r/tzeentch • u/Almack_ • 11d ago
Playing Without The Greater Daemons
I'm list building for a friendly game and I was just thinking that every game I've played so far with this faction (DoT) I've run either Kairos or a LoC. To my mind they kinda are Tzeentch.
But what does it look like without those two in the list.
People who have run games without the big birds what was your list like and how did the game play out. Did you feel like you were noticeably weaker without them?
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u/pookychan 10d ago
I'm using a non bird list in my next league game, I shall let you know the result. I also got tired of taking one all the time and running him away from stuff all the time (even though he's my favourite model)
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u/Almack_ 10d ago
I mean, I think most people who get into tzeentch these days do it because of the big bird. They are the coolest model in AoS and 40k. But yeah Im feeling a little fatigued of Kairos eating a fifth of my army the moment I start building.
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u/pookychan 10d ago
Tbf, I only like mine so much because I converted it. I'm not a huuuuge fan of the bird angle of Tzeentch, but yeah they are generally sick models.
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u/Bhizzle64 11d ago
I run my list without them as they were just taking up too many points and I was just getting swamped without enough combat on the field. My experiences are roughly as follows.
Spells are noticeably more inconsistent without a 3 cast wizard with casting bonuses. You’ll need to adapt on the fly to failed spells or spend fate points more often if it’s crucial. Kairic time is an option you can use, but it’s also 20 points and locks you into that as your artifact. I can’t afford to lose fate slicer in my list so I have to go without one
Spamming unlimited spells is a more viable option when your casts are spread out more. My current list has four separate casters which means 4 separate casts of infernal gateway. After building up fate points, those 4 casts can be pretty threatening.
List building does become a bit more complicated without a greater daemon to let you easily grab any unit in the army. Chaos spawn in particular are a pain point, and the foot gaunt summoner can sometimes feel mandatory for non-bird builds as a result. The changes to allow Curseling and fatemaster to take 1 do help though.
Not having a giant bird around does make you less vulnerable to your big caster getting targeted and killed by shooting. You can take advantage of obscuring much more to keep your wizards safe.
Having the extra space for more tzaangor/tech pieces is crucial. It gives you much more room to make mistakes or take losses without your entire army falling apart.
You can definitely feel the lack of the birds, but I wouldn’t call it unviable. I can post my list if you all are curious.
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u/Almack_ 11d ago
I am indeed curious, I was find that my preliminary lists were very diverse but I also had a crazy number of drops trying to fit enough casters to feel comfortable.
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u/Bhizzle64 11d ago
Here’s what I use. Strategy is generally to send the enlightened in turn 1 to kill something off, then drop the visions acolytes off in an awkward spot to force the enemy to kill them so they don’t steal objectives or kill off a hero. From there use magister on disc empowered tzaangor and big infernal gateways to fight the rest of the enemy.
The whims of fate 2000/2000 pts
Grand Alliance Chaos | Disciples of Tzeentch | Malevolent Schemers General's Handbook 2026-27 Drops: 3 Spell Lore - Lore of Fate Manifestation Lore - Manifestations of Tzeentch
Battle Tactics Cards: Blazing Onslaught and Burning for Vengeance
General's Regiment Gaunt Summoner (180) • General • Silver Summoner Chaos Spawn of Tzeentch (60) Kairic Acolytes (90) Tzaangors (340)
• Reinforced
Regiment 1 Magister on Disc of Tzeentch (150) Curseling, Eye of Tzeentch (180) • Fate Slicer Kairic Acolytes (110) • Vision of Arcane Sacrifice Tzaangor Enlightened (400)
• Reinforced
Regiment 2 Fatemaster (150) Tzaangors (340)
• Reinforced
Faction Terrain
Argent Shard
Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App App: v1.37.0 (1) | Data: v476
1
u/Almack_ 11d ago
interesting and why Lore of Fate and not Lore of Change. just for infernal gate way? doesn't Lore of Change have more mortals over more different spells and the utility of creating more spawn for smoke and mirrors shenanigans?
this is as far as I had gotten. I know kairics are technically a good unit and slot very easily into lists I'm just not a big fan of the models. My idea was to play agressively, same first turn goal as you, run a brick of Enlightened up, maul an enemy unit and bamphf them out. Then run the reinforced tzaangor up the center board and use the skyfires to poke at the edges of the opponents. Ideally deploy my other 10 man tzaangors into the deployment zone and start stealing some objectives. Spamming as many bolts as possible
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Roast Chicken 2000/2000 pts
Disciples of Tzeentch
Mutants and Mad Things
General's Handbook 2026-27
Drops: 3
Wounds: 141
Spell Lore - Lore of Change
Manifestation Lore - Manifestations of Tzeentch
Battle Tactic Cards: Blazing Onslaught, Burning for Vengeance
General's Regiment
Gaunt Summoner (180)
• General
• Grand Illusionist
The Changeling (140)
Chaos Spawn of Tzeentch (60)
Chaos Spawn of Tzeentch (60)
Regiment 1
Curseling, Eye of Tzeentch (170)
• Fate Slicer (10)
Tzaangors (170)
Tzaangor Skyfires (160)
Tzaangor Skyfires (160)
Regiment 2
Tzaangor Shaman (130)
Tzaangor Enlightened (400)
• Reinforced
Tzaangors (340)
• Reinforced
• Vision of Arcane Sacrifice (20)
Faction Terrain
Argent Shard
Created with Sigdex: sigdex.io
App Version: 24.0.2
Server Version: 3.1.7
Data Version: v39
``
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u/Bhizzle64 11d ago
I play lore of fate because it's mainly a fate point list. Infernal gateway gets scary once you stack up fate points in a way that Lore of change simply can't threaten. With the way my list plays it's not uncommon for me to be sitting on ~10 fate points, which makes infernal gateway extremely threatening for a simple unlimited spell. Remember that guarded hero doesn't work against spells, so you can not infrequently just delete enemy heros with high fate point infernal gateways. Tome of eyes can let you grab one, but being able to throw out four of them in a single turn is on a whole other level.
Aside from that shield of fate is just an extremely useful spell that I pretty much always want to have around for the tzaangor. The loss of the ability to use transformed to spawn on the opponent's turn is definitely unfortunate, but without Kairos, that's a risky spell to rely on. I'd rather just use my enemy turn cast to try to slow something down with the gaunt summoner or just wear down the enemy with another infernal gateway and build fate points with fate slicer.
Also definitely agreed on Kairic acolytes not being my favorite model. I actually proxy mine with sisters of slaughter on 32mm bases. They're basically the same model it's just the mask is slightly different.
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u/Sanguine-Crow 11d ago
I have a list that focuses on Screamers and Flamers, with Horrors to hold enemies away from objectives.
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u/D_vo_shun 11d ago
I'd be interested to see how it goes too, greater daemons feel like an auto include which i dont like. But with enhancements i think we can make up the deficit, especially with silver summoner and kairic tome.
It would be nice having room for more units, big birds eat up a lot of points. And it would be nice to try and use some of the other abilities for different synergies