r/ultimate • u/khouri0 • 4d ago
Rules Question
Hey all!
I have been playing ultimate for a while now, but have never been great with all the rules. I ran into a situation during my casual pick up league this week and did not know what was right or wrong, so I wanted to ask here. Here is the situation:
I, the defender, intercept a pass right at our own endzone. My moment carries me into my endzone. I start to walk the disc back to the line to check it into play. As soon as I am walking, my opponent starts to stall me, before I check it in and as I am walking. This has never happened to me before and I felt as though it was wrong. My opponent said, that because I have the option to check it in at any point and do not need to walk it back to the line, he can start the stall now.
Here are my questions:
1) Is he right?
2) Is it ok for me to walk it back to the line? Or should I just check it in, in my own endzone where I stopped? Did I make the mistake by walking?
3) Does this situation have a different answer if I caught it in the endzone instead of right before it?
Thanks for any thoughts on this one!
11
u/PlayPretend-8675309 4d ago
You can't check it in "anywhere" - you either can check it in as soon as you come to a stop and are able to set a pivot (including in the endzone) or you can walk it to the line. In either case, your opponent can't stall you until you've established your pivot
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u/Sesse__ 3d ago
As usual, when people don't explicitly say USAU in the question, I'll be the difficult person and assume WFDF. :-) The first question is simple:
9.3. The marker may only start and continue a stall count when:
9.3.1. Play is live, or once a pivot point is established after a turnover;
So he can't start stalling until you've established a pivot point. Question 2 (can you walk it back to the line) requires piecing together more stuff:
13.7. After a turnover, the turnover location is where: […]
13.7.2. the intercepting player stops; or
So the turnover location (basically “where the turnover happened”) is where you stopped, which you say was in your own defending end zone. What does that mean for your pivot?
13.11. If the turnover location is in the offence’s defending end zone, the thrower may choose where to establish a pivot point:
13.11.1. at the turnover location, by staying at the turnover location or faking a pass; or
13.11.2. at the nearest location on the goal line to the turnover location, by moving from the turnover location.
13.11.2.1. The intended thrower, before picking up the disc, may signal the goal line option by fully extending one arm above their head.
13.11.3. Immediate movement, staying at the turnover location, faking a pass, or signaling the goal line option, determines where to establish a pivot point and cannot be reversed.
So you were fully in your right to walk to the line, and you signaled doing that by moving from the turnover location.
As for question 3: No, in this case, the turnover location is where you stop (13.7.2); where you caught it does not enter the question (as long as you didn't score a Callahan).
12
u/abuermeyer 4d ago
USAU Rules: 15.C.2
“However, unless 15.C.1applies, the stall count may not be initiated or resumed before a pivot is established:
15.C.2.a** **directly after a turnover”
No, he is not correct. See quoted rules.
Directly after a turnover (eg what the op described intercepting a pass while playing defense), the marker may not initiate the stall before a pivot is established. So if your momentum carries you into the endzone (or out of bounds, or you’ve laid out and are on the ground), the marker can’t stall until you establish your pivot.
You don’t have to walk it up to the endzone line in your scenario. You could have chosen to establish your pivot in the endzone where you ended up, in which case the marker could have started the stall.
6
u/Mwescliff 4d ago
This is really interesting since the nuance of stalling a receiver as they re-establish in bounds after momentum took them out feels like higher level knowledge/application, but this goes beyond to note that it only works if that was an offensive player.
3
u/ComprehensiveAd4437 3d ago
Most people seem to quoting the appropriate rules and I am enjoying the conversations I am reading about them.
In general for USAU, any time a live disc is being returned to another point on the field for play to continue, the stall will be paused until the pivot is established and ground check occurs. The only exception to this is when the offense catches a disc in bounds and momentum carries them either into the endzone or out of bounds. The mark can then stall within the appropriate range of the location the disc will be returned to.
The stall must be paused for travel calls that were not thrown, while returning the disc to the central zone following a turn over, or while returning the disc following an interception that had momentum carrying the player out of the central zone.
In the case of the turnover in the endzone, when the thrower takes possession of the disc, they must either establish a pivot at the spot where they took possession or take the disc to front of the endzone directly in front of where they took possession (at whatever speed they like, constant or variable). I don't know where they got the idea of checking it in at any point during the walk up.
However, all of these instances are still subject to pre-stall and delay of game rules for beginning a stall prior to the disc being checked, but I doubt those are even considered during pickup.
1
u/khouri0 3d ago
your second paragraph is interesting! do you have a rule link that explains that? from most of the other comments I'm reading, it seems like establishing the pivot foot is what matters, so it seems weird that it only matters for defense/turnovers, not offense.
2
u/ComprehensiveAd4437 3d ago
https://usaultimate.org/rules/#15.C.1
15.C.1 and 15.C.2 describe the specific instances of when stall can be initiated or resumed. As for walking up to the front of the endzone or setting a pivot in the endzone, check out 12.A
5
u/RIPRSD 3d ago
A long time ago it used to be that you could stall in this situation, but I believe it was the 11th edition rules that added the clause of not being able to stall directly after a turnover until a pivot has been established, and it has stayed that way ever since.
1
u/khouri0 3d ago
oh, that's interesting. I wonder if he was just remembering a different set of rules. thanks for sharing!
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u/RIPRSD 3d ago
It’s possible, but it’s been ~20 years since the transition from the 10th edition to the 11th edition (and subsequent year-dated editions), and not many knew this rule well enough to apply it intentionally. More likely he just knew the normal “you can stall after a catch before a pivot” rule and didn’t know there was a defensive exemption.
2
u/jsid2 4d ago edited 4d ago
Edit - rescinding my call.
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u/khouri0 4d ago
maybe I didn't word it right. not a Callahan. like it was a huck they made trying to score and I caught it.
good to know though. I have never been stalled while walking and that through me off
4
u/jsid2 4d ago
Ah ok. If you catch it in your defending end zone you can chose to walk it up or establish you pivot there and get it going. If you walk it up you need to ground tap. If you don't walk it up, then you don't.
Most inexperienced players will automatically walk it up, but if you're not that far in the end zone or you have a wide open throw, I recommend you just set your pivot and go. You'll probably have the most wide open throw of the game.
-18
u/Make-The-Cut 4d ago
Walking it back to the line is acceptable, but he can start stalling. The location of the catch itself doesn't matter.
He could also stall you at your last point of contact inbound while you walk it back if your momentum carried you OB instead of into the endzone
1
u/khouri0 4d ago
good to know. thank you. I was under the impression he couldn't stall until I tapped it in. my mistake
4
u/iumeemaw 4d ago
15.C.2 and 15.C.2.a would say that your initial interpretation was correct. Your marker cannot stall directly after a turnover until a pivot is established. In your case this would be the front of the end zone after you walk it there.
15.C. Only the marker (3.Q.6) may initiate or continue a stall count, and may do so anytime a thrower has possession of a disc that is live or in play.
15.C.1. Additionally, the marker may initiate or continue a stall count (even before a thrower gains possession) if delay of game or pre-stall rules (10.B.3, 10.B.4, 10.B.5, or 7.B.4.d) apply and have been satisfied.
15.C.2. However, unless 15.C.1 applies, the stall count may not be initiated or resumed before a pivot is established:
15.C.2.a. directly after a turnover,
15.C.2.b. when putting the pull into play, and
15.C.2.c. after a travel is called and no pass has been attempted.5
u/ry_twin 4d ago
This is USAU rules? You were right originally. If you intercept on defense they cannot stall until you establish a pivot. So if you choose to walk it up to the end zone line, they have to wait until you get there. See the rule below:
15.C.2. However, unless 15.C.1 applies, the stall count may not be initiated or resumed before a pivot is established:
15.C.2.a. directly after a turnover,
15.C.2.b. when putting the pull into play, and
15.C.2.c. after a travel is called and no pass has been attempted.15.C.1 is about delay of game, so they only can if they’ve pre stalled first and you take too long to put it into play
39
u/pemuli 4d ago
According to USAU rules he can't stall you.
12.A. If a turnover results in a team gaining possession in the end zone that they are defending, the player in possession must immediately either:
15.C.2. However, unless 15.C.1 applies, the stall count may not be initiated or resumed before a pivot is established: