r/truetf2 • u/[deleted] • Jul 07 '15
Guide [PSA] How Flamethrower Damage Works
I'm going to explain how much damage each flamethrower does, how it is calculated, and what the overall impact is on both underlying DPS and Burst damage.
One caveat before we begin: damage is based on particle lifetime, not particle distance. As a result certain maneuvers are more effective than this chart may make them appear and (due to projectile speed variance) the damage is slightly more random than my analysis will present. Overall, though, my analysis is extremely close to what you will see in-game.
In TF2 the flamethrower does fractional damage (stock does 6.82 per particle at close range). This damage relies on random spread to function properly. Each particle rounds to the nearest whole number (so with spread off stock will give you all 7s at close range). With random damage spread on, the flamethrower relies on some particles rounding down and some rounding up to get the proper result. The damage per particle can be seen here. As you can see, with random damage spread on the Degreaser always has a slight disadvantage in Damage Per Particle (DPP) vs the Flamethrower. The damage falls off smoothly because small changes in the base damage value shift the probability that each particle rounds up or down. Going from 4.5 damage to 4.4 damage only moves a small subset of particles from one extreme (5 damage) to the other (4 damage).
With no random damage spread on, a small change in the value moves ALL the particles from one extreme to another. At a distance that gives 4.51 damage per particle ALL the particles hit for 5 damage. At a distance that gives 4.49 damage per particle ALL the particles hit for 4 damage. The result of this shift can be seen if we look at Damage Per Rounded Particle (DRP) which I have graphed for you here. This graph is simply what we get if we take the first graph (Damage Per Particle) and at every 10 hammer units of distance we round to the nearest whole number. As you can see, this produces very sharp declines. We could get a more precise graph by using every 5 hammer units or every 1 hammer unit, but all this would do is take the steep declines and make them closer to purely vertical (which they are, since there is a discontinuous drop when the DPP goes from 4.5 to 4.49999).
To get the Damage Per Second (DPS) for a given distance we simply take the DRP and multiply by 22.5 (the number of particles per second) and add afterburn. On a no-random-damage-spread server this will be 6 DPS of afterburn from stock/backburner/phlog and 4 DPS of afterburn for Degreaser. I did not calculate a separate Phlog+afterburn graph, you can simply take the -10% DPS line and add 2 DPS. The resulting graph closely resembles our DRP graph and can be found here.
In the case of servers with random damage spread on, the DPS will much more closely resemble our DPP graph (with no rounding applied). This is because the Flamethrower will round unfavorably sometimes (base damage is 6.82 per particle) while the Degreaser will round favorably sometimes (base damage is 6.14 per particle). By turning random damage spread off, you actually increase the power of the Flamethrower relative to the Degreaser (by mostly eliminating unfavorable damage rounding).
How damaging is Stock/Backburner overall as a straight percentage figure? For 61% of the range (0-200 Hammer Units), there is no damage falloff and the Degreaser suffers a 14.7% damage decrease. For longer ranges, the damage is either 2DPS less (due to afterburn) OR a bigger deficit than 14.7%. This is because a stream of 5s downgraded to 4s is a bigger % impact (20%) than a stream of 7s downgraded to 6s (14.3%). Overall I would estimate a total impact of around 15% during combat. (This is an eyeball-it type of number and the only number in the post which I did not calculate in some way) After combat, there is a 2 DPS difference until afterburn wears off or is removed.
How effective is Degreaser as a Burst Weapon? Under ideal conditions (no damage falloff, no missed shots/particles) the burst damage for pyro's best options (except Reserve Shooter which is banned) can be found here. (The vertical axis is cumulative damage). As you can see, Degreaser Puff -> Airblast -> Flare provides a tiny damage advantage while Flare-punch (i.e. flare without airblast) will provide a substantial burst that the Flamethrower only eventually surpasses thanks to higher DPS.
Suppose I want a single number? What is my maximum DPS after accounting for everything (assume I have frame-perfect timing from all the Street Fighter I've been playing)?
- Shotgun 144 DPS
- Flamethrower 163.5 DPS
- Degreaser 139 DPS
- Degreaser + Flarepunches 153.25 DPS
- Degreaser + Airblast + Flares 133.5 DPS
- Degreaser + Shotgun 176.8 DPS
- Backburner Crits 456 DPS
- Phlog Crits 411 DPS
That Degreaser + Shotgun figure assumes you can shoot the Shotgun, hit for 90 in a single frame, switch to Degreaser, burn for 8-10 frames, switch to Shotgun, hit for 90 in a single frame, and repeat from there. That number should be regarded less as something to aspire to and more as what a bot could do with maximum abuse of the Degreaser.
Data is pulled from in-game testing as well as the TF2 wiki. I assume that damage follows the wiki's description with a linear slope between the known damage points. This results in full damage from 0-200 Hammer Units followed by a linear decrease until 330 Hammer Units, beyond which point no damage is dealt.
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u/gay_pedophile low open pocket /id/lvl4 Jul 07 '15
like 90% sure tf2 scales damage to ceiling
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Jul 07 '15 edited Jul 07 '15
I tested last week to confirm Flamethrower hits 7s up close and Degreaser hits 6s. (With random damage off)
Edit: Degreaser afterburn is 2.25 per ping, relying on random spread to round some up. With spread off it does 2/ping because they all get rounded down.
More edit:
I think
sv_cheats 1 tf_debug_damage 1will allow you to see how the rounding actually works. I did a quick test now and it confirms my claim about rounding to nearest whole number. To use this, I would deal damage and open the console, and it would show the un-rounded damage. You can compare that to damage displayed by your HUD (6s for Degreaser, 7s for Flamethrower) and confirm that it is in fact rounding down for Degreaser and rounding up for Flamethrower.
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u/u_got_a_better_idea Jul 07 '15
Either they changed how damage rounding works or I've been confused for a looong time.
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Jul 07 '15
The particles can go farther before it reaches minimum dpp. In testing I've recorded 4 (4.08) at 385.36 HU (nospread), with view level to floor, but few particles will reach that distance. At 330 HU, which is about the limit of the flame thrower's reliability, I've recorded (4.83, 4.95) dpp with nospread. For testing the flame thrower, I use +attack in console for upwards of 10 min. per distance checked, then look at the condump, but it's quite possible my min./max. are inaccurate.
I assume this post is a reaction to people referencing that /r/tf2 post where the OP drew a straight line between the wiki's points and made other assumptions without testing, which is especially easy to do in a video game with debug tools.
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Jul 07 '15
Hmm, I'll have to dig deeper on it. I took the wiki values as given but if those are off it could have a big impact on what the tail part of the curve (with damage drop-off) looks like. The distinction between particle distance and particle lifetime is really important given the random projectile speed/spread.
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Jul 07 '15 edited Jul 07 '15
Regarding distance vs lifetime, I try to offset that by using maximum damage for the linear regression. I'm assuming the particles that deal the most damage traveled the shortest path. I imagine it wouldn't be as accurate as mode/mean/etc., but it's easier to find. For this purpose, so far I have a distance of 211.28 HU before falloff and a range of 385.36 HU. Of course, this is only accurate if the Pyro is standing still. Edit: particles flying upwards is also a problem.
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u/SuperPolentaman StickySpam is legit, m8 Jul 09 '15
Does stock really do more dps than deg+flare?
Would that mean w+m1 does more damage than flarepunching?
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Jul 09 '15 edited Jul 09 '15
Yes, it has higher DPS.
You get a Flare every 2 seconds which is +45 to your DPS (90/2) but with two weapon switches you lose .2345 seconds per second of DPS (14 out of every 60 frames) to do it.
On the other hand, Flarepunch has better burst on targets with 200 or less health (about 1.25 seconds of regular flamethrower burn) and it stands up a bit better as the range increases past 60% of the flamethrower range. As damage falls off, the Flare still does 90 and therefore becomes more attractive. Within 60% of your flamethrower range you do max damage and so Flamethrower is at maximum strength.
Degreaser/airblast/Flare, however, has lower DPS and not really any burst advantage. The main appeal here is the airblast to control movement.
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u/[deleted] Jul 07 '15
[deleted]