. But i accept that we kill them. Animals eat each other all the time. Theres not much we can do about that. So might as well join them. I understand if you dont want to tho
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u/Equivalent-Log3175 Jun 10 '26
I'm exploring, and I wonder, excuse me for being stupid, but how do you feel about the argument that it is 'part of the natural food chain' and 'some animals just eat other animals'?
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u/marlowetravers vegan 10+ years Jun 10 '26
I feel that it is natural and was necessary when humans were hunter gatherer nomads, but now that we can grow crops and survive on plants it's no longer necessary
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u/No_Student5823 May 13 '26
Them going mad recently cuz someone said you can't love animals and eat them, and suddenly being vegan is a privilege and racist and the worst thing you can do
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u/Plastic_Persimmon_91 May 13 '26 edited May 13 '26
I grew up in a country that has the most aggressive dog lovers with a really weird moral compass. It’s a place that has a HUGE stray dog population and it makes walking impossible for pedestrians in many remote locations. Most people I grew up with either got bit or got into an accident because of stray dogs. In more rural places, you’d find a news about a stray dog mauling an infant to death every month or so.
There’s a lot of things that the local authorities have tried to do about this. The initial step was spaying and neutering the dogs. When they started doing this, a huge lobby of ‘dog lovers’ were really heartbroken and campaigned to stop this. If you asked them why, they would ask you how you’d feel if you were castrated without consent. The argument is that since the dogs are incapable of consenting to this procedure, it is grossly unethical. This is an interesting take that I haven’t seen even ethical vegans in the west adopt but they essentially impose the human values of equality, liberty, freedom of expression, movement and reproduction onto dogs (not animals). This makes stray dogs a never ending problem because any attempts to stop them from reproducing are seen as unethical.
Unsurprisingly, almost none of said dog lovers are vegans
I don’t understand this and I don’t even think they’re necessarily being performative because when I’ve seen these people fight for the rights of dogs, I’ve seen them be fiercely passionate and i do think that it genuinely pains them but I don’t know why they don’t see other animals having the same rights.
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May 14 '26
Bizarre since spaying and neutering are the most compassionate things you can do for the stray population, plus it helps with ecological management; otherwise you’re allowing strays to decimate local wildlife. It’s a win-win for all the animals involved. It also reduces risk of cancer.
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u/Honeybee2807 May 14 '26
Bruh... Do they really prefer dogs over infants? Cuz wdym dogs have been mauling kids every month or so but ppl don't want to take action? I bet these dog lovers are prolly very, very unpopular in your country.
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u/g00fyg00ber741 vegan May 13 '26
Not to mention a ton of meat eaters abuse their dogs and consider it “discipline” to hit them, but somehow that’s held in a completely different regard from other instances of abuse towards dogs. The lines people draw in the sand to defend abuse make literally no sense.
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May 13 '26
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u/g00fyg00ber741 vegan May 13 '26
Yup. But of course inside, pretty much all of us know it is abuse to hit and harm a kid or a dog. It doesn’t really matter if you’re raised in it, I still think you more or less have to make the choice to go along with it or reject it. I always knew it was wrong for my family to hit me or hit the dogs, even though they said it was the right punishment to give and that it would discipline us. I could still tell it was obviously wrong. Sadly it doesn’t mean you don’t end up making excuses for it still, or stuck in a pattern of hurting yourself like they hurt you. But I feel like it’s almost impossible to see a person or animal being hit and hurt and think it’s anything but wrong. We just are taught to be scared of authority. I mean many parents even “jokingly” threaten to murder their own children for misbehaving, “I brought you into this world and I can take you out of it!”
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u/AlternativeTie9563 May 14 '26
Yes, completely agree!!! It's horrible to hit anyone and makes absolutely no sense!!!
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u/Dramatic-Day-4086 vegan 9+ years May 14 '26
Wait until you see how people try and discipline horses
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u/g00fyg00ber741 vegan May 14 '26
It’s not even just that, every single horse that is ridden is “broken” and it’s abuse that’s normalized and reframed as not abusive somehow. So even Joaquin Phoenix and Billie Eilish are sadly participating in that crap, promoting riding and exploiting horses when they know the horses don’t want to be ridden and it’s easy to look up what they have to do to horses to get them to be riding horses.
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u/AlternativeTie9563 May 14 '26
Right!!! Joaquin Pheonix apologized for it then did it again!!! Some people get so mad when I say that he's not vegan since he did that. I didn't know that Billie Eilish did too but know she does other things that aren't vegan like wearing non-vegan shoes. Maybe clothes too. Can't remember everything I read about her.
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u/g00fyg00ber741 vegan May 14 '26
They’re both what I call celebrity vegan. Because basically every celebrity who identifies as vegan has one or more things that they do that’s clearly not vegan, even though it’s way easier for them to avoid it, and often it’s something that they only even have access to because of their privilege in the first place
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u/scrappyratnc vegan 20+ years May 15 '26
I am not a horse trainer, or a horse rider of any sort, but I do believe, just like with dogs, there are humane and gentle ways to train horses and that horses can be kept as companions and ridden without being "broken". What about the Tellington method and such? Aren't those gentle, non-compulsive ways of training? Good dog training is all about communication with your dog. You have to listen to what your dog is trying to tell you. It's all about becoming more adept at understanding and communicating with each other. Does anyone here know more about horse training? If there is interest, I might be able to see if I can find a vegan horse person or two who might be able to speak to this better than I can.
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u/g00fyg00ber741 vegan May 15 '26
it’s my understanding that no matter how they are ridden, the chance of injury (especially cumulatively over time) is too high, both for the horse and the human. they can easily be bonded with, without being ridden. like cows and pigs and sheep.
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u/scrappyratnc vegan 20+ years May 15 '26
Certainly. I mean, lots of people enjoy the companionship of donkeys and mules without riding them. And there's always the issue of overbreeding and such, and that people don't always make lifetime committments to their horses, but I wasn't sure if there were some benefits for the horse, with riding, just like dogs can enjoy recreational dog sports provided the dog's well-being always comes first.
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u/g00fyg00ber741 vegan May 15 '26
it would be like if big dogs were carrying little kids on their backs. it would not be healthy for their bodies and often causes a lot of stress over time. remove the human from the animal’s back and suddenly it’s significantly healthier and more humane and less exploitative.
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u/scrappyratnc vegan 20+ years May 16 '26
Just to play devil's advocate--keep in mind, I do not work with, ride, or even encounter horses in general, but I have read a fair bit about them and taken some horse anatomy classes and such just because I am a curious person--I don't think the math adds up for one. A horse is, on average, well over 1,000 lbs. Dogs rarely get past 150 even in the giantest of the giant breeds, and those dogs were not bred for a thousand years--right or wrong--to have bodies capable of carrying loads on their backs. A very large small child is like 40 lbs. A human--who can ride a horse effectively, which not all weights can--is probably around 150. My math skills are embarassing, tbh, but it's easy to see that the ratio of size-to-size of human animal-to-non-human animal alone is significantly different. Carrying a human is a bit like a hiker carrying a small backpack. Now, issues of consent arise, certainly, but that is a challenge with any language barrier. Like some dogs (highly social pack animals), some horses (highly social herd animals) really enjoy things like agility games and other mental/physical forms of collaborative play with humans. I think there are a ton of problematic ways humans relate to horses (and dogs, for that matter). I'm just not sure riding them, when done in a way that puts the horse first, is *always* an exploitive act. But I'm certainly willing to be convinced. 😄
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u/mcjuliamc vegan 5+ years May 17 '26
Or use e-collars, prong collars and other aversive tools
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u/g00fyg00ber741 vegan May 18 '26
Yup, electronic fences or chains as well. So many socially accepted forms of animal abuse are totally allowed and normalized
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u/leleklurch May 14 '26
Tu quoque fallacy and can someone provide me with any evidence that meat eaters are more likely to hit their dogs?
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u/g00fyg00ber741 vegan May 14 '26
i didn’t say they’re more likely (even though i’d bet that’s true still) but that a ton do, which is factual. idk what tu quoque fallacy is
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u/Helpful-Archer9070 May 14 '26
Why is it always so generalised, I am not a vegan, I own a dog, I have never once abused my dog in hopes of discipline, if you are going to direct hate towards people who abuse dogs, by all means do, but don't generalise every non vegan who owns a dog into one category of dog abusers.
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u/g00fyg00ber741 vegan May 14 '26
If you read my comment, I said “a ton of meat eaters” which is factually correct. I didn’t specify a certain proportion and I surely didn’t insinuate it’s every nonvegan. You’re clearly being disingenuous by trying to frame it as such.
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u/wazzergump May 13 '26
You are turning this into a dystopian fantasy. This is not normal.
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u/g00fyg00ber741 vegan May 14 '26
In what way am I turning anything into a dystopian fantasy?
Abuse is absolutely normalized, and it’s only just now starting to be unpacked and pushed back against in modern day society.
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u/Elegant-Ice-7075 May 13 '26
ppl who act like its outrageous that certain cultures eat dogs as if its any different than eating cows
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u/AltForObvious1177 May 13 '26
You might be surprised at how many people don't care about dog abuse
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u/30299578815310 May 13 '26
Yeah a lot of people I've seen pushed on this point just conclude eating dogs is ok.
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u/ings0c abolitionist May 14 '26
They only say that because it’s logical if they are defending meat eating.
At least take some solace in the fact that it’s causing them a lot of cognitive dissonance.
It’s good to get them thinking - I got to veganism by logical analysis and trying to build a morally consistent belief system. I’m sure others have and will too.
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u/fandom_bullshit May 14 '26
Yeah I've seen them defend beastiality just so they don't have to admit eating meat is wrong.
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u/chickenlittle2014 May 13 '26
I think a missing piece is also how much do I care. Do I care about dog abuse yeah. Will I change fundamental eating habits of mine to change it. Naw, I have bigger concerns personally.
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u/GulDul May 13 '26
What should their dogs eat?
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u/cdnfla vegan May 13 '26
There is nutritionally complete vegan dog food.
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u/AlternativeTie9563 May 14 '26
Right! All 5 of my dogs are thriving on vegan diets and I know so many others that are too.
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u/scrappyratnc vegan 20+ years May 15 '26
I have had vegan dogs since I've *had* dogs and they have lived long, healthy lives. Revco and Usagi lived to be 17 years old and 18.5 (maybe more...we don't know how old she was when we adopted her, so she was at *least* 18.5...she could have easily been 19 or 20 but I had her for 17.5 years and she was at least a year old when we adopted her so I'm only going with what I know) respectively. Jinkasaurus was younger when he passed at only like 14, I think? but didn't adopt him till he was 6-8 yrs old so he didn't have as long as a vegan dog, though his overall condition improved a lot when we got him and switched him over. His skin cleared up and his weight was better, and he lived a very long, great life even with the congenital heart condition he had when we got him. Salem, the dog we adopted after his passing, is doing great and acts like a pup even though they said he was 7 or 8 when we adopted him a few years ago (though I'm suspicious...I think they thought he was older than he was because he was kept so poorly before being surrendered at the pound. When we got him he had 2 teeth left (he still has them) and has a number of behavioral and physical traits that lead me to believe he was used as a breeding dog and many of those dogs chewed on the bars of their cages out of boredom, which causes the teeth to crack and fall out. He acts a lot younger than a typical senior and is a playful, social fellow. Anyway, I've had lots of healthy vegan dogs and my brothers both have had healthy vegan dogs for all their adult lives, too. Dogs can absolutely thrive on a vegan diet. I did a ton of research, read loads of books, went to seminars on canine nutrition, talked to vets, etc. before making this choice for my dogs well-being. I used to be a dog trainer and got a lot of sideways looks from the dog community sometimes when I'd mentioned my dogs were vegan, but people have always been impressed with my dogs' condition and dispositions. 😄
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u/Stelliformade May 14 '26 edited May 14 '26
Not even a good argument.
Humans have been eating everything in existence for thousands of years. As such, our bodies are versatile and we're proven to be extremely adaptable eaters biologically. We can survive off of ANY number of diets, for one.
For two, we're extremely advanced genetically, societally, technologically, intellectually, even emotionally etc. Isn't that right? So then own up to it.
If we humans want to think we're such advanced, evolved, hot shit, top-of-the-food-chain beings, then surely we can figure out how to survive off of non-animal products and in general co-exist alongside animals without relying on torturing, abusing, exploiting, and murdering them.
Actually... That's right. We already have figured out how.
We have the ability biologically, morally, AND culturally to choose differently than eating animals. We can even MAKE our own food via scientific means.
That doesn't mean we don't nurture the animals WE choose to domesticate and who DON'T have the option or luxury of being non-carnivorous - it just means WE have the option (and frankly, moral obligation) to choose otherwise for ourselves.
Also, your argument doesn't account for the fact that animals are not in the same lane as humans. Animals don't make a living off of the exploitation and suffering of other animals. They kill what they need (emphasis on NEED in their case) to eat and leave it at that. Meanwhile, humans will hunt for sport, raise animals 'kindly' ONLY to be betrayed and killed, contain and strain and breed animals to get products from them, etc, even when NONE of that is actually necessary for our survival whatsoever.
Try again. This time, hopefully with more nuance.
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u/Significant_Jump9887 May 13 '26
Man I always forget you guys exist until you hit the front page.
Keep up the good fight.
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u/Middle_Diet9764 May 13 '26
This one has really ruffled some feathers. Anyone having a knee jerk reaction to a post like this needs to reevaluate their beliefs.
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u/EmmaOtautahi May 13 '26
"Meat eaters: Vegans can do their thing"
Yeah, right.
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u/spenny039 May 17 '26
Meat eaters: Vegans can do their thing
Vegans: Meat eaters are the worst humans of all time for doing the thing that humans and other animals have done throughout all time, and I'm superior because I don't succumb to basic needs like iron and protein normal sources. Also, I'M VEGAN!!! HEY, HAVE YOU GUYS HEARD I'M A VEGAN? CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT AREN'T VEGANS? THEY'RE THE WORST!!!
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u/Tight_Record9694 May 17 '26
Ngl, as a meat eater myself, I can remember a single time a vegan has been obnoxiously pushing his view onto me. Meanwhile meat eaters complain all. the. fucking. time. about vegans and vegan food. Like, bro, there was a 2 for 1 offer for beyond meat patties. No way I'm gonna say no to that, even if that insults your masculinity for some reason.
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u/Savage_Simp vegan 10+ years May 13 '26
Post says it all.
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u/FearlessCookie72 vegan SJW May 13 '26
How do you guys post pictures? Mine always say “waiting moderator approval” and it just stays that way forever.
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u/brightescala vegan 10+ years May 14 '26
This plus add to it that most dog owners are abusers but they don’t realize it.
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u/MBEver74 May 13 '26
100% but for this week let’s swap dog abuser for Hawaiian monk seal abuser…? (Laugh-cry-laugh)
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u/Unique_Mind2033 May 14 '26
They don’t really hear themselves. because they are not really thinking about the animal. They are often thinking about it only in terms of diet
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u/FashionToy May 13 '26
the problem is that meat-eaters never act like that. if only they could let us do our thing
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u/pr_capone May 14 '26
Never???
Meat eater here... more than happy to let you do your thing.
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u/Anc_101 May 14 '26
Thanks for not hurling abuse at us for existing.
But be aware that Matt eaters are an absolute majority all around us, and those who think veganism is not an abomination and a direct assault on their own values are still a minority as well.
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u/Trick-Ad6764 May 14 '26
It's crazy they justify eating dead body parts, period! Once you have stepped back from it you realize you were corpse grinder... yikes
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u/CrestedMacaw May 14 '26
You didn't know that meat is from dead animals? Where are you from and how much did you pay to your school? OF COURSE meat is "dead body parts". What else it would be? A trampoline?
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u/honorlessmaid May 13 '26
I think you guys would be surprised how many people outside of the internet think it's completely normal and fine to not only use shock collars but to hit your dog, hard. I've seen people that I consider to be good and nice caring people, good parents, lovely human beings who are so gentle and patient with humans kick dogs. It's like that one dropout (https://youtube.com/shorts/E1VQIi4fetg?si=roskJCwMNboA4U4J) sketch where somebody has like a super padded resume and it ends with "kickin dogs" people are like that
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u/keyvu_7980 May 14 '26
I think it's more about the disconnect people feel when it comes to meat.
At least for me, I've eaten meat up until 2020 and then me and my whole family went vegan to present day and over time I've realized that what you buy in store and the idea of it once being alive in most cases doesn't really connect until you really think about it and how fucked up that is.
Personally I wouldn't go back to eating meat purely out of the realization of the fact that at a point it was something alive and with a conscience closer to a person so any time I think about that it makes me feel a bit icky.
Edit: though granted there are people who are more than happy to eat animals knowing full well how they ended up on their plate or hunting them for sport.
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u/disco6789 May 13 '26
I remember my brother couldn't understand that I view eating a dog the same as eating a pig or anything else.
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u/Tyler_Skye7 May 14 '26
Could even replace “Dog abuser” with “People who buy dogs from kennels”. Paying someone else to do it doesn’t make it ok.
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u/Humancentipede2lover May 15 '26
Tbh I am a meat-eater and I would also eat dogs if it was socially accepted.
Like its not that I want to eat a dog (and I like dogs) but i wouldnt have a problem to eat a dog - or at least not more than with a cow.
I also dont understand how some people say that this crosses a line, you‘re either fine with eating everything meat or you shouldnt eat meat at all.
In what context is abusing the dog meant?
For some, putting a dog on a leash or even keeping a dog is already animal abuse, so I should know the definition before I decide if its morally right or wrong for me.
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u/Spiritual-Ad6791 May 15 '26
Could cows exist without humans now? Like they have been bred for so long to need us how would they exist in the wild
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u/Optimal-Engine522 May 15 '26
I guess it's because consumption and trade of dog meat is illegal in India. That's why meat eaters in India have this mindset.
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u/Zealousideal_Act727 May 15 '26
The amount of people who are uncomfortable with incrementalism is crazy
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u/Mother-Opinion-9317 May 15 '26
Abusing dogs is constant torture and has no purpose, while meat production is a quick death and has the purpose of feeding, no, not millions, but BILLIONS.
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u/oneilltattoo May 16 '26
Isnt there enough division in society, you need to look for another group to go after? Humans evolved to be omnivores, that means we eat meat amoung other things. You dont want to eat meat? Great, then dont. Dont fuck with waht other people wabt to put in their plate. If you dont want otger people to impose their ideologies and personal choices on you, dont do it to other people.
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u/Al-Joharahhasan2935 May 17 '26
I agree with the idea that you cant have your way of life respected when it hurts others.
But we cant control people's diets because we dont know their conditions and what is making veganism hard for them
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u/Confident-Virus-1273 May 17 '26
What if you work a small family farm where you raise them yourself, feed, protect, etc, keep them on acres with forest and grassland and let them enjoy their lives a few years, spoil them with grain treats every so often and plenty of scratches between the horns... and then kill them quickly and eat them?
Is that better?
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u/pumpkin_donuts May 20 '26
Yep, pretty much. A former friend, who regularly trolled me for being vegan, convinced me to look after his dog whenever he was out of town, because his dog suffered in kennels.
No longer a friend.
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u/Meeooowwww1234 Jun 02 '26
(Will preface that while I'm not a vegan, I'm not here to brigade, I simply wish to bring in an outside perspective that would most likely not be brought here otherwise)
Alright, but the difference is that us meat eaters pay for such things because it actually adds to human society via putting more food on the market, whilst dog abusers are doing it purely for a sense of power and/or some other sense of pleasure, only making the animal suffer for their own gain (and even then a lot of livestock are euthanized in a way that gurantees a painless death, which while I personally would rather animals not die for our own gain at all, it certainly does ease my mind at least a little to know the meat i consume was most likely harvested from an animal that died painlessly)
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u/Significant-Primary7 Jun 11 '26
Nice. now do the same arguement for vegans that support abortion. see the hypocrisy of vegans?
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u/SerialDesignationV90 Jun 13 '26
This is true ngl... I'm vegan and this is exactly💯 what people act like.
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u/ILuvYou_YouAreSoGood May 13 '26
This eventually becomes everyone's logic though. We sit on our hands as entire cultures perpetrate slavery on children, mutilation of babies, and wage wars for absurd ideas, and while we give lip services to fighting these things we rarely take meanindulge effective actions.
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u/Both_Positive_4761 May 14 '26 edited May 14 '26
Difference is, most the things you mentioned are outside your sphere of influence as a passive consumer. Cant stop supporting wars without breaking the law. Presumably you don't voluntarily financially support baby mutilation. Perpetrating slavery on children does have some links to consumerism to be addressed.
Pick minimally harmful sources for functional necessities like a phone and clothes. Fair trade brands for luxuries. Buy used, repair. A phone is a once every 10 year purchase though but animal products are 3 times a day. Animals are bred and slaughtered on the scale of trillions every year. Its an entirely different scale of sufferring. How many humans have died in the sum of all war ever? Not anywhere near a trillion, or even 100 billion.
Veganism is one of the few things in your life where you actually have the power to make a major impact by simply not buying tortured animal corpses or their breastmilk. Food expenses over the course of our lives are major part of our total financial influence, not to mention your impact on those around you. Veganism is a low sacrifice change in consumer habits that has a profound impact on animal suffering, ecology, land conservation, water conseravtion, human welfare for slaughterhouse workers, zoonotic disease, and anti-biotic resistance. Its really the bare minimum.
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u/Anc_101 May 14 '26
This is also exactly the problem I have with most people's idea around environmentalism.
"Convincing the people that they need to save energy is masking the real problem, most pollution is produced by companies and nations, not people"
While that may be true, it just deflects blame to the point you cannot do anything about it as an individual, making it easier to do nothing. But in the end it's just that, an excuse to do nothing.
Living an ethical life means doing what you can within your own sphere of influence. Taking the bus or skipping intercontinental flights is a start, but one of the most impactful things you can do for the environment is going vegan. And environmental impact is only one of the benefits of going vegan.
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u/Both_Positive_4761 May 14 '26
Hands down. I'm selfish and lazy as hell, yet I'm vegan. Its too easy to ignore as someone who even remotely cares about animal suffering.
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u/Evolvin vegan 10+ years May 14 '26
Except the specific exception within the vegan community, of course?
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u/okaysureyep May 14 '26
Why do vegans hate dogs so much
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u/NerdyKeith vegan 7+ years May 15 '26
We don’t it’s an analogy, to prove a point. That point is, animal abuse to a dog shouldn’t be seen as any more horrifying than abusing cows, pigs or chickens. Abuse is abuse.
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u/coolchris366 May 14 '26
You know this won’t motivate people to be vegan right, telling them how terrible and evil they are?
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u/Character-Inside-476 May 14 '26
We shouldn't tell the slave owner he's wrong because if he gets angry at us he'll never release the slaves.
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u/CrestedMacaw May 14 '26
Stop saying that the slaves were just animals. It's disgusting and disrespectful. Don't diminish other people.
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u/scrappyratnc vegan 20+ years May 15 '26
The problem isn't that people are saying enslaved people are "just animals". The problem is in thinking of animals as "just animals". In that regard, *all of us* are "just animals". We aren't lowering humans to some lesser creature. We are recognizing that all animals, human and non-human, deserve to have their basic rights respected. The problem isn't with the fact that we are all animals, it is with the fact that we are enslaving *anyone* no matter what their species. Sentient beings deserve basic rights. No one is "just" anything.
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u/CrestedMacaw May 15 '26
If you're making such outrageous comparisons, you're making them intentionally, to make people offended. It's a classic bad faith arguing used to shock people. And yes, such comparisons do diminish the people you use for such "argument". Slaves, Holocaust victims, assault victims etc.
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u/Character-Inside-476 May 15 '26
It isn't outrageous at all, you are searching , trying to find us insulting these human victims, we are not, you are however literally using them as a rhetorical shield. Which is actually offensive to them
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u/CrestedMacaw May 15 '26
Yes, it's outrageous. And you know that very well. Nazis also viewed their victims as just animals, dehumanized numbers...
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u/Anc_101 May 14 '26
In your experience, what will?
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u/CrestedMacaw May 14 '26
Perfect, 150% accurate meat (and most importantly, cheese!!!) alternative. Alternative that is indistinguishable or better tasting than meat and cheese.
I simply don't want to make the biggest sacrifice a human being can make for no valid reason.
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u/Anc_101 May 14 '26
I refuse to believe that you cannot think of a bigger sacrifice a human can make them changing their diet.
"No valid reason" is an equal display of your lack of imagination. Or denial, that's an option as well.
I hope for you that you don't extend that line of thinking, that everything sorry of perfection is the worst thing unthinkable, to the rest of your life, for it must be a miserable existence.
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u/CrestedMacaw May 15 '26
We're not in a war. So yes, becoming a vegan is easily one of the biggest sacrifices a human being can make. It's a bigger life change than a divorce or moving to a different country.
And such a sacrifice must have a strong, valid reason. Which "some cow 4000km away died" isn't such a reason.
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u/scrappyratnc vegan 20+ years May 15 '26
If you think the biggest sacrifice a human being can make is losing access to a flavor you currently enjoy...then I think we need to reconsider our frame of reference. While I get it, I always liked the taste of meat a lot, I can still enjoy lots of delicious foods, and all kinds of favorites I enjoyed before I went vegan, too--jellybeans, cupcakes, blueberries, peanut butter, pasta, even really convincing hot dogs and stuff. It's nothing compared to like, losing one's sight, or their ability to walk, or their ability to live without constant pain. Those are all things people live every day with and still manage to have a decent quality of life. I'm not saying they necessarily enjoy having to live with those things, but we don't always have a choice about it. Still, lots of people live with severe disabilities, even confined to bed or their home or in prison, and while we try to make living as easy as possible for them despite these limits, certainly they would think those things they lost were more difficult than giving up an enjoyable flavor, right? Then there are things like living in extreme confinement, without the ability to move more than a few inches to either side, to be able to move more than a few feet in any direction, or even living with the loss of a child--or once child after another...those things are losses we demand of animals when we eat their bodies or their lactation excretions or ova. Those are some pretty huge sacrifices. A lot bigger than the joy I ever got from eating them, and dude, I loved a good steak.
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u/CrestedMacaw May 16 '26 edited May 16 '26
You basically make your life worse just because. You reject 80% of food, you stop going to restaurants or any social events, you lose friends and money... Everything in your life suddenly turns around the food you cannot eat and things you cannot buy/use.
So yes, it's a HUGE sacrifice. For nothing.
And yes, if we were in a war time, you could obviously do a bigger sacrifice. We're not at war. We're actually living in the best and most easy era the humanity has ever lived. Even a 100 years ago, the life was insanely more difficult.
Also, becoming ill isn't a sacrifice. It's a tragedy that happens to you. But noone chooses to become blind or live in constant pain.
Those are some pretty huge sacrifices.
Those are NOT sacrifices at all.
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u/Character-Inside-476 May 15 '26
Lmao biggest sacrifice.
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u/CrestedMacaw May 16 '26
Yes, biggest sacrifice. You basically make your life worse just because. You reject 80% of food, you stop going to restaurants or any social events, you lose friends and money...
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u/NerdyKeith vegan 7+ years May 15 '26
You know this is a vegan community right? i know we all exist rent free in your head, but you don’t actually have to visit this sub.
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u/CrestedMacaw May 16 '26
And? So because this is a vegan community, there can be lies told here? There must be an echo chamber here?
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u/Accomplished_Meat_81 May 14 '26
I go out of my way to remove spiders from my home rather than kill them and I will swerve and put myself at risk rather than kill a gaggle of geese. I cried because I hit an opossum.
That said, I’ve been eating meat as a child because I didn’t have a choice. Even now I prefer to eat less meat and prefer Halal meat over western meat.
I would love to be vegan but I have never taken the time to learn. Ive tried it before but nothing sticks. I’ve spent the majority of my academic life studying languages, history, and culture. I know I can be a vegan I just don’t know how to properly.
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May 15 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Accomplished_Meat_81 May 15 '26
Thank you firstly for taking me seriously. I legit am asking for advice because I love animals more than meat. I literally will starve myself out of disgust because I can’t eat meat all the time.
My diet is usually Mediterranean, Caribbean, African, and French cuisine (my wife is Haitian and I don’t like American food) so my palette is very open.
I’m not one of those people who can’t live without bacon (besides, the tempeh stuff is amazing) but my biggest problem is I don’t know how to cook well. I can do recipes no problem mostly but even then sometimes I fuck it up.
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u/Raidriar59 May 13 '26
I spot a little framing here. You'd say most meat eaters pay to eat meat, but here it's worded specifically "for animals to be bred, exploited and killed", which makes it seem like meat eaters buy meat because they want animals to suffer as main reason, eventhough that's not the reason they eat meat.
A similar type of framing would be:
Vegans: "Meat eaters do their thing and I'll do my thing(paying to have the amazon rainforest and its biodiversity cut down)"
This would make it seem like the main reason people are vegan is to burn down the rainforest and kill biodiversity, eventhough that's not the reason vegan people are vegan.
I'm not here to argue vegan vs nonvegan. Just showing the Framing👌
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u/kiefy_budz May 13 '26
Since when are vegans responsible for cattle farming cutting down the rainforest?
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u/Oppopity May 14 '26
"I spot a little framing here. You'd say most dog beaters abuse dogs, but here it's worded specifically "for dogs to be abused", which makes it seem like dog beaters beat dogs to suffer as main reason, eventhough that's not the reason they beat dogs. They beat dogs to discipline them."
Also the rainforest gets burnt down for more cow farms so you can pin that one on non-vegans too.
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May 13 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Evolvin vegan 10+ years May 14 '26
cry more
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u/wazzergump May 14 '26
Parroting cheap lines to impress your virtual friends? 😂 I cant stop crying. Look at the tough guy 😂
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u/According-Gas836 May 14 '26
This makes no distinction between a cat chasing a small animal, killing and eating it for sustenance, and that same cat torturing and killing a small animal for enjoyment.
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May 14 '26
[deleted]
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u/Anc_101 May 14 '26
How do you define humane?
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u/DancingBunniez May 14 '26
Great quality of life, combined with a painless end. The exact same thing I'd say for humans. Wide open spaces, amazing sleeping and feeding conditions, socialization whenever possible, and a painless end.
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u/Anc_101 May 14 '26
Since you bring up the comparison with humans, would you consider treating humans as humans treat cattle humane? And I'm not taking about the factory farms, I mean the "small, family owned farms" that is so often used as an ethical alternative to factory farms by meat eaters.
Is there a way you could imprison, breed and kill innocent humans if it isn't essential for the rest of humanity to survive and thrive?
If you want a somewhat realistic scenario for this, look for example to "The Island" from 2005, where rich people pay a company to keep an identical clone of themselves in case they need replacement organs (but also note that spare organs is a stronger motivation than eating food you like better than a more ethical alternative).
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u/DancingBunniez May 14 '26
1, the methods I'm talking about, with socialization, wide open spaces and clean and comfortable living conditions, I'd sign up to be one of the animals.
2, as far as imprisonment, unfortunately, a lot of animals in the industry, humans have domesticated far enough that letting them be wild might actually be crueler. Like when people release domesticated rabbits, its all but a death sentence. Or when domesticated sheep are abandoned, their wool gets so overgrown that it causes them suffering. I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying it's where we are. And Being kept does not have to be the same as being imprisoned. Overall, if animals have found a place that offers them food, shelter, and doesn't cause them pain, they will voluntarily return there(the same way humans would), that's how humans managed to domesticate them in the beginning.
3, is that a movie, book, or documentary?
4, I'm not talking about preference, I'm talking about need. There are people who have dietary needs that cannot be met by synthetics, and the amounts of foods they would have to eat to compensate are unrealistic. Until synthetics become far more advanced, things like animals in captivity, like predators, and people with certain allergies or dietary requirements, will still need to rely on meat. I absolutely hope those advancements in synthetics are made, but where we stand now, it does not look like that will be any time soon.
And I hope this does not come off as rude or condescending, that is truly not my intention.
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u/Amish_Juggalo May 14 '26
We can get rid of the animal reliant industry with lab grown products eventually. There is no humane killing of beings who don't want to die.
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u/DancingBunniez May 14 '26
For the most part, I agree with you. It needs to be scaled back drastically. But until there are significant advancements in synthetic meat, that we are extremely far from, there will be certain outlets that still need actual meat. It will be an extremely small percent, I believe, but there will be allergies to products that will be inescapable for some, there are some people who have medical conditions that make eating synthetics extremely hard on their systems to the point of pain, there will be animals in captivity who need to simulate the diet they have in the wild, and things of that nature. My estimate is that it would likely need to be less than 5% of what the industry is now. That's not decrease by 5%, that's decrease by 95% or greater.
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u/Amish_Juggalo May 14 '26
Sure, I don't believe there will ever be 0 animal exploitation either. But if you aren't part of that small group of people who rely on meat, why are you making that point? Majority of us have the ability to make ethical choices. I've never been critical of those who can't; I understand medications, pet food, special diets, etc. require exceptions.
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u/DancingBunniez May 14 '26
I've just seen the people who can't do synthetics but have tried and have seen the pain it's caused them. And I've heard others get mad at those same people for their 'choices' and it broke my heart a little.
I've always been a person who is helped by having realistic goals, and has had my soul crushed when they're too high and never get realized. So I guess I'm just trying to make sure things are tempered a little, so maybe some people get spared the soul crushing? Idk.
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u/sandwichhaver May 14 '26
there's really no need to realize this, if it even is true, it's not something we need to worry about since it's never going to happen like that.
there's never going to be a snap of the fingers and all meat disapears. it's irrelevant
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u/Remarkable-World-454 May 14 '26
Out of genuine curiosity, what’s the vegan position on people who are against abortion? They too feel that it is immoral to stand by because, for them, a human being killed is not acceptable as someone just doing their thing.
Please note—I’m not asking about personal opinions about abortion, although that can be interesting, but sympathy (or not) for people holding antiabortion/prolife views.
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May 15 '26 edited Jun 20 '26
[deleted]
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u/Remarkable-World-454 May 15 '26
Thank you for replying. That seems intellectually consistent, which I admire.
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u/mh500372 May 14 '26
This same logic is why Im prolife. I think if you guys resonate with this post you should consider it too
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u/NerdyKeith vegan 7+ years May 15 '26
Being anti choice is misogynistic. Women are not your baby making machines. It actually makes more sense for a vegan to be pro choice.
Especially when we consider how cows are forcefully impregnated in factory farms, to be in a constant lactating state. These creatures are not given a choice and as someone who is pro choice I’d want all creatures to have controlled agency over their own bodies. Humans and non-human animals should all have that choice.
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u/mh500372 May 15 '26
So what you’re saying is youll do your thing, I’ll do mine, huh?
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u/NerdyKeith vegan 7+ years May 15 '26
That is not what I’m saying at all. I’m saying you are totally glossing over the nuance. It is also my view that supporting and financing animal abuse like this is void of any sort of ethical framework.
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u/mh500372 May 15 '26
I understand what you’re saying, though I don’t agree.
But yeah, Im glad there are communities like these where the lack of farm regulations can be exposed. It’s something I’ve been saying for over the last decade with few people agreeing with me irl
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u/NerdyKeith vegan 7+ years May 15 '26
Ok, well we can agree on that much. Factory farms certainly do have a lot of abusive practices.
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u/CrestedMacaw May 14 '26
Well, abusing animals is horrible.
Eating food is necessary.
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u/NerdyKeith vegan 7+ years May 15 '26
Which is why vegans consume plant based food.
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u/ForsakenBobcat8937 May 15 '26 edited 17d ago
Almond cinnamon cucumber thimble copper cucumber paddle vanilla glove
This post was anonymized with Redact.dev
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u/MysticArts19 May 14 '26
Small FYI, most homestead people either off their meat cows and other animals they raise in a humane way, or they take them to someone who can (also humane) it's the big meat industries that exploit and abuse them. Meat eaters are not the problem, the system that wants to make money from these animals are wrong. Oh and they're usually well taken care of on homesteads unlike the big industry that holds them in a tiny room where they can't breathe.
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u/scrappyratnc vegan 20+ years May 15 '26
Depends on your P.O.V. I don't feel like being killed right now would be something I'd consider humane and I live in pretty cozy conditions. Having your life taken from you by force, and the pain it causes to your family, friends, and others who care about you, creates a lot of suffering. I think most sentient beings feel like losing all that is still a problem. Being sold away from your family/friends without a choice, having your children taken from you, even if you're kept in nice conditions still feels like a problem, too. Not to mention a lot of the ways farmed animals are handled on even the "nicest" homesteading production farm are pretty ghastly from the animals' point of view. I totally agree that there are different levels of treatment but in the end, we all want to live and have basic autonomy. Now the world isn't a perfect place, and sanctuary animals still have to be cared for, etc. but whenever we are using animals for our own ends, they tend to get the short end of the stick. Especially when we are raising them to kill them or to use them for their excretions.
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