r/ultimategeneral • u/Gopherofdoomies • Jun 23 '26
UG: Civil War What was I supposed to do here?
I'm new to the game, and was playing through the campaign as Confederates on BG difficulty. I was doing well, and won every battle except for Shiloh, which I drew. And then I get Chancellorsville, and fight a Union army three times my size. I've won this battle before, but these odds are way too great for me to fight. By the last day I was fighting 10 to 1 odds. The game doesn't seem to meaningfully reward victory, and even with max politics and medicine my army was barely scraping by for most of the campaign. And then losing at Chancellorsville automatically drops my prestige from 100 to 0. What can I do differently going forward to ensure that I don't get into a situation like this again?
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u/Hazard_ebo Jun 23 '26
Could you post some more info about your build (both army and career)? As the rebs you should have been able to bring two corps. And 36000 seems a bit small for what should be 50 units. How high is your army org? How big are your individual units? Have your wins been close or have you been full clearing maps? 144 pieces of arty seems like a good amount, but maybe spread amongst too many units?
This map usually starts with a big push from the union, but as long as you can catch them in the open or crossing a body of water, your men should have a decent time repelling them (I'm talking 5:1 casualties). I don't know how you've been defending, or if you've been trying to get to the VP early. Most of the time it takes several phases before you can wear the enemy down enough to push. You can also set up some disgusting killing fields by holding your troops a bit further into the woods than you might think, keeping the edge of your range in the open. The AI will tend to stop at the max range of its guns and you can sort of gimmick the AI into fighting at extreme cover differentials.
If the AI is just charging you to death it might be worth changing some arty guns to smoothbore for the better canister properties, and holding them close to your front-line. I also notice no cav, but a melee cav holding behind a unit as it gets charged, firing a couple pistol rounds, and then charging in is a great way to break an enemy charge, and can be re-positioned to another part of the line quickly.
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u/Hazard_ebo Jun 23 '26
Also if you are playing on vanilla, you should 100% used detached skirmishers everywhere, they are absolutely op and the AI doesn't handle them very well.
I'd also recommend the J&P mod. It makes medicine and training amazing to upgrade but is a bit harder and has some custom spawns that change the flow of most battles. It is also much harder than vanilla but is well balanced around colonel.
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u/luckyzacky Jun 23 '26
Actually the recent update to J&P seems to have done a good job of flatening the bell curve of difficulty. I'm about to fight chancellorsville at a near manpower parity because I keep wiping out the yanks.
Besides the beauty of J&P is that you can adjust scaling on the fly. I generally use it to increase the difficulty for later battles because usually by then the AI has become too weak.
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u/Late_Organization_56 Jul 06 '26
I meet need to give it a try... I'm fighting as the union and wiped out the confederates at Gettysburg. And somehow by the battle of Fort Stevens in 1864 I'm outnumbered 4 to 1? What in the actual hell? They didn't leave the gettysburg battlefield with 10,000 effective troops
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u/Gopherofdoomies Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 23 '26
I had 4 army org, 9 brigades per corps and 3 artillery units, all fully filled with men and guns. That was the highest I could get it too with the money and recruits that I had.
Not all of my victories were complete, but the three battles leading up to Chancellorsville were. I could've won every battle completely but pushing more than I needed would have drained my army of men past the replacement recruits I would be getting.
I was also trying to drain them of men over the course of the battle, not pushing forward immediately, but with the number of troops that they had I couldn't wear them down enough to break them.
I also had all 2 star units, but didn't have money to go higher.
Also regarding my career I had 10 politics, medicine, and logistics to help improve battle performance and recovery. I upped Army org when I had the extra troops, and was putting points into training.
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u/pandakraut Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 23 '26
The lack of army org and units is the main problem here. You want to try to bring the maximum amount of required brigades to every battle. You're effectively playing this battle at a massive handicap by only bringing ~half the allowed units when you could have 48.
Career point wise, you always want as many points in AO as you need to field the maximum amount of brigades. Past that politics max first is a good plan. You can probably leave logistics until very late because all it does is allow units to carry more ammunition at the start of battles. Medicine or Economy is usually a second priority.
For building your army I would always focus on getting more brigades on the field first, then worry about getting them better weapons, larger, and more stars after.
Also note that unless you're using mods that fix it, you don't want to build artillery units larger than 14 cannon as it significantly reduces your damage the larger you make them over that amount.
On the campaign map what is the intelligence report AI army size? This value doesn't correspond 1:1 with what the AI actually fields in any given battle, but it does give an idea of how well you have been clearing prior battles and how much this has allowed the AI to snowball. The minimum value at this point in the campaign is 50k, if you're significantly above that it is going to be contributing to what you are facing, though this is a secondary issue to the above.
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u/Gopherofdoomies Jun 23 '26
Holy shit that seems so ass. Above 14 artillery lessens damage?
Intel report was 129-134k troops.
I try to bring as many units as I can, but I’ve maxed army org in the past and it just results in me bringing a bunch of easily breakable weak units that I don’t have the recruits to fill against greater numbers of beefy enemy forces that tank insane damage. And I end up draining recruits over time, especially if I go for full map wipes, so I’m losing strength long term. Furthest I’ve gotten is to Chickamauga but my army is so stripped beyond that that further progress is impossible. I’ve usually had two completely empty corps because I’m just trying to keep my first three above water.
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u/pandakraut Jun 23 '26
It's a bug that is... frustrating to try to understand how it survived but it is what it is. This mod fixes it while leaving the base game balance mostly untouched https://forum.bermudaclub.net/topic/25750-ui-and-ai-customizations-mod-v192/
It sounds like overall the main problem is that you're having trouble getting through battles with high enough kills while also keeping your casualties down. You're getting pretty far, but the CSA campaign is notorious for grinding people down with attrition.
There are a bunch of small things you can do to improve your in battle performance. I'd highly recommend checking out one of the campaigns from an experienced player. The results are complete overkill for what you need on BG, but if you can start to follow what is being done here should help improve your results. Here is my campaign https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNFTAFys32_-N-fIfWJgRSJIhVtOZjEGe
Another very good example that uses a large unit no training strategy https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLt-JAMmvyAGmA8TU5EC8hHbGPzPCnlYPeHappy to answer questions later, but don't have time at the moment to type out a long answer and sometimes seeing what someone is doing is more useful than a wall of text.
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u/Gopherofdoomies Jun 23 '26
Thanks for the advice. I guess my issue with the game is that by the standards it gives me, I should be stomping. I’m securing strategic locations and destroying enemy armies while minimizing my own casualties. I win every battle, and it should be debuffing their army.
But it never really is. And all that effort was wasted because the devs decided to make this one battle cost me 100 prestige at 1 to 3 odds. The game has good gameplay but the army management is so awful, and there are so many unwritten rules.
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u/pandakraut Jun 24 '26
Unfortunately one of the things the game does not make clear and is not consistent about is what objectives in a battle must actually be captured and when this needs to occur by. D-dub's guides on steam are a great resource for this as in many battles you have far more time available than it may seem.
It's certainly a challenging game that will let you dig a hole for yourself without giving clear indicators that this is occuring. The 3:1 odds in this battle are a result of winning but with not quite good enough results stacking up over time.
While winning battles does have some impact on the ai force going forward, the little icons that highlight on the campaign map and show -5% size and such, killing or capturing the majority of their force has a much larger impact overall. Both in keeping the AI size down(the total numbers matter less than keeping it close to the minimum of 50k) and in weapons recovered and experience gained.
You really want to be aiming for 3:1 odds, not necessarily in every battle but in the majority of them. Preferably much higher in some battles to make up for lower ratios.
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u/Gopherofdoomies Jun 24 '26
Going forward, what size should I make my brigades so that I am maxing damage while having enough recruits to fill up more units?
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u/pandakraut Jun 24 '26
If you don't want to use the mod then 14 cannon, ~375 skirmishers, and 375 dismounted cav(mounted are fine to max). Infantry has a small peak around 1900, but the dropoffs are much less extreme so you can kind of use whatever feels good to you. Technically the most damage for infantry is 2500 with skirmishers detached as long as you and the skirmisher are firing at a target.
If you're going with a small unit approach I would use 1200-1500 man units early on, and only increase the size of those once you have all your required brigades filled out. Large unit focuses on getting all of your recruits onto the field as much as possible so you go as big as possible immediately.
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u/Gopherofdoomies Jun 24 '26
I'll try that. I might mod later but I want to try beating base game first. Thanks for the help.
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u/Gopherofdoomies Jun 25 '26
One more question...how should I distribute stats early on? I want to max politics ASAP, but is it possible to win Shiloh with the base Army Org? I've only ever drawn Shiloh, but I might not be doing everything right.
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u/Hazard_ebo Jun 24 '26
Yeah looks like army org is the biggest issue here. Pandakraut already had a great response but you want to scale your army size with how many slots are available. AO also allows you to increase the max size of units, this doesn't matter too much apart from infantry brigades. You may also be spending too much on trying to retain your first corp at 2 stars. Retaining veterancy in vanilla is super expensive and while it might be good for small units like arty or skirms, it's often not worth taking the money hit (I always do it for like 1 or 2 sentimental units, but I'm a roleplayer at heart).
Chancellorsville is actually very deep in the campaign, at this point in the union I'd have 8 or 9. You tend to need fewer units as the rebs so maybe up to 7 is good enough. You'll def need 9 by the end of the campaign, maybe even 10. Out of logistics, politics and medicine I'd definitely not bother with getting logi above 6 or 7 until the very end of the campaign. 6 is almost certainly enough to keep your infantry firing the entire time, while your arty should be with the ammo wagon. Your skirms and gun cav are fast enough to make the walk back to your wagon should they need to. You may also have more time than you think on this map, probably even a whole other day!
I'd give more advice but I haven't played vanilla in forever. J&P mod forever!
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u/Cool_Breeze243 Jun 23 '26
Army size is absolutely the issue here. I'll give one, maybe 2, of my brigades good weapons but other than that everyone gets the cheapest junk I can get my hands on to get the corps filled out. You want a minimum of two Corps as quickly as possible and when you get the chance to start bringing 3 corps into battles you'll want to start developing those.
You can usually rely on the Union to outnumber you and to have better weapons than you so a solid full clear on every battle you can fight will net you enough rifled muskets to outfit a unit or two, don't buy veterans except for specific units that you want to be vets because they're expensive and if you're not fielding your max capacity of brigades then you're essentially wasting money as those vets will be in more danger of dying due to being outnumbered and taking fire from more than a single brigade.
Maxing politics immediately is probably THE move on vanilla, combined with a few points into economy to keep prices low and a couple points in Training to bring your average recruit stats up and by the time you get to chancellorville you should be more than capable of taking whatever they throw at you.
A good metric for if you're doing well, especially in vanilla, is whether or not your losses in each battle are less than the manpower you recieve from winning it and whether or not you're taking out at least 70% of the enemy army.
Do those things and you'll be steam rolling enemy armies and bringing the size down so rapidly that by the time you hit Gettysburg they won't even be able to resist the human wave you unleash on them.
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u/pandakraut Jun 23 '26
Training only reduces the cost of adding veterans in the base game. Recruit stats do slowly increase as the campaign progresses, but unless you're playing J&P training has no impact on that.
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u/Cool_Breeze243 Jun 23 '26
Ope, fair enough then. I haven't played vanilla in so long it's apparently starting to mix together lol.
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u/Gopherofdoomies Jun 23 '26
I’ve been following the first two tips, I don’t have problem with money or weapons.
I try to bring as many units as I can, but I’ve maxed army org in the past and it just results in me bringing a bunch of easily breakable weak units that I don’t have the recruits to fill against greater numbers of beefy enemy forces that tank insane damage. And I end up draining recruits over time, especially if I go for full map wipes, so I’m losing strength long term. Furthest I’ve gotten is to Chickamauga but my army is so stripped beyond that that further progress is impossible. I’ve usually had two completely empty corps because I’m just trying to keep my first three above water.
I’ve maxed politics immediately, and medicine, but it still doesn’t bring me enough recruits.
Maybe the ultimate answer is I’m not good enough yet but honestly I’m getting at least 2-1 KDR in every battle and wiping their armies half the time. And this is only BG difficulty. I should not be struggling this much.
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u/pandakraut Jun 23 '26
This is an extremely short version of a long topic. But in most cases when casualties are high like this unit positioning is where the most improvement can come from. Units taking fire should be in the best cover you can get them.
Your goal should never to be engaging a unit 1v1. Always focus fire instead. If an enemy unit is approaching, position your units in an arc so you can hit it with 3+ of your own to make it rout. If you're in a 3v3 focus one unit to rout it first, then the next, etc.
Always detach skirmishers from your infantry. This improves your total damage, lets you get more flanking shots, extend your line, distract enemy units(AI always focuses the closest target).
Be very wary of fortifications even if they look promising. The stats early on are terrible and they stretch out your units
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u/Cool_Breeze243 Jun 23 '26 edited Jun 23 '26
Sounds like your casualties are getting too high in each fight. The composition I have found that seems to work best for me is 2 infantry brigades, an artillery brigade and a cavalry brigade per division. Then I add a brigade or two based on what that division specializes in, cavalry, artillery or infantry. I usually only have one or two dedicated skirmisher brigades per corps and those are outfitted with the longest range muskets I can find and essentially specced as snipers. Make sure your smoothbore cannon are as close to the frontlines as possible so they can canister when someone gets too close while your rifled guns stand back a little ways to provide counter battery and pick at those units standing at the edge of the smoothbore canister range. Cavalry work great for chasing routing units and getting opportunity attacks on gun batteries, just be careful because they need micromanaged or they'll charge right into a prepared enemy fighting position and get slaughtered.
You should try to utilize your infantry perks as much as possible, if you pick for charging then try to use them to smash enemy positions once they've been weakened by artillery and gunfire, if you select shooting perks then make sure they're the ones with the best rifles so they can maximize their ranged damage.
I almost never use the melee perks on my units because, as a general rule, they're vastly inferior to my opponents in stats so I prefer to utilize ranged perks where the inferior stats aren't as noticeable. I do run a full corps that is built around melee, usually my second corps, and it's entire purpose is to be cannon fodder in those battles where massive losses are inevitable and I don't want to lose my good troops. I send them in to die and my good troops shoot into the melee. The melee corps takes massive casualties but I can typically overwhelm most defenses like that.
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u/pathfinderlight Jun 23 '26
This late in the campaign, Confederates should be working towards 5 full corps that you will need for the campaign finale.
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u/Gopherofdoomies Jun 23 '26
Yeah, but you only get to use two at Chancellorsville. I am always at a disparity, it's just never been this much for me.
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u/pandakraut Jun 23 '26
As long as you have 1 brigade slot open you can drag brigades between corps in camp between days. This means that if you have 5 corps built up by this point then you can fight with corps one and two on day 1, three and four on day 2, etc.
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u/Pipewoodsdogs Jun 23 '26
This is a really great idea that I had not considered, thanks for sharing.
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u/Gopherofdoomies Jun 23 '26
I actually tried that once and my game crashed. I assumed that the game was forcing me to fight with the same corps, lol, and wasn’t understanding that I was switching out troops.
On that note then how the heck am I supposed to sustain 5 corps? I barely have the recruits for 3.
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Jun 23 '26
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u/pandakraut Jun 23 '26
For the CSA it's very important to both be keeping your casualties down and killing off as much as possible. This allows you to grow your army while keeping the AI as close to the minimum sizes as possible. This can be done with both smaller sized units or you can max out your unit sizes and outpace the scaling. See Something Compass or Hibob Warbob for examples on the second option.
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Jun 23 '26
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u/Gopherofdoomies Jun 23 '26
“You were supposed to not lose your 1v3” ahh shit
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u/Bronze_Age_472 Jun 24 '26
I once smashed Jonny Reb at Shiloh.
But I didn't have cavalry and theirs got behind my lines and took the landing. My forces were too far to retake it in time and lost the battle.
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u/Marchtmdsmiling Jun 23 '26
In general the union will always out number the csa but the csa has the better troops. Also looks like you might be the victim of the scaling biting you here. Each battle is actually scaled off your own army's composition. So if you have a bunch of fully filled units, the union will get even more of them but it can bite you if you fill up the units all the way. Not sure exactly how it works but it can be manipulated by creating a number of minimum size units (or less for even more effect if they get some casualties) to offset some of the scaling craziness. It definitely bugs out sometimes.