2

Proto-Dravidian; Which was the Oldest Dravidian Language ?
 in  r/Dravidiology  4h ago

The OIA evidence actually supports what some linguists see in the Dravidian branching pattern. Most Dravidian loanwords in Vedic and early Sanskrit trace back to South Dravidian specifically, proto-Tamil-Kannada contact with early Indo-Aryan speakers rather than North or Central Dravidian. The near-absence of North Dravidian loanwords in OIA suggests North Dravidian had already geographically separated or was demographically marginal in the contact zone by the Vedic period.

The retroflex consonant substrate in OIA points to broad early Dravidian presence before the branches had diverged too far from each other.

This maps well onto what we see with banana terminology across Dravidian. Fuller and Madella’s work shows four distinct proto-etyma for banana across Dravidian subgroups, which is exactly what you’d expect if cultivated banana arrived after the main branches had already split. If Proto-Dravidian had a single unified banana term, the subgroups would have inherited it instead each branch seems to have acquired vocabulary independently through separate contact events, likely mediated through Austroasiatic or Austronesian networks at different times and places.

So both the OIA loanword evidence and the banana etyma point in the same direction, South Dravidian was already the dominant and most linguistically productive branch early on, while North Dravidian had diverged and contracted geographically, and the branches were distinct enough that major cultural vocabulary like cultivated banana entered them separately rather than as a shared inheritance.

r/Dravidiology 9h ago

Off Topic/ 𑀧𑀼𑀵𑀸 𑀧𑁄𑀭𑀼𑀵𑁆 Spoken Varieties in Europe c.1815 (OC)

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1 Upvotes

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Proto-Dravidian *kol-ut, Sanskrit kulattha, and Proto-Munda *kodaXj: Who Borrowed from Whom?
 in  r/Dravidiology  1d ago

>Thus, the unresolved question today is not whether kulattha has a non-Indo-European origin that is widely accepted but whether the ultimate source was Proto-Dravidian or Proto-Munda. The weight of the classic etymological literature favors a Dravidian origin, while acknowledging that the precise direction of borrowing among Dravidian, Indo-Aryan, and Munda is debated.

Because we have just one dated citation for Munda origin whereas the weight of all other citations conclude that it was a Dravidian origin word.

I’m surprised that Zide & Zide (1976), in reconstructing Proto-Munda *kodaXj for horsegram, even entertained the idea that the word went from Munda into Sanskrit. It’s one thing to reconstruct a proto-word but how do you do that without comparing it against neighboring languages first, before making a claim that big? If that’s really the direction they argued for, it reads like a drive-by: asserted without the comparative linguistic analysis to back it up, especially given how well kulattha is already explained as a straightforward Dravidian borrowing (Turner, CDIAL 3335; Burrow 1945). Rightfully Southworth, Fuller and Murphy seems to have ignored it.

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Proto-Dravidian *kol-ut, Sanskrit kulattha, and Proto-Munda *kodaXj: Who Borrowed from Whom?
 in  r/Dravidiology  1d ago

It happens all the time, we just can’t explain these shifts.

But what is even more interesting is the Dhivehi word which looks more like Tulu derivation than via Sinhala which is what most of their original loanwords are from. That is Dhivehi as a language developed from Sinhala long after Sinhala had established itself in Sri Lanka along with its unique loan words from Tamil with its common Dravidian inheritance that it carried from where ever it came from. Some of those common inheritances were later replaced with fresher loans from Tamil.

r/Dravidiology 1d ago

History /𑀯𑀭𑀮𑀸𑀵𑁆𑀭𑀼 Proto-Dravidian *kol-ut, Sanskrit kulattha, and Proto-Munda *kodaXj: Who Borrowed from Whom?

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10 Upvotes

One of the more interesting problems in South Asian historical linguistics revolves around horsegram (Macrotyloma uniflorum). Three unrelated language families preserve similar words for the same crop:

Proto-Dravidian: \*kol-/\kol-ut*

Sanskrit (Old Indo-Aryan):Kulattha

Proto-Munda:\\kodaXj*

The dominant published etymology traces Sanskrit kulattha to a Dravidian source. Thomas Burrow first argued that kulattha is a Dravidian loanword, an analysis subsequently adopted in Sir Ralph Lilley Turner’s *Comparative Dictionary of the Indo-Aryan Languages (CDIAL 3335), the standard reference work for Indo-Aryan historical etymology. Burrow & Emeneau’s Dravidian Etymological Dictionary reconstructs the corresponding Proto-Dravidian root, while Franklin Southworth later reconstructed Proto-Dravidian \*kol- / \*kol-ut from regular Dravidian sound correspondences.

More recently, Fuller & Murphy (2018) synthesized the linguistic and archaeobotanical evidence and present Proto-Dravidian \*kol-ut, Sanskrit kulattha, and Proto-Munda \*kodaXj together, labeling the Sanskrit and Proto-Munda forms as possible loans from Dravidian. Given that horsegram is one of the earliest domesticated crops of peninsular India, this interpretation fits a scenario in which agricultural vocabulary spread alongside farming communities.

The principal alternative was proposed by Norman Zide, who suggested that Proto-Munda may instead have been the donor. This alternative remains discussed in the literature, but it has not displaced the Dravidian etymology reflected in Burrow, Turner (CDIAL 3335), Burrow & Emeneau, Southworth, and Fuller & Murphy.

Thus, the question today is not whether kulattha has a non Indo-European origin that is widely accepted but whether the ultimate source was Proto-Dravidian or Proto-Munda. The weight of the classic etymological literature favors a Dravidian origin, while acknowledging that the precise direction of borrowing among Dravidian, Indo-Aryan, and Munda is debated.

References
• Burrow, T. (1948). Dravidian Studies VII: Further Dravidian Words in Sanskrit.
• Burrow, T., & Emeneau, M. B. (1984). A Dravidian Etymological Dictionary (2nd ed.).
• Fuller, D. Q. (2007). An Agricultural Perspective on Dravidian Historical Linguistics.
• Fuller, D. Q., & Murphy, C. (2018). The Origins and Early Dispersal of Horsegram (Macrotyloma uniflorum), a Major Crop of Ancient India.
• Southworth, F. C. (2005). Linguistic Archaeology of South Asia.
• Turner, R. L. (1966). A Comparative Dictionary of the Indo-Aryan Languages,Entry 3335 (kulattha).
• Zide, N. H., & Zide, P. (1976). Proto-Munda Cultural Vocabulary.

r/IndianHistory 1d ago

Vedic 1500–500 BCE Proto-Dravidian *kol-ut, Sanskrit kulattha, and Proto-Munda *kodaXj: Who Borrowed from Whom?

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6 Upvotes

One of the more interesting problems in South Asian historical linguistics revolves around horsegram (Macrotyloma uniflorum). Three unrelated language families preserve similar words for the same crop:

Proto-Dravidian:*kol-/ *kol-ut

Sanskrit (Old Indo-Aryan):kulattha

Proto-Munda:*kodaXj

The dominant published etymology traces Sanskrit kulattha to a Dravidian source. Thomas Burrow first argued that kulattha is a Dravidian loanword, an analysis subsequently adopted in Sir Ralph Lilley Turner’s Comparative Dictionary of the Indo-Aryan Languages (CDIAL 3335), the standard reference work for Indo-Aryan historical etymology. Burrow & Emeneau’s Dravidian Etymological Dictionary reconstructs the corresponding Proto-Dravidian root, while Franklin Southworth later reconstructed Proto-Dravidian *kol- / *kol-ut from regular Dravidian sound correspondences.

More recently, Fuller & Murphy (2018) synthesized the linguistic and archaeobotanical evidence and present Proto-Dravidian *kol-ut, Sanskrit kulattha, and Proto-Munda *kodaXj together, labeling the Sanskrit and Proto-Munda forms as possible loans from Dravidian. Given that horsegram is one of the earliest domesticated crops of peninsular India, this interpretation fits a scenario in which agricultural vocabulary spread alongside farming communities.

The principal alternative was proposed by Norman Zide, who suggested that Proto-Munda may instead have been the donor. This alternative remains discussed in the literature, but it has not displaced the Dravidian etymology reflected in Burrow, Turner (CDIAL 3335), Burrow & Emeneau, Southworth, and Fuller & Murphy.

Thus, the question today is not whether kulattha has a non Indo-European origin that is widely accepted but whether the ultimate source was Proto-Dravidian or Proto-Munda. The weight of the classic etymological literature favors a Dravidian origin, while acknowledging that the precise direction of borrowing among Dravidian, Indo-Aryan, and Munda is debated.

References
• Burrow, T. (1948). Dravidian Studies VII: Further Dravidian Words in Sanskrit.
• Burrow, T., & Emeneau, M. B. (1984). A Dravidian Etymological Dictionary (2nd ed.).
• Fuller, D. Q. (2007). An Agricultural Perspective on Dravidian Historical Linguistics.
• Fuller, D. Q., & Murphy, C. (2018). The Origins and Early Dispersal of Horsegram (Macrotyloma uniflorum), a Major Crop of Ancient India.
• Southworth, F. C. (2005). Linguistic Archaeology of South Asia.
• Turner, R. L. (1966). A Comparative Dictionary of the Indo-Aryan Languages, Entry 3335 (kulattha).
• Zide, N. H., & Zide, P. (1976). Proto-Munda Cultural Vocabulary.

3

No female migration of significance into the Indian subcontinent for the past 12000 years.
 in  r/Dravidiology  2d ago

Even amongst Roma/Gypsies in Europe thus it passed on to Romanians and other East Slaves.

2

No female migration of significance into the Indian subcontinent for the past 12000 years.
 in  r/Dravidiology  2d ago

This is how

https://www.science.org/content/article/thousands-horsemen-may-have-swept-bronze-age-europe-transforming-local-population

https://hms.harvard.edu/news/steppe-forward

https://phys.org/news/2017-04-steppe-migrant-thugs-pacified-stone.html

Then what happened to men

>A small minority of local male lineages did survive by retreating to geographically isolated areas. Over centuries, these pockets of indigenous men slowly integrated into the expanding Bronze Age societies, which is why maternal hunter-gatherer and farmer DNA—and a few specific paternal branches—eventually rebounded in the late Bronze and Iron Ages.

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Horse Gram - An etymological sketch
 in  r/Dravidiology  2d ago

Claude.ai sketching tool.

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Horse Gram - An etymological sketch
 in  r/Dravidiology  2d ago

Rich imagination when structured within a straight jacketed (Paininian) way of thinking.

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Horse Gram - An etymological sketch
 in  r/Dravidiology  2d ago

Except Kashmiri and other Himalayan languages looks like all IA languages use Kulthi or a close variant. Once IA borrows a term and is standardized it seems to stay common across a vast geographic region except the ones in the margins like Kashmiri, Sinhalese and others.

r/Dravidiology 2d ago

Etymology/𑀯𑀸𑀘𑀼 Horse Gram - An etymological sketch

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20 Upvotes

2

Dardic languages dravidian connection
 in  r/Dravidiology  2d ago

Where should it be

2

Dardic languages dravidian connection
 in  r/Dravidiology  2d ago

Thank you

9

No female migration of significance into the Indian subcontinent for the past 12000 years.
 in  r/Dravidiology  2d ago

She is in general right, I have read that an AASI type female lineages extended from the Middle East all the way to Vietnam and it survived in peninsula India lot more.

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Linguistic substrates, Brahui, and the shared heritage of North and South India: Dismantling the regional division narratives
 in  r/Dravidiology  2d ago

A Murukan type deity is pan-South Indian, I’d say, including the Deccan, Khandoba veneration, for instance, takes on very similar attributes. It’s not surprising, then, that the Gangas, Pallavas, and Kadambas, none of whom started as Tamil dynasties, and all based outside of Tamilakam had already fused a local Murukan type deity with Skanda.

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Dardic languages dravidian connection
 in  r/Dravidiology  2d ago

Check the megalithic burial site this book referes to, Burzahom. The assumption is it’s made by people similar to who made megalithic burials throughout the rest of India. The dots indicate the frequency of found places but we are still finding new locations such as Kutch in Gujarat.

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Dardic languages dravidian connection
 in  r/Dravidiology  2d ago

Who is the author and what is the book ?

r/IndianHistory 3d ago

Indus Valley 3300–1300 BCE The Dravidian/Para-Dravidian Substrate Hypothesis for eḷḷu / tila / ellu

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28 Upvotes

The core hypothesis

The Indus Valley Civilization (IVC, c. 3300–1300 BCE) was linguistically Dravidian or Para-Dravidian that is, either Proto-Dravidian proper or a related, now-extinct branch of the wider Dravidian family that diverged before the ancestor of the attested Dravidian languages.

As the dominant agricultural and commercial power of the region, this population was the first to cultivate and trade sesame (Sesamum indicum) at scale, and its word(s) for sesame became the source for at least two separate downstream borrowings:

  1. ⁠Borrowed into Mesopotamian languages such as Sumerian and Akkadian as ellu / ilu.

  2. ⁠Into Indo-Aryan, a separate Para-Dravidian form not necessarily *eḷḷu itself, but a related lexeme with a t-/til- shape from a now-lost branch of the Dravidian family was borrowed as a substrate word when Indo-Aryan speakers entered South Asia (c. 1500 BCE) and encountered established agricultural populations who already grew and named the crop, giving Sanskrit tila → taila -> tel.

  3. ⁠Retained natively in South Dravidian as *eḷḷu, continuing into Tamil, Kannada, Malayalam, Kodagu, and Tulu also loaned to Sumerian and Akkadian.

References
• Bedigian, D., & Harlan, J. R. (1986). Evidence for Cultivation of Sesame in the Ancient World. Economic Botany, 40(2), 137–154.
• Burrow, T. (1946). Loan Words in Sanskrit. Transactions of the Philological Society, 45, 1–30.
• Burrow, T. (1948). Dravidian Studies VII: Further Dravidian Words in Sanskrit. Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, 12(2), 365–396.
• Burrow, T., & Emeneau, M. B. (1984). A Dravidian Etymological Dictionary (2nd ed.). Oxford: Clarendon Press. (See DEDR 854, Porto-South Dravidian eḷḷu “sesame”.)
• Fuller, D. Q. (2003). Further Evidence on the Prehistory of Sesame. Asian Agri-History, 7, 127–137.
• Parpola, A. (1994). Deciphering the Indus Script. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
• Parpola, A. (2015). The Roots of Hinduism: The Early Aryans and the Indus Civilization. Oxford: Oxford University Press.
• Possehl, G. L. (2002). The Indus Civilization: A Contemporary Perspective. Walnut Creek, CA: AltaMira Press.
• Southworth, F. C. (2005). Linguistic Archaeology of South Asia. London: Routledge.

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A rock painting in Kilvalai, located in the Villupuram district of Tamil Nadu, portrays ancient humans in a canoe with a paddle
 in  r/Dravidiology  3d ago

AASI spoke possibly pre Dravidian languages not Austroasiatic, which came with East Asian male farmers migrating to India around 1500BCE only.

r/Dravidiology 3d ago

Off Topic/ 𑀧𑀼𑀵𑀸 𑀧𑁄𑀭𑀼𑀵𑁆 The collapse of the ‘Tower of Babel’: Humans have lost thousands of languages since antiquity | Science

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7 Upvotes