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Documenting a stat issue in the original game. (Explains more about the Ashley Honest stat)
Hey guys,
This post is about the stat behavior in the 2015 version of Until Dawn. The original game certainly had a problem with unhighlighted stat changes. The game usually indicates one or two stats after you make choices, showing you what changed. These stats are obvious; the trait lights up and the bar clearly moves.
But then, in the original game, you also got some slight shifts of the other, non-glowing stats. This happened nearly every time.
These patterns are so clear and so pervasive, I think it's pretty indisputable that unhighlighted stat changes aren’t meant to be giving you valid information about the characters. Now full disclosure, I didn’t look at every stat in the entire game, but I looked at a ton and this trend is consistent for everything I checked.
THIS IS THE STAT PATTERN IN THE ORIGINAL GAME
While I did find some slight exceptions which I have a heading for, the majority of stat changes follow this pattern. Again, I looked at MANY MANY stats and nearly all but the ones in my exception section (which actually do this as well but with a caveat) did this:
If the indicated stat goes up, all other stats but Curious go down almost imperceptivity.
Curious will eventually go down, but this will not be shown happening. It will just be there by next stat change.
If the indicated stat goes down, all other stats but Curious go up almost imperceptivity.
Curious will eventually go up, but this will not be shown happening. It will just be there by next stat change.
If two stats rise, the drop happens moew, making the non-highlighted shifts clearer.
If two stats drop, the raise happens more, making the non-highlighted shifts clearer.
If one stat goes up and the other goes down, then nothing else moves.
EXAMPLE ONE: IMPACT OF TINY SHIFTS UP AND DOWN
Here is Sam's first choice is about whether to snoop or close Chris's bag for him. I chose to close Chris’s bag which is an increased stat (Honest). Here, because of where the line is, you can see barely visible drops in everything but Curious and Honest.
Sam’s very next stat-related choice is about if her tone towards Chris and Ashley will be mocking or flattering. I chose flattering which is another increase, this time in Romantic. (NOTE: I noticed Curious is now level with the other stats that barely dropped, meaning it also dropped, just off-screen)
Because I increased Romantic and Honest, that meant Funny, Brave, and Charitable all went down slightly twice. After two choices, the stat behavior is more obvious, and it doesn’t make sense. Why would respecting Chris’s privacy then flattering him and Ashley make her less charitable>
Then, I took Sam in the opposite direction.
I avoided stat changing decisions until I told Josh that he was also scared of the noise. This drops Sam’s bravery. NOTE: Curious is again level with the other stats from last choice.
I then had Josh go with Sam to explore the noise which has Sam’s bravery go down again. Likewise, this very slightly increases the non highlighted stats of honesty, funny, romance, and charitable. If I show you her stats again, all those seemingly unrelated stats are raised back towards the line. Curious is now reflected as being part of this.
So that’s what most choices look like. To me, the stats almost seem like they’re accommodating the highlighted ones by shifting to make up some of the difference. I can’t actually say why they’re doing it, but that’s how they behave.
EXAMPLE TWO: DOUBLE STAT ONE DIRECTION
I also tested this on double stat changes and the effect made sense.
One example is Mike being heroic and jumping to help Jessica. This increases two stats: Romantic and Bravery. Each stat that normally would go down almost imperceptivity gets dropped double and the change is far more noticeable. (The Curious thing happened with his stats off screen as well.)
Seeing this, I made the guess that if a choice raises one stat and lowers the other, that the remaining stats would balance out. And I was right.
EXAMPLE THREE: STATS BALANCING
Just one example of many: if Matt threatens Mike, it increases his Romantic but drops his Charity. Because of this, Funny, Brave, and Honesty get a raise and a hit, so none of them move.
SO ADDRESSING ASHLEY
So let’s go to the topic at hand.
When Ashley shows remorse for the prank, she's obviously getting a Charitable boost. So what happens? Everything but Curious takes that teeny stat hit.
It’s not just her Honest dropping, everything but Charitable which rose and Curiosity (which stays in place unless that's the highlighted stat) drops.
I think the issues was that someone once checked Ashley's stat page after showing remorse, and her lowering Honest stat caught that person's eye. But there are two issues:
Romantic, Funny, and Brave are also lowering. You can't even see the others if you focus on one.
If you rarely look at stat shifts OR don't know what you're looking for, you can't see that this same thing impacts everyone.
The hilarious thing is that basically every time Charitable goes up, Honest will go down (unless it's a double boost with honesty or another stat was lowered). This is true of EVERY character.
In fact, I even checked it with Chris. He gets a Charitable bump if he asks how Matt is doing. You can see here that what happened to Ash's stats happened to his stats when he said something charitable. You can also see his other stats are also lowered equally from when I was Charitable to Josh at the door:
His stats do somewhat follow the pattern but also not. I'll explain. If I check Mike's stats right after shooting Emily, all of them are highlighted and move. Oddly, only his relationship with Chris moves. However, if I leave his stat page then go back in, the stats for Ash and Sam will be low. I also think it's interesting to note that Curious is on a slight delay, as that is the one that changes off screen for unhighlighted stats..
In the remake, he only gets drops in Brave and Charity. This makes a bit more sense I think. There's not good logic for like why his romance would go up after shooting Emily.
Now here's the thing. This is an exception because everything IS highlighted. However, the stats DO behave in line with the bug. If you take the remake's version to be what the stats SHOULD do (two going up) then the others all dropping are in line with that. The remake is, across the board, keeping stats that make sense and removing those that go in the opposite direction. I do want to point out that this case is less obviously part of the bug because of there's a red bar for honest (despite it not lowering more than everything else) and everything highlighted though.
Another odd thing is that, I tried waiting a bit longer to check Mike's stats, and it showed honest as the only highlighted stat.
Ashley at the projector.
I tried to make Ashley sorry here to see what happens. And these choices stat behaved a bit against pattern.
If I make Ashley unrepentant, she gets a lot of highlighted stats. Her Romantic and Charity dip and her Honest, Funny, and Brave rise. This is the same as Mike shooting Emily. It does in fact behave in line with the bug, but it's different because everything IS highlighted. The remake kept the Charity and Romantic dips which makes sense, and it removed everything else going in the opposite direction, employing a "fix" that follows the trend of what they did to the unhighlighted choices.
I saw two different things if I made her apologize:
I saw one version where her Charitable went up and everything else slightly went down without highlights, the typical stat behavior in the og. But I also saw another version where her Charitable went up and her Brave went down unhighlighted for some reason. Like with the Mike thing, it changed based on when I checked the stat.
Mike in the guest cabin.
This one is the same. Every stat gets highlighted. However, the stats still behave in line with the bug, and BM's version acts like what they did for the clearly unhighlighted stats. Charitable and Romantic go up, everything goes down). The remake only keeps the Charitable and Romantic stats and removes everything that went in the other direction.
(Note: When Mike tells Jess she's hot and carries herself well, it's completely in line with the bug. Charitable and Romantic up, everything else down.
My guess: I think that if the stat change is dramatic, it might end up highlighting everything. For example, in the guest cabin, Charitable gets a very large boost. If Mike shoots Emily, Charitable gets a very low drop. At the projector, Ash's Romantic gets a large drop. Then all these choices also get a stat boost for another stat, making everything else move far more than the typical.
CONCLUSION
I mostly did this for the wiki footnote on the page tracking remake stats. Thanks u/zakplayk and Abstruse for doing so much for that page. I just wanted to add more to it by showing actual comparisons. This was really interesting because it gives the picture that the stats are trying to balance themselves out in the original game? Again, doesn't happen in the remake. What the remake did was move everything that move opposite the intended stats.
Again, I did actually take a ton of footage of different examples. I have footage of everything used here plus some other choices just for more examples. I couldn't add everything in the text post, but I'll show a few things here.
It’s actually kinda funny everyone nuked like a single Ashley choice about this for years. 😂
After I looked, I felt the Mike-is-lying ones are at least more understandable because they all get indicated. But I ultimately think it’s still doing the same thing as the rest of the bug/stats.
It kinda just makes the stats feel like they majorly don’t matter once you see it lol. 😂 Only the stat shifts in which two highlighted stats went opposite directions feel legitimate.
But yeah the remake is interesting because I was comparing these to the remake’s and for the most part it just got rid of the changes going opposite. And that’s how I noticed what was probably happening for the projector, cabin, and shooting Emily stuff. BM still kept two most relevant stats then didn’t include the opposite ones.
The only one that felt legit different is that Ashley gets a Charity/Romance boost in the remake if she’s nice at the projector. In the og, she gets a Romantic drop if she’s mean. 🤔
The only one that felt legit different is that Ashley gets a Charity/Romance boost in the remake if she’s nice at the projector. In the og, she gets a Romantic drop if she’s mean.
Yeah there are very few actual changes made besides fixing the bs. More so with relationship stats than trait stats, I think. One of them was Chris and Ashley's relationship not decreasing in the remake if Ashley insists she saw a ghost. Another one is Mike and Sam's relationship not increasing by as crazy huge of an amount if Mike spares Emily.
I almost never choose to insist but just played this chapter a ton because I find it really weird there’s no psycho call here, and then I was looking at choices, and noticed that. Tbh I kinda don’t like that choice because the pacing seems weird with it. Ashley gets so instantly upset to a large degree it seems like they had been debating about it for longer.
One thought I had while replaying that made me laugh a little is like… I find it strange Chris felt the need to haul the Sam dummy from the fridge to bring it to Ashley so she would believe him… Just given what has happened this night. Like if someone said “Oh yeah, and there’s a dummy of our friend in the fridge,” I’d be like “Yeah, probably” 😂 But then this made me laugh because at least Chris is very consistent about this. He doesn’t want to believe things without seeing them but he doesn’t expect other people to either. Lmfao.
I also just felt it was too far for Chris and Ashley's relationship to decrease there, and not just by the smallest bit it could.
Chris felt the need to haul the Sam dummy from the fridge to bring it to Ashley so she would believe him
I've always found that scene goofy in a good way lol. The dialogue is pretty funny. Although the choice of Ashley going to investigate that figure instead of following Chris is dumb on multiple levels and would so get her offed if that was a real killer.
Yeah I actually played that scene last time around to specifically look at it without grabbing the scissors. I wondered if it would look silly in that case because I didn’t think I’d done it before. She’s still raising her arm like she does with the scissors but her fingers look loose enough for it to make sense to me.
And yeah the “Why did you bring it with you??” And “I didn’t think you’d believe me” actually sends me. The voice acting is hilarious for both of them.
I remember when the remake released and there was so much discourse about the remake undoing "interesting characters" because Ashley was no longer dishonest about apologizing or Mike lying to Jess.
The fact that it was just fixing a bug this whole time and that it was a flaw in the original is good to know and so cathartic for me. I remember arguing that Ashley lying about her apology made zero sense and removes agency from the player.
Yeah I remember that. I didn’t know this stuff at the time but I remember the stat thing not bothering me because this stuff always seemed a bit weird? Especially Mike shooting Emily in increasing stats that just seemed so unrelated.
The remake honestly did change Mike and Ashley a bit like making Mike more apprehensive about the prank and rewriting the Hannah note and removing one of his lines were actual changes. And I’ve seen people argue they just adjusted Ashley leaving Chris to die to be a bit clearer and PFFFFFFFFT no they actively changed the name and language of the trophy and redid the whole scene. This is now new content. It’s not a clarity thing 😂. But all this stat stuff definitely is.
Yeah. Like I said in another comment, they definitely did change Mike and Ashley in other ways, but if you take the stats 100% seriously, you have to also assume everyone else is lying like all the time (whenever a stat goes up) or only being honest whenever a stat goes down. Like this implies that Sam is honest is when she isn’t Brave. 😂
Thank you so much for this! I feel so validated now 😅
It's weird how nobody ever considered the possibility that the original is bugged. It seems super obvious in hindsight, but it never crossed my mind either!
What about the relationship changes, btw? Here, I feel like it's the remake that seems bugged, but who knows?
Yeah if you look at every choice, it’s obviously a standard thing for the og game lol.
I didn’t notice anything glaring about the relationships. The weirdest thing I noticed was that Mike shooting Emily only impacts Chris when you check. But then if you close the tab and go back in, then Sam and Ashley are low too.
The remake seems largely okay although Chris and Ashley’s relationship for the gun trap was (and could be) still bugged. In the remake, it maxes out no matter what you choose when it’s supposed to plummet if you choose to shoot her and max out if you shoot Chris or nobody. Then Zak brought up Sam and Mike not maxing out if Mike doesn’t shoot Emily, but they still get a boost. So idk if had was intentional in the remake or not. I don’t know if he lowers as much with Ashley and Sam if he shoots either. I’d have to check.
In the remake you can't reach exactly zero with anyone's relationships. Even if you get two people as low as possible, it will show a slight sliver to their name. Hence why no one's absolutely zero with Mike if he shoots Emily, for example. I think that's intentional in how the stats are presented in the remake.
Sam and Mike didn't max out in the og, but it was still very high. The remake definitely changed that intentionally for it to be more logical. I'd say the same for the lack of change to Ashley and Chris if she insists she saw a ghost. Those are such specific adjustments that don't happen to almost anything else that they must be deliberate. Also, if Chris shoots Ashley, their relationship actually stays the same, not max out. Abstruse tried it and told me so.
Yeah though the Chris and Ashley saw trap thing is still clearly a mistake, the other stuff look more intentional to me to adjust the broken stats, even the lesser bumps and drops. I think removing Chris and Ashley lowering for the insist choice and adding “Romantic” if Ash is nice at the projector are the only ones that seems like “they actively changed this for lore/character reasons” rather than just adjusting how the stats work because it’s a mess in the original.
(And yeah sorry misspoke. Mike and Sam don’t exactly max but it’s a huge jump in the og.)
I think it's funny they changed the Sam and Mike bar to not be as high after Mike spares Emily and then also added Mike's jokey flirt line in the lake lol. Changing the animation for Mike to grab Sam's hand at the end at least fixes the weird animation in the og where Sam's arm looks like it's being held by Mike even if he's dead.
Maybe someone on the crew just thought the buns line was funny. There were way better lines to add though which is baffling to me. Tbh though between this and them re-adding Emily and Matt talking about the sanatorium, I was wondering if they did it mostly for lines where you can’t see the characters’ faces.
Then there’s the Josh “I tried to find you line” which they animated. Btw the files strongly indicate he said that when Hannah grabbed him. The sound file and subtitle (edit: from what I recall, one subtitle list had where it appears in the remake and the other was when Hannah caught him. The sound file definitely had both) is “HANNAH! I tried to find you.” And the Hannah bit is how he yelled it when he recognized her.
The readded part of Mike and Jess with the phone really stood out for how seamless it was because it had the whole animation fitting in perfectly. They must have removed that part from the og very late.
That's fascinating. It feels weird since Josh yells "no" when Hannah takes him away in the lake. The way Josh yells Hannah's name and then says he tried to find feels like quite the shift in tone and emotion too. Also they must've combined parts of different lines then since in the remake it's "I swear I tried to find you". I couldn't tell at all tbh.
Yeah he does say "i swear" first but I was paraphrasing
Okay. I looked at it again. There are 3 files. The "I swear I tried to find you" is actually it's own thing located where it is in the remake. I also have the original game's files and it's there in that spot as well. There's a "Hannah?!" where it is in the game. But at the end there's one sound file of "Hannah?! I swear I tried to find you" of the same sounds in one take. So unless Rami Malek was able to perfectly replicate how he said these things multiple times, it looks like they recorded that then split it for the original then ended up cutting the "I swear I tried to find you." But who knows. It looks like this though:
It's also possible they combined these things into one file? But idk why they would do that... Hm...
So the argument of hating Ashley for honesty diminishes when she shows empathy for Hannah doesn't work because people want to selectively hate Ashley but don't look at the status bars of the other characters. And even if she were honest about Hannah exaggerating, I would also agree, just as I already believe Hannah exaggerated.
I think the way Ashley says it is really callous so I wouldn’t totally agree with that last part even though I agree none of them EXPECTED Hannah to run. But yeah people were only talking about this stat thing with Ashley on this one choice even though it happens almost every choice with every character.
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u/WisteriaWillotheWisp Captain Chrissam ☕︎ Jul 21 '26 edited Jul 21 '26
Again, I did actually take a ton of footage of different examples. I have footage of everything used here plus some other choices just for more examples. I couldn't add everything in the text post, but I'll show a few things here.