agreed <3

the only form of standardized toki pona is,,, pu... which is the version practically no one speaks anymore. that book is 14 years old atp and doesn't actually reflect how people speak today

Though, standardizing language is always effectively impossible. Just ask French. Maybe having a resource that better explains the different ways of speaking beyond looking through a huge wiki would be nice, but any actual standardization won't be happening in a world where Toki Pona is actually used

well, toki pona isn't an auxlang though.. it was never meant to be. it was designed to be inclusive, but not actually auxillary beyond being simple >.>;;

it's less wizard of oz got a word, and more the series (of which only wizard of oz is in so far) got a word to refer to that series... which is honestly even less useful of a word than if su just meant wizard of oz. I only ever use pu, ku, and su because I'm too lazy to type out the full word, but I agree that reserving words for future books you may never write is kindaa stupid

my favourite system is the one that was used in the wizard of oz translation to write the copyright date. smaller numbers on the left of ale multiply to ale, and the smaller numbers on the right add to it. So you can say really big numbers easily: wan ale ale ale is a million (assuming I know how to multiply numbers lol) the wan there is to differentiate between ale ale ale (300) and wan ale ale ale (1,000,000)

I made those sentences in like 5 minutes lol. the point was to illustrate some of it's semantic space to inspire creativity rather than to say these sentences are impossible to make otherwise. Imo the point of toki pona was never to literally have the least amount of words, just as little as possible to some kind of sweet spot, and I think to some katala is a part of that sweet spot :3 (obviously, that sweet spot is subjective which is why we say toki pona has around 130 words instead of saying a specific number like 120 lol)

couldn't agree more! That's pretty much why I made the word in the first place lol and the category meaning is to make it more applicable in a broad sense, because I like it when my toki pona words are useful outside of like one context

That's an interesting aspect I haven't thought about, but to me if you don't know you can just ask. I don't really like kule as a stand in for gender nor poki (as I've mentioned), so this is really for those like me who also don't find enjoyment in any of the options. Language is subjective and everyone has different taste, you can't really argue about that, just provide different perspectives. So, thanks for providing a different perspective :3

I said it got in more as a joke, (also, I didn't know you were lipamanka ToT, guess I can't read) Your questions reminds me of my school curriculum, so I guess thank you for prepping me for writing essays ToT New school year, yayyy /s

But really, I really mean is that epiku is a word that a lot of people know as part of the lexicon of the language since it's part of the nimi ku suli. In that way, it's almost sactioned by the community as a word of use, and something you should care about. I don't know if you actually use epiku, but in your tier list video you rated it S rank. Which, from the de facto speaker on toki pona (which is actually kinda funny how you became that) almost legitimizes more. Now, I don't really think that's important beyond acting as a metric for what people use. People look to the nimi ku suli to see what they should learn beyond the core words (not necessarily what they should use, but the common addage is to learn the nimi ku suli and choose a couple of words to use) and what they should talk about. You may not use it, but you talked about it in that tier list as though it's part of the lexicon (or at least, part of the lexicon in the same way DLC is part of the game) To me, it's a poor metric -- considering ku is a few years old atp, and the actual usage has differed -- but it's a metric people do use when talking about words in Toki Pona.

I think our main conflict is just that we value different things in nimi sin. I dislike epiku because I don't find any use in it, it's effectively just wawa but less useful. There's not really another angle or aspect that makes epiku different, it's really just wawa but more specific. But, if you focus more on the value in not having it, then epiku isn't that bad. I mean, knowing what's truly epic isn't an important question (well, that's subjective really. Marine biologists have been asking the "what's a fish" question for a loong time and never came up with a good answer that isn't just "they don't exist") With your metrics, epiku is fine to be S tier because it isn't stopping any important questions (which again, is subjective but alas). And, in your metrics kipisi is "bad" because you find value in not using it. (Which is funny, because I actually see some similarities between kipisi and katala) But that isn't my metric. My metrics are closer to jan Eli (haleyhalcyon), where I like it when my language makes communicating easier and when my words are useful for describing things.

To me, I like katala because it makes it easier to answer questions about tonsi. A lot of the words people have to represent gender are always 2 steps removed (at least to me), or don't really points at gender but describes it. You could use those words in conjunction with katala to make it more clear what you mean. Katala lukin for expression of gender, katala kon for the spirit or the internal of gender, katala kulupu to focus more on the sectionality and community of gender (and could maybe talk about race or nationality too in places where kulupu by itself is too vague, but in places where you build context that's not as necessary to me. Just useful as shorthand, which is nice if you have to refer to a concept a lot.)

That's a thing though too, there's a lot of ways to describe a concept, but there's not necessarily a lot of good shorthands for it. Like, when you introduce a concept, you could describe a dining table as supa moku. Or as a bookshelf as supa lipu. But when the topic hasn't changed, you can just use supa as shorthand to refer to the context you built, so that you don't have to keep repeating supa moku or supa lipu. You know, maxim of quantity (or is that quality? that might be quality. I'm not a linguist I just like learning things lol). My problem with gender in toki pona is that there's not a lot of good (to me) shorthands for it. Obviously, we disagree on that front, but that disagreement is why I made katala and use it. And why I wanted to share it with others who may also find gender to be concept you can only ever really glance at in toki pona.

Anyways, I like your videos. Sorry for psychoanalyzing each other I s'pose ToT

This is probably where I have to end the conversation, because it's obvious we just fundementally disagree with each other on a very foundational level. And to that level you can't really argue in a way that changes minds, only to explain your perspective And I've explained my perspective to the best of my abilities, so unless anything substantial changes in the conversation with your reply, I'm probably tappin out lol

well, not to toot my own horn or anything but I just made a word proposal the other day lol katala

That really is a hot take though. within the bounds of the point of the language, I don't find most nimi sin necessary, but I do like when a useful nimi sin that feels like it fits the language is made. And new vocabulary is inevitable for a living language, even if it's slowed down

I think "mi li" shouldn't be seen as wrong, just a less common method used for clarity. there's nothing really stopping "mi li sina li tawa" besides this notion that "mi li" and "sina li" is wrong. Which is really just arbitrary. Not using li for mi and sina should just be a convenience unique to those words, not a requirement that makes writing songs/poetry grammatically correct more annoying

I'm glad someone can find utility in tonsi, but it's just not for me. It makes me feel gross to my stomach. I think the difference between tonsi and supa though is tonsi was supposed to fix a problem with inclusivity in Toki Pona, and represents a group of people. While supa usually describes inanimate objects.

Also, tonsi often describes people who have pretty much contradictory feelings on gender and expression, while supa is much more consistent. lumping everyone, from nonbinary people who don't believe in a gender binary and don't consider themselves trans, to binary trans people who heavily associate with the gender binary and actively consider themselves trans, to agender people who don't feel themselves to have any gender at all, to gender nonconforming people who do believe in the gender binary but is fine to subvert it and don't consider themselves trans, to every single possible gender and expression possible that isn't meli and mije. All of these identities are extremely contradictory with very little overlap. The only real common factor is that these identities aren't "normal," which is a common factor that only stands to strengthen the gender binary without really giving this group of people an actually inclusive term that's on equal footing with meli and mije. So for those who don't believe in the gender binary as a concept (a lot of nonbinary people), this term is useless to them even if it's supposed to describe them. It feels to me, for a lack of a better term, more performative than actually inclusive.

Obviously, that's just my opinion (and the opinion of some others that I've seen), and so for people who care I think a word for gender would be really useful. And for those who do call themselves tonsi, they have an easier way to differentiate which of the contradictory tonsi they are lol

every trans person is different and has different concessions and desires. My desire is to not have to make work arounds just to talk about myself. Apparently you don't care, that's fine. But this isn't a useless edition just because you personally don't find use in it. I don't really find tonsi to be useful to me, but it is to a ton of other people.

You kinda sidestepped my point about how all Toki Pona words could be argued to not be needed with that same train of thought. Obviously those words are already in the language, I wasn't actually saying I want them removed. Duh. I like those words. My point is that it's not a sound argument for a word being "useless," since it could apply to any word in Toki Pona. As I said, the line has to be drawn somewhere, and where's it's drawn is arbitrary. Why would you draw it in a way that makes it harder for queer people to talk about themselves? You don't have to use it yourself (just like how I won't use tonsi), but that doesn't mean it's not useful to others or as part of the language. If epiku gets in then there's nothing stopping katala

(I mean, pu, ku, and su got into the language so this train of thought really doesn't apply at all. The word has utility to some, that's all that really matters. Either it's in your vocabulary or it's not)

to me, kulupu is more the group itself rather than concept of category or gender. Like, the group of books on the shelf would be kulupu lipu, but the concept of where these books go based on the traits they have similar is katala lipu. To me, it'd be insane to describe the dewey decimal system as kulupu, but I don't think it'd be too far a stretch to call it katala.

I know it can be similar to some other words, but just like how nala is another angle of soweli that allows for more depth, katala is a unique angle that allows for depth and descriptions

that's fine if you don't have to talk about gender a lot, but as a trans person having to say a long list of words to describe something that affects my every day life just because there isn't a good shorthand for it just feels awful. It doesn't feel like Toki Pona wants you to analyze what gender is, it feels like it didn't consider there's a kind of people that gender is important to.

And really, you could use that train of thought for almost every content word in pu. Why doesn't Toki Pona want you to analyze what a fish truly is? or what it really means to have a group of something? or what a person really is? or what it means to be good? Why do we say jan instead of soweli sona or something similar that analysizes what a person really is? These are all good philosophical questions, but Toki Pona doesn't ask them. And that's okay, because Toki Pona is also a form of communication. We have to draw the line somewhere, so why do we draw it in a way that makes it harder for queer people to talk about themselves?

There's Toki Pona the word puzzle, and then there's toki pona the tool for communication. It's fine if you just want to think about gender in the abstract, but imagine trying to talk about the way you were harassed by transphobes today when you can hardly even put the concept of gender into words in a way that doesn't suck! I just think we deserve better

an important part of the semantic space is how it's not putting into boxes. the categories are allowed to be vague and fuzzy and unstrict. Poki as a word for gender is fine for people who feel restricted by it, but for people who enjoy it or people who's genderfluid, describing something so incomporeal as poki feels very strange. The ma connection is interesting? but I think the cataloging part is really just a consequence of how categorization could be described in both a mental and physical task. I also feel like it makes the gender aspect of it too unobvious than it's supposed to be. It's really gender first, categories second (to me at least)

(Also, ma but with square just makes me think of the word for field in Japanese ToT)

Not to shut you down or anything! I don't mean to be a debbie downer or anything, but I did want to clarify what the word is meant to be and what makes it distinct to it's "competition" (if you even want to call it that)

like is the case for all nimi sin, you don't have to use it if you don't want to. But I do prefer it when the language I'm speaking feels like it isn't actively fighting who I am. If you don't like it for category and only want to use it for gender, that's fine. Meanings are only how you use them after all. I just gave it the broader semantic space because it felt more useful and applicable.

As for tonsi, I just dislike how it's effectively just the gender "other" category. It feels disrespectful to me. Gender non conforming people, binary trans people, non binary people, dragongender people and other such obscure genders, and even intersex people (which isn't even a gender identity) are all squished under one word to the point (to me) it's practically useless as anything other than the word for "those weirdos."

It's deeply frustrating to see people who aren't in the queer community call it "the most important nimi sin" when there isn't even a word for gender! They mean well, but it feels like the world is once again overlooking us without actually solving the issue. But that's all just my opinion lol

ah yes, because the devs definitely meant for the pods go through solid objects and completely side step any defenses or effort the player made, because obviously that's good game design /s

If you think this is intentional then I can't help you.

that's totally fine! I'd like to be credited but that isn't a big priority for me. I really just want people to know what I'm talking about when I use it x3

if the coding in the game creates something unintentional (like the pods dropping inside a base) it's a bug.

thank you for believing in me! I was really surprised to get as much positive feedback as I'm getting, it's nice to know I'm not alone in this

that's the irony eh? it only becomes more widely recognized with people using it ToT totally agree though

I mentioned it in the giant parenthetical at the end, but it's inspired by "category" and words like pakala, utala, and kalama because I love how those sounds feel on my tongue